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Would better amplification solve congestion ?


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11 hours ago, Telecine said:

 

Probably worth defining where the probably is, in the bass or the sub-bass frequency range:

 

image.png.e8738febd862e569f662f986d2a8672d.png

It's not relative to instruments. It's relative to the reproduction of instruments dynamically.

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Its pretty obvious too much is being asked of the speakers as they're far too small, and a 2-way, to cope with the demands of complex music played a reasonable levels.   

Did someone mention an Elektra?    

The instruments you describe have very low frequency extension, especially the organ, and require insane amounts of energy to be reproduced. The extra low frequency of digital audio is what's killing

On 14/01/2021 at 12:03 AM, Berkel said:

Would a Krell KAV 300i do the trick with my B&Ws ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

KAV400xi if you were gonna get a small Krell integrated BTW.

Edited by Wimbo
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On 14/01/2021 at 8:34 PM, sir sanders zingmore said:

 is there any reason why standmounts + subs can't reproduce complex music at reasonable levels as well as floorstanders?

 

Of course standmounts + subs can reproduce any type of music better then floorstanders, it only depends on quality of speakers and subs. As example B&W 805 with subs is going to reproduce any music better then B&W 702 S2 3-WAY Floor Standing Speakers. 

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24 minutes ago, Irek said:

Of course standmounts + subs can reproduce any type of music better then floorstanders, it only depends on quality of speakers and subs. As example B&W 805 with subs is going to reproduce any music better then B&W 702 S2 3-WAY Floor Standing Speakers. 

Don't agree with this. While it may be true in theory , in practise the standmounters are still trying to reproduce a full range signal with a small mid/bass unit and proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task. If we were able to provide a band linited signal to the standmounters , use stereo subs and integrate them correctly with a mic and software Like REW then it could work but imo for good reproduction of organ music then a large speaker with a transmission line would be easier to implement.

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12 minutes ago, Ozcall said:

proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task.

 

I agree with this.  So many times I hear systems where the bass is just a tacked-on artifact to make you feel something down low.

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On 14/01/2021 at 4:43 PM, Berkel said:

Wimbo ; you've nailed it !

Can full - scale symphony orchestra / cathedral pipe organ be REASONABLY reproduced in the home ?

Found this; some good perspective on dynamic range 2 way vis a vis 3way from a tech director/engineer at RBH speakers . about 4;25 in ..

 

 

 

 

How come we dont see as many 2 1/2 way crossover speakers anymore ? He makes some good points about cone area ; like many I think the phase advantages of less crossovers in a 2 way dont match when you are playing orchestral so much . And of course theres the quality of the x overs:)

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Many thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. It's been much appreciated, and a learning curve for me. I think I've found the cause of my musical dissatisfaction : the Rotel pre amp. What alerted me to this possibility was a passing comment by the sales consultant who sold me the B&W speakers.

He mentioned that the Rotel was getting on in age. It didn't sink in at the time, but this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h / phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible. Now I'm going to have to look around for either a " proper " pre amp with phono, or get a phono pre amp to use with the Magni. Any suggestions please ?

 

Cheeers,

Dennis

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16 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Many thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. It's been much appreciated, and a learning curve for me. I think I've found the cause of my musical dissatisfaction : the Rotel pre amp. What alerted me to this possibility was a passing comment by the sales consultant who sold me the B&W speakers.

He mentioned that the Rotel was getting on in age. It didn't sink in at the time, but this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h / phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible. Now I'm going to have to look around for either a " proper " pre amp with phono, or get a phono pre amp to use with the Magni. Any suggestions please ?

Good for you! First question of course - budget?

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6 hours ago, Ozcall said:

proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task.

 

Why do you say this, Oz?  If you regard 'proper' integration as putting a HP filter on the main spkrs - whether they be stand mounts or Maggies like I have - to complement the sub roll-off ... then this is pretty simple.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, Berkel said:

Many thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. It's been much appreciated, and a learning curve for me. I think I've found the cause of my musical dissatisfaction : the Rotel pre amp. What alerted me to this possibility was a passing comment by the sales consultant who sold me the B&W speakers.

He mentioned that the Rotel was getting on in age. It didn't sink in at the time, but this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h / phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible. Now I'm going to have to look around for either a " proper " pre amp with phono, or get a phono pre amp to use with the Magni. Any suggestions please ?

 

Cheeers,

Dennis

I meant to post this the other day but there is an online set of instructions to upgrade the RC970 ,1070 etc. I performed these mods for a friend and we got a good improvement :

http://whatishifi.blogspot.com/2017/04/modifing-rotel-rc-970bx-and-op-amp-comparisons.html

If you are not able to do the mods yourself I am sure one of the guys in Melbourne would be able to help you out. The mods are pretty inexpensive , probably a good deal less than a new pre.

 

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22 hours ago, Ozcall said:

Don't agree with this. While it may be true in theory , in practise the standmounters are still trying to reproduce a full range signal with a small mid/bass unit and proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task. If we were able to provide a band linited signal to the standmounters , use stereo subs and integrate them correctly with a mic and software Like REW then it could work but imo for good reproduction of organ music then a large speaker with a transmission line would be easier to implement.

It sounds more like agreement then disagreement. Those 2 setups can only be compare when discussing particular type/model/brand. 

As examples B&W 805 bookshelf have better tweeter and midrange/bass driver then B&W 702 S2 3-WAY Floor Standing Speaker, meaning from 60Hz up 805 are going to sound better. The rest from 60Hz down depends on subwoofer/s quantity + integration, measurements etc.

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15 hours ago, Ozcall said:

I meant to post this the other day but there is an online set of instructions to upgrade the RC970 ,1070 etc. I performed these mods for a friend and we got a good improvement :

http://whatishifi.blogspot.com/2017/04/modifing-rotel-rc-970bx-and-op-amp-comparisons.html

If you are not able to do the mods yourself I am sure one of the guys in Melbourne would be able to help you out. The mods are pretty inexpensive , probably a good deal less than a new pre.

 

Thanks Mate ..... sounds like a good idea if the cost is not extravagant .

Would any Melbourne member be able & willing to do this please ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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16 hours ago, Ittaku said:

Good for you! First question of course - budget?

Thanks Con,

Yes, cost is a limiting factor. I'd have to stick to under $1000, but less than $500 would be ideal !

Any suggestions please ?

 

Dennis

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3 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Thanks Con,

Yes, cost is a limiting factor. I'd have to stick to under $1000, but less than $500 would be ideal !

Any suggestions please ?

That's a very tight and limiting budget, especially if you need a phono stage. If you're doing phono separately, at that price probably a passive pre like the Stereo Coffee.

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On 10/01/2021 at 1:05 AM, Berkel said:

Hi all ; I don't mean nasal or lung congestion, but it was the best term I could think of to describe my auditory experience when listening to big climaxes on large scale orchestral and pipe organ music. I've been reasonably happy with my current set up, consisting of : B&W CM5S2 stand mount speakers, Rega Apollo CDP ( circa 2005 model ), Rotel RC 1070 pre amp, and Retrothermionic class D power amp ( 100 wpc ) and an older REL T3 subbie.  A nice, all round system.

But being a long time attendee of live symphony orchestra and pipe organ concerts, as well as a ( very amateur ) player of piano & organ, I know the type of sound I want and just can't seem to get it with my equipment. As mentioned above, the main issue is what I call congestion when the music gets to " fff " levels. I can't enjoy it at " realistic " levels ( within reason of course, as I have a small - ish room and neighbours to consider ). The situation isn't as bad with playing vinyl. Perhaps the digital medium is the problem ?

 

I would have thought the 100 wpc power amp would be sufficient to handle it, but maybe Class D isn't quite right for my requirements ..... ?

In the past, I've enjoyed valve amps very much, but gave up on them, due to cost, size and weight.

 

I would be grateful for any advice from more learned and experienced members.

Cheers,

Dennis

I like to listen to this once in a while, on my system it's very clean and upfront..

Christmas / Sarajevo 12/24 (Instrumental)        3:25    Trans-Siberian Orchestra    Christmas Eve and Other Stories    Holiday    0    
 

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46 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

That's a very tight and limiting budget, especially if you need a phono stage. If you're doing phono separately, at that price probably a passive pre like the Stereo Coffee.

Thanks Con,

I was thinking of using my Schiit Magni as " the " pre amp and buying a separate phono pre amp.

These can be had for fairly low prices, as I've seen on e bay. Rega Fono Mini A2D seems to get good reviews.

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43 minutes ago, Berkel said:

 

Thanks Con,

Yes, cost is a limiting factor. I'd have to stick to under $1000, but less than $500 would be ideal !

 

 

As Con replied ... that's a very limiting budget for 2 items.

 

Given you said this:

 

17 hours ago, Berkel said:

 

this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h/phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible.

 

 

I would suggest you keep using the Magni and spend your money on just a phono stage.  $500 should just about get you quite a good one - such as the Pro-Ject Tube Box S2 (which seems to have adjustable cap loading for your MM cart).  And later on ... you can improve its SQ with a linear PS.  :)

 

Andy

 

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On 10/01/2021 at 1:05 AM, Berkel said:

Hi all ; I don't mean nasal or lung congestion, but it was the best term I could think of to describe my auditory experience when listening to big climaxes on large scale orchestral and pipe organ music. I've been reasonably happy with my current set up, consisting of : B&W CM5S2 stand mount speakers, Rega Apollo CDP ( circa 2005 model ), Rotel RC 1070 pre amp, and Retrothermionic class D power amp ( 100 wpc ) and an older REL T3 subbie.  A nice, all round system.

But being a long time attendee of live symphony orchestra and pipe organ concerts, as well as a ( very amateur ) player of piano & organ, I know the type of sound I want and just can't seem to get it with my equipment. As mentioned above, the main issue is what I call congestion when the music gets to " fff " levels. I can't enjoy it at " realistic " levels ( within reason of course, as I have a small - ish room and neighbours to consider ). The situation isn't as bad with playing vinyl. Perhaps the digital medium is the problem ?

 

I would have thought the 100 wpc power amp would be sufficient to handle it, but maybe Class D isn't quite right for my requirements ..... ?

In the past, I've enjoyed valve amps very much, but gave up on them, due to cost, size and weight.

 

I would be grateful for any advice from more learned and experienced members.

Cheers,

Dennis

Just as a side note, I to was running a Rotel RC1070 preamp for about the last 10 years,  I thought something was holding back the system...Then went for the Freya plus, What a difference all my music opened up..  I don't know about your amp, I did a quick search on it but didn't find much info..

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Hi Andy ,I used a mini-dsp hd  on my subs and found learning to use REW well was difficult for me. 

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45 minutes ago, Ozcall said:

Hi Andy ,I used a mini-dsp hd  on my subs and found learning to use REW well was difficult for me. 

 

Yes, you need a tutor!  :)  I've been using it on and off since Paul Spencer set up my subs 4+ years ago ... and I still learn things from others, all the time.  :o

 

Andy

 

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Couldn't agree more and my feeling was that without the mini-dsp to dial things in it was going to be a hard task to get it right. 

It is such a pity that TDL are long gone as a pair of Studio ones would have probably been a good buy for Berkel. Perhaps a pair of S1 will turn up second hand.

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3 hours ago, andyr said:

 

As Con replied ... that's a very limiting budget for 2 items.

 

Given you said this:

 

 

I would suggest you keep using the Magni and spend your money on just a phono stage.  $500 should just about get you quite a good one - such as the Pro-Ject Tube Box S2 (which seems to have adjustable cap loading for your MM cart).  And later on ... you can improve its SQ with a linear PS.  :)

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy,

Yes I think I'll do that. Reviews indicate that the Rega Fono Mini A2D is quite good.

Would you recommend the ProJect Tube Box S2 over their Phono Box MM ?

 

Dennis

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2 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Thanks Andy,

Yes I think I'll do that. Reviews indicate that the Rega Fono Mini A2D is quite good.

 

Yes it's cheap, Dennis - and very suitable if you are embarking on digitising your vinyl collection!  :)  But nowhere near as good facilities & sound as the ProJect Tube Box S2, IMO.

 

2 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Would you recommend the ProJect Tube Box S2 over their Phono Box MM ?

 

Yes I would ... but again - it costs more!

 

Andy

 

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Thanks Andy,

 

I'll keep a lookout for the Project Tube Box S2. There's also a Proton 1100 pre amp for sale on the bay for $210.

Looks like it has many features, but I'm unaware of its' quality. I had the feeling that Proton products were pretty ordinary .... but I could be wrong of course.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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Hi Andy,

 

I've returned to the Rotel pre amp and it IS better than the Schiit Magni, so I'll stick with it for the moment.

Both you and Ozcall feel that the class D power amp is holding back the music. What's your opinion of the old Hafler DH 200, or the ME 200 ? Both are for sale on Gumtree.

 

Thanks,

Dennis

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14 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Hi Andy,

 

I've returned to the Rotel pre amp and it IS better than the Schiit Magni, so I'll stick with it for the moment.

 

But Dennis ... a few posts ago, you said that changing from the Rotel to the Magni "removed your congestion "!  So how come you have now moved back to your Rotel?

 

Quote

Both you and Ozcall feel that the class D power amp is holding back the music.

 

My view on your class D power amp is simply that, last year, when we substituted my Class AB AKSA 'Soraya' monoblocs (which have some pretty special power supplies) for the Class D ... we both heard an improvement.  So yes, it would appear that the Class D power amp is one of your bottlenecks.

 

@Ozcallhas some other suggestions, too.

 

Quote

What's your opinion of the old Hafler DH 200, or the ME 200 ? Both are for sale on Gumtree.

 

Sorry, have never heard either of them.  But ME amps have a reputation of being able to 'do' current well (ie. they cope well with low spkr impedances ... which is probably what your B&Ws have).

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr
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To refresh my " aural " memory. I also felt that the Magni was sounding a bit hard in the treble.

The Rotel has a so called Contour selector which can alter bass & treble, so is more versatile.

When set on -2 bass is increased which reduces treble hardness and boosts mid - lower bass, which is a big improvement for organ music.

 

Dennis

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Both the  Hafler and the Adcom gfa555 , were good old reliable midrange power amps however both are very long in the tooth and would probably require a recap , rebias and general service to perfrom well and be reliable. Both amps have fairly decent power supplies in terms of current delivery , the Adcom more so. Both amps would be described as  lacking in smoothness or a bit edgy sounding. My recommendation would still be for a Rotel RB1080 as these are real power houses with a resonably balanced tonailty that will drive either the B&W's or some of the speakers we have discussed  easily. Some years back my system was an RC1070 , RB 1080 and Tannoy Saturn 8'S ,  This produced a big room filling sound with excellent tight  and power ful bass.

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On 18/01/2021 at 3:42 PM, Berkel said:

There's also a Proton 1100 pre amp for sale on the bay for $210.

That Proton looks like an older NAD product, I think they are cousins that were made in the same factories sharing designs to some degree.

696427770_PROTONPre-Amp110001.thumb.JPG.dff848858bac8c7b9a05410cd24821dd.JPG

 

There appears to have been a complex relationship between the two brand names during this time.

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Thanks Ian,

 

Yes, I'd heard there was some kind of relationship between these two firms.

 

I've returned to using the Rotel pre amp. The little Magni  was pretty good, but a bit clinical.

Rotel has more realism when it comes to the complexities and nuances of classical music.

 

Still trying to figure out whether to change speakers or amps. For the last hour or so, I've been listening to music in my study, which is at the other end of my unit to the hi fi. Sounds better than listening in the same room.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

 

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See if you can get another member in Melbourne that owns a stereo coffee to call around for a mini GTG, and bring their SC so you can hear if one would be to your liking in ya' system.

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13 minutes ago, Berkel said:

What's a " stereo coffee " ? 2 cups of coffee ..... ?

It's a LDR (Light Dependent Resistors) passive pre that uses Optocouplers instead of physical resistivity attenuation.

 

Comments on these things subjectively are very good, with increased transparency, a full sound and good dynamics.

 

Edited by muon*
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23 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I doubt very much whether a different preamp will solve "congestion"

 

sud.jpg

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3 hours ago, muon* said:

That Proton looks like an older NAD product, I think they are cousins that were made in the same factories sharing designs to some degree.

696427770_PROTONPre-Amp110001.thumb.JPG.dff848858bac8c7b9a05410cd24821dd.JPG

 

There appears to have been a complex relationship between the two brand names during this time.

Proton was a spin-off company with employees originally from NAD who got into a dispute with the running(?) direction(?) of the company and made their own. I owned some Proton gear in the 80s; very good value back then. Not sure how they'd stand up today.

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OK ... thanks for the information.

Do you think this one would be significantly better than my Rotel RC 1070 ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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After reading about the Stereo Coffee 2020, I'm puzzled why is takes 40 -50 minutes to sound its' best ?

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