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Got an interesting hum and buzz coming from my turntable and I believe it is a ground loop issue. 

 

So my question is how I could make the buzz more bearable? My old turntable is quiet but the new one is noisy like fly, especially when I turn the volume knob to 1 o'clock on the preamp. 

 

Have asked the seller to change to a new toneamp and went for a new set of cable, interconnection cable and still the same issue. 

 

The turntable has two arms. The other arm is noisier and both two use the same ground cable connecting to the phono stage. Would this is the issue? What option should I explore here?

 

 

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Thanks Scott but I don’t consider myself an expert! Certainly I’ve had experience with many turntable set ups but no more (and likely less) than many others here. The thing with turntable hum is that

Can you take a picture of the tonearms that shows how this shared grounding is set up? Ordinarily, each tonearm would have its own grounding scheme.

I would isolate one if the tone arms fron the TT and the preamp (nothing connected anywhere). Fire up the other arm, hear what happens? If hum. remove or install ground wire from arm to prea

That's no good, Chao.  :(

 

If your old TT was quiet then it's obviously just a (bad! :( ) problem with your new TT.

 

It would probably help people if you told us:

  • what your old TT was
  • and what your new TT is.

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, Chao said:

The turntable has two arms. The other arm is noisier and both two use the same ground cable connecting to the phono stage. Would this is the issue? What option should I explore here?

 

Is is very likely a grounding issue, yes.  However, diagnosing these problems is often a matter of trying the possible combinations.

 

- tonearms, with and without ground

- one tonearm with and one without, and the other way around

- turntable with and without ground

- tonearms isolated from turntable, or grounded to turntable, and with or without ground

- all grounded to phono preamp, or to main preamp or power amp, or not

- etc etc

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2 hours ago, Chao said:

 

The hum, buzz noise is somewhat bearable but I still want to reduce it. On some quiet tracks, it is noticeable.

 

 

You should not have to put up with any such noise!

 

2 hours ago, Chao said:

 

These are both good TTs - you shouldn't have the problem you do.  Can you return it to the dealer and/or get them to fix the problem?

 

Andy

 

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Well, i'm still in 'honeymoon' and talking to the seller everyday. He also has some ideas about this but as we are a bit far away to each others, it would be hard to troubleshooting these. My system and his are completely different and it only happens on mine.

 

It could be too near the  wall, too near the power socket, etc. But if it is the case, my old one would have the same issue too. 

 

Is it a good idea to take the turntable off and clean it??? Would it be the issue with the grounding cable as two arms linked to each other cause the issue? Or I need to get an isolate transformer, a cheat plug?

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Can you take a picture of the tonearms that shows how this shared grounding is set up? Ordinarily, each tonearm would have its own grounding scheme.

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Well, the two tonearms earthing cables are linked together in the middle. From then, a single cable is run to the ground cap on the phono preamp. Its like an Y crossroad.

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1 hour ago, Chao said:

Well, the two tonearms earthing cables are linked together in the middle. From then, a single cable is run to the ground cap on the phono preamp. Its like an Y crossroad.

If I were you Id listen and follow @Doppelganger's advice. Its probable most others (with the best of intentions) are guessing... doppelganger has experience beyond belief... If you choose to listen to anyone listen to him.

Thats the only thing I could add here.... Listen to a true expert.

Edited by ScottyPeace
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7 hours ago, ScottyPeace said:

If I were you Id listen and follow @Doppelganger's advice. Its probable most others (with the best of intentions) are guessing... doppelganger has experience beyond belief... If you choose to listen to anyone listen to him.

Thats the only thing I could add here.... Listen to a true expert.

Thanks Scott but I don’t consider myself an expert! Certainly I’ve had experience with many turntable set ups but no more (and likely less) than many others here. The thing with turntable hum is that it can be down to a multitude of reasons and guesswork and trial and error are the key to resolving it - eliminate one potential cause at a time.

 

The reason the two tonearms sharing a common ground wire intrigues me is that essentially doubles the possibility that the cause is related to this grounding scheme. Testing would require taking one tonearm and cartridge out of the equation at a time and seeing if removal from the system kills off the hum. Not sure if this is possible as I can’t picture the grounding scheme for two arms sharing a ground wire. A picture would be very helpful.

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Had a chance to take some pictures of the ground setup. @Doppelganger.

 

The other tonearm has a cartridge setup there but didn't connect to any cables at all.

 

In the end, I have tried:

- Move the turntable

- Change powerboard

- Replace cables

- Move grounding setup further away from turntable and amp

 

The interesting thing is my old turntable doesn't have hum like this, and it only has 1 tonearm which made me and the seller believed something might be wrong with the other arm or the grounding system too.

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136417952_850018509122995_90173113814041928_n.jpg

137682667_734602284096944_7297512969742761028_n.jpg

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I would isolate one if the tone arms fron the TT and the preamp (nothing connected anywhere).

Fire up the other arm, hear what happens?

If hum. remove or install ground wire from arm to preamp.

Did anything change? If not leave the earth in disconnected.

If there was change leave it in the quiet position.

If hum is still there, pull out the leads from the TT and short the terminals this should eliminate all hum.

If not its not in the TT.

If hum is gone replace one of the leads.

Hear what happens.

Remove and replace other lead, hear what happens.

Then report back😂

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Doppelganger said:

Agree with Colin - you need to test each tonearm individually to ascertain which, if either may be causing the issue.

 

I did suggest this a while back

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Well, I did try every suggestion and the hum is still there. I'm not really a techie person on TT so that is the reason im asking here.

 

The hum definitely comes from the TT. The TT has 2 tonearm, one old and one brand new. The brand new tonearm has less hum than the old one. 

I don't use the old tonearm so I just leave one cartridge over there, doesn't hook in any interconnect cables on that arm at all.

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14 hours ago, Doppelganger said:

Thanks Scott but I don’t consider myself an expert! Certainly I’ve had experience with many turntable set ups but no more (and likely less) than many others here. The thing with turntable hum is that it can be down to a multitude of reasons and guesswork and trial and error are the key to resolving it - eliminate one potential cause at a time.

 

The reason the two tonearms sharing a common ground wire intrigues me is that essentially doubles the possibility that the cause is related to this grounding scheme. Testing would require taking one tonearm and cartridge out of the equation at a time and seeing if removal from the system kills off the hum. Not sure if this is possible as I can’t picture the grounding scheme for two arms sharing a ground wire. A picture would be very helpful.

Hi Greg :-))

I didnt necessarily mean to make you out the total expert on this mate ;-)) I just know a couple of things about you... First... you wont say anything on a subject if you dont have something helpful or insightful to say... and therefore... Second... if you do actually say something its worth listening to 😁

Edited by ScottyPeace
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Alright, @Colin Rutter had kindly come over and had a look at my TT. It turned out there was a shielding issue/problem at the tonearm wire picking up noise from somewhere. 

 

I need to get the tonearm fixed or looked at :(

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11 minutes ago, Chao said:

Alright, @Colin Rutter had kindly come over and had a look at my TT.

 

:thumb:

 

11 minutes ago, Chao said:

It turned out there was a shielding issue/problem at the tonearm wire picking up noise from somewhere. 

 

I need to get the tonearm fixed or looked at :(

 

What tonearm is it?  And does it have a plug somewhere (like at the base of the pillar - which a phono cable plugs into) ... or is it continuous wire from headshell ... through the arm and then to the phono stage?

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr
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The second pic reveals the tonearm wires.

They just poke out near the rear of the wand and go into a black terminal block.

You can see the rcas in the pic.

If you touch the wires or move them the hum alters.

It really only super annoying at loudish levels.

But still shouldn't be there.

 

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@Colin Rutter Thanks for today. I just did a litter test and it seems the tonearm is not entirely the issue.

 

If I unhook the serial cable from the TT, the hum just gone.

If I hook the serial cable in, it is back. 

This happens no matter where I put the power brick. You can see the image

 

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137650609_403346537558510_7802769466896453696_n.jpg

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That box powers the turntable moving. I suspect the serial cable or the socket is the culprit here. Or the actual motor inside the turntable. The cartridge doesnt pick up noise from the box. Only when the serial cable connected to the TT to power the TT up, it picks up. Even if I leave the switch off, it still there.

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12 minutes ago, Chao said:

That box powers the turntable moving. I suspect the serial cable or the socket is the culprit here. Or the actual motor inside the turntable. The cartridge doesnt pick up noise from the box. Only when the serial cable connected to the TT to power the TT up, it picks up. Even if I leave the switch off, it still there.

 

The serial interface includes a ground.  You have found your ground loop.

 

Now, how to solve it?   What about grounding your tonearms to the metal box that the serial cable comes from?

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Just now, aussievintage said:

 

The serial interface includes a ground.  You have found your ground loop.

 

Now, how to solve it?   What about grounding your tonearms to the metal box that the serial cable comes from?

Thanks for suggestion. Could you please more specific? How can I ground my tonearms to the metal box? 

Currently, it is grounded to the phono stage and it is fine. Do I need to have another grounding cable to ground it to the metal box?

Can I change the serial cable? I hear it is specially made for this kind of thing and a bit overwhelming.

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1 minute ago, Chao said:

Thanks for suggestion. Could you please more specific? How can I ground my tonearms to the metal box? 
 

 

OK, but remember it's just something, a suggestion, to try.  I don't know if it will work, but it might.

 

2 minutes ago, Chao said:

Currently, it is grounded to the phono stage and it is fine.

 

Is it?  I thought you had a hum problem?

 

2 minutes ago, Chao said:

Do I need to have another grounding cable to ground it to the metal box?

 

No, ground it there instead of at the phono.   Move the grounding wire.  Maybe not a permanent solution.  It's just a test remember.

3 minutes ago, Chao said:

Can I change the serial cable? I hear it is specially made for this kind of thing and a bit overwhelming.

 

Who knows what the manufacturer has done...

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Also, make sure the black box, and you amp and phono preamp, are all plugged into the same power strip if you can.  That might reduce the ground loop a bit as well.

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Yes, everything is plugged into the same power strip.

 

The buzz/hum stops when I unhook the serial cable or the 12V power cable out of the black box.

The hum/buzz is on when I hook the 12v power cable to the black box and the serial cable connected to the TT motor.

 

The TT is ground on the phono stage.

 

I will try to test it to see what going on. My seller suggested to me that I move the turntable away from everything as a test, but for a permanent setup it is a bit unrealistic under my circumstance.

 

 

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Bah, grounding it to the box doesn't work. The noise is still there, maybe worse if I ground that way.

The box is called Speed Controller for the TT. Hmmm.

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Having heard the "buzz" it doesnt sound like a ground loop, it sounds like it is interference from a PS being picked up in the tonearm wiring.

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7 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said:

Having heard the "buzz" it doesnt sound like a ground loop, it sounds like it is interference from a PS being picked up in the tonearm wiring.

 

That should be demonstrable in the dealer's showroom.  Faulty and/or bad design.

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Probably completely unrelated,  but could the interference be caused by something else somewhere?

 

I recently changed my phono stage and had a similar (but not identical) humming/buzzing/static sound issue..... after a lot of head scratching, hair pulling and changing over of connections etc it turned out the be the Powerline LAN setup I had running.

 

Replaced the Powerline adapters with a Mesh Wifi throughout the house and problem solved.

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2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

That should be demonstrable in the dealer's showroom.  Faulty and/or bad design.

This is a brand new tonearm, dead on arrival? Next to the powerstrip, there is my smart power socket controllable by wifi. Would that the main cause?

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1 hour ago, Chao said:

This is a brand new tonearm, dead on arrival? Next to the powerstrip, there is my smart power socket controllable by wifi. Would that the main cause?

 

Well, not dead, but either it is not well shielded, or the motor speed control is very noisy, or something. 

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100% the issue is in the power supply has some bad shielding which make the tonearm wire pick up the noise here.

 

The problem is I can't move the power supply away as whenever I connect the TT to the power supply, no matter how far it is it would cause noise.

 

Will have a trip to the seller to give him a full idea and ask for some feedbacks. If I turn the volume down, it would be hard to notice but if I put the volume up, damn, that is annoying. Like someone riding a yatch around my house.

Edited by Chao
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4 hours ago, graham121 said:

Probably completely unrelated,  but could the interference be caused by something else somewhere?

 

I recently changed my phono stage and had a similar (but not identical) humming/buzzing/static sound issue..... after a lot of head scratching, hair pulling and changing over of connections etc it turned out the be the Powerline LAN setup I had running.

 

Replaced the Powerline adapters with a Mesh Wifi throughout the house and problem solved.

 

 @Chao ... are you running your internet over power lines?

 

Andy

 

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@andyr good suggestion but no. I don’t run internet over powerline. I have a LAN socket there but it doesn’t connect to anything at all. 

 

The power socket only has 1 socket for the power strip to all my hifi components. 

 

When I touch the motor, noise becomes louder in some place so I think there is an issue with the power supply for the TT DC motor. 

 

I don’t know how to fix it aside from sending it back to seller for help. But he told me that he didn’t get the same issue as mine, so I really have no idea.

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Just an update, it seems if i put the tonearm near the motor, the noise is louder. 

 

Is it normal?

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On 15/01/2021 at 2:07 AM, Chao said:

 

@andyr good suggestion but no. I don’t run internet over powerline.

 

 

How do you get your internet around your house, then?

 

On 15/01/2021 at 2:07 AM, Chao said:

 

I have a LAN socket there but it doesn’t connect to anything at all. 

 

 

What do you mean - 'there'?

 

On 15/01/2021 at 2:07 AM, Chao said:

 

I don’t know how to fix it aside from sending it back to seller for help. But he told me that he didn’t get the same issue as mine, so I really have no idea.

 

 

Then it looks like he's not going to be able to help you.  :(

 

Can you get Colin Rutter round again?  If not - I could probably come over (given your address says 'Melbourne').

 

Andy

 

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