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Would better amplification solve congestion ?


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Thanks Gentlemen,

 

Firstly, Sir Sanders : that's very nice of you to offer to pay me a visit. I'm in Briar Hill ( between Greensborough and Eltham ), so I don't know if that's out of your way ? When Andy visited to demonstrate his monoblocs,  I could hear a great improvement. If it's convenient for you, I would be most happy to meet and listen to your amp.

 

Ozcall : you're probably right. A change of amp & speakers may be necessary. My " druther " would be high efficiency spkr + low power valve amp. However, space is limited.

 

Madfonzy : I'd never thought about inserting the bungs. I looked for them a few weeks ago but they had disintegrated, having been kept in the original box, but in the garage. I wonder if new ones are available, or whether something else could be substituted ? Reminds me of " put a sock in it " !

 

Dennis

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Hi Dennis,

 

my bungs disintegrated years ago and since I never used them anyway I threw them out.  From what I remember there were two size of bungs.  You could push the inner core out and then you have a sort of donut type bung.  Or leave the inner core in and have a full bung.  Remember trying it and did have the effect of muffling the lower frequencies.  I didn’t use them anyway as I set a crossover for them on my AV processor so no need.

 

you got two options.  Go to Bunnings and buy similar foam and cut.  Or contact B&W support to get some replacements.  A sock might work too but will probably muffle too much lol.

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1 hour ago, madfonzy said:

I’ve got the CM5S1 too but they are on rear HT duties.  I’ve got a cheap option for you to try.  With the rear port have you tried putting the foam plugs in.  This should change it to a sealed box and the tuning frequency up to 76Hz.  Sort of a mechanical crossover and this will let the sub take most of the low duties.

 

This would be a great thing to try, @Berkel.  Provide you up your sub roll-off to match.

 

45 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Firstly, Sir Sanders : that's very nice of you to offer to pay me a visit. I'm in Briar Hill ( between Greensborough and Eltham ), so I don't know if that's out of your way ? When Andy visited to demonstrate his monoblocs,  I could hear a great improvement. If it's convenient for you, I would be most happy to meet and listen to your amp.

 

Hah, but I warn you, Dennis.  You heard the improvement that my monoblocs delivered; Trev's Magtech will deliver even more so ... but s/hand (if you can find one) will be twice the price - and new, almost 4 times.  :lol:

 

Andy

 

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Good evening Gents,

Just a short update on  experiments with my system. Today I followed through with advice given earlier, and connected the subbie to the extra pre out of the pre amp, via a Y splitter ( the one someone sent a photo of ) instead of via the power amp's speaker cable connectors. I removed the Neutrik connector from the sub too.

It worked and results are interesting. There's plenty of bass and background in music seems quieter.

Orchestral music sounds great, and so does  pipe organ, until it gets very loud, as I experienced this arvo.

A recording of a big church organ I picked up in Germany a few years ago, sounded quite good until everything was " let loose " when all stops were pulled. Sounded as though the reproduction was just on the borderline of distortion, which surprised me. Maybe it was the recording ? I had almost convinced myself that the overall sound through my equipment was satisfactory, until this happened. Hmm ... where to go now ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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3 minutes ago, Berkel said:

A recording of a big church organ I picked up in Germany a few years ago, sounded quite good until everything was " let loose " when all stops were pulled. Sounded as though the reproduction was just on the borderline of distortion, which surprised me. Maybe it was the recording ? I had almost convinced myself that the overall sound through my equipment was satisfactory, until this happened. Hmm ... where to go now ?

Crossover, as I keep saying, and more grunt as everyone else is saying. Everything's running out of steam.

Edited by Ittaku
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On 24/01/2021 at 8:49 PM, Berkel said:

Firstly, Sir Sanders : that's very nice of you to offer to pay me a visit. I'm in Briar Hill ( between Greensborough and Eltham ), so I don't know if that's out of your way ? When Andy visited to demonstrate his monoblocs,  I could hear a great improvement. If it's convenient for you, I would be most happy to meet and listen to your amp.

Hi @Berkel, sorry I didn't see your reply until now.

Will PM you

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Dennis,

 

If you like B&W sound, I highly recommend the new B&W 705 S2 standmount (bookshelf) paired with your existing REL sub. The 705 S2 is a major step up sonically from your B&W CM5 S2. 

And as for amplification, I highly suggest upgrading to either Rotel RA-1590 stereo integrated amp or go with Rotel separates (RC-1590 preamp/DAC + RB-1582 Mkii power amp). This will elevate the performance of your system to a whole new level. 
The Rotel RC-1590 preamp/DAC has a very good DAC and you can connect your Rega Apollo CD player using spdif (digital coax cable) to the RC-1590 preamp/DAC. But it still won’t solve low pass filter if you want to cross over at 80 HZ to your sub and ease the burden of your main speakers (B&W 705 S2 standmount) since the RC-1590 pre doesn’t have low pass filter but it does have subwoofer out. The RA-1590 integrated amp also has same DAC as the ones in the RC-1590 preamp but no low pass filter crossover. 
Rotel will always sound grea5 with the B&W and always have great synergy together. 
 

Or alternatively, get a used discontinued Classe Sigma SSP preamp processor and a used discontinued Classe Sigma Amp2 stereo amp combo which both can be had at massive discounts today. And I would still go with the B&W 705 S2 standmount. These Classe Sigma combos will perform and sound quite a bit better than the Rotel I recommended earlier. 
And the Classe Sigma SSP has LFE & low pass filter that you can set to cross over at 80HZ or whichever you like. And it has very good internal DAC that you can connect your digital source to. This will be a better solution than the Rotel stuff that I suggested earlier and would probably cost you the same as the Rotel separates (RC-1590 pre + RB-1582 Mkii amp) that I recommended earlier since the Classe Sigma series have been discontinued and can be had pretty cheap these days especially compared to their original retail prices when purchased new. They would pair nicely with the B&W, especially the newer B&W like the 705 S2. 

 

Fyi, the Classe Sigma SSP pre pro is optimized for stereo and its front LR channels share the same basic design configuration and critical circuit blocks as Classe’s own stereo preamp/DAC the CP-800. The USB and other digital inputs configurations/implementation and input signal paths are pretty much copied & pasted off the Classe CP-800 stereo preamp/DAC.  
 

Here in the US, you would easily find quite a few of used discontinued Classe Sigma series gears being offered in used after markets eg Audiogon, eBay, Music Direct, Crutchfield, etc at less than half of their original retail prices. Not sure if you could easily find some down there in Australia. Keep an eye on them. The original msrp (retail price) of the Classe Sigma SSP here in the US was USD $5k and today a used one can be had at less than USD $2500 (between USD $2k to USD $2500). 
The original retail price of the Classe Sigma Amp2 stereo amp (class D amp) here in the US was USD $3500 and these days a used one usually goes for around USD $1800 to USD $2k here. Actually about a month ago I spotted a used Sigma Amp2 on either Audiogon or eBay or Music Direct (couldn’t remember which one) for sale for USD $1600. 
That’s a steal considering what they originally did retail for. All Classe Sigma series gears were discontinued in 2017/2018. FYI, the Sigma series was Classe’s entry level offerings and I don’t think Classe would revive or make newer Sigma series. 

Edited by Dilatante
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Dennis, ( @Berkel)

 

Haven't seen any posts from you recently ... so maybe your 'congestion' problem has gone away?

 

But if you want to introduce a roll-off on your B&Ws (so it matches the roll-on of your sub) - which will reduce spkr distortion and reduce the load on your amp ... which should help with 'congestion' - you might like a pair of these:

https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/24/245354.html

 

They are a passive line-level HP filter which you plug into the RCA sockets of your amp; Decibel HiFi in Brisbane sell them.

 

Andy

 

 

 

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Thanks Andy,

 

I've been thinking ( this does happen sometimes ! ) that since phono sounds so good, perhaps the problem lies with my cd player. You perhaps suggested as such. So I'm now looking around for a more suitable  digital source. I think I've sold the Rega ( will find out on the weekend ).

Initial thoughts were another good quality sacd / cd player ( like the Denon I sold ) but they seem few and far between, and most are " universal " disc players which don't fill me with confidence. I'd prefer a dedicated cd / sacd unit. However, I only have 6 -8 sacds, so perhaps a nice quality cd player would be the best option.

I don't know what to think about the HP filters.

 

Thanks for taking an interest in my quest.

Cheers,

Dennis

 

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13 hours ago, Berkel said:

I don't know what to think about the HP filters.

 

Thanks for taking an interest in my quest.

Cheers,

Dennis

 

Irrespective of whether the CDP (or DAC within it) is the main thing causing your 'congestion' issues, Dennis, the fact remains that your little B&Ws will sound better if they are not being forced to push out low sounds - and your amplifier will be less stressed by this ... so its output power can better service the rest of the frequency spectrum.

 

13 hours ago, Berkel said:

I've been thinking ( this does happen sometimes ! ) that since phono sounds so good, perhaps the problem lies with my cd player. You perhaps suggested as such. So I'm now looking around for a more suitable digital source. I think I've sold the Rega ( will find out on the weekend ).

Initial thoughts were another good quality sacd / cd player ( like the Denon I sold ) but they seem few and far between, and most are " universal " disc players which don't fill me with confidence. I'd prefer a dedicated cd / sacd unit. However, I only have 6 -8 sacds, so perhaps a nice quality cd player would be the best option.

 

It may be just the DAC in your player which is letting you down; hence my offer to bring a DAC over for you to listen to.

 

Andy

 

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Thanks Andy,

 

I understand what you're saying about the HP filters, so I'll try to obtain them, via the link you sent.

Anyway, it looks like I've sold the Rega. I'll know by the weekend. Then I'll try to decide about another one.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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3 hours ago, Berkel said:

Thanks Andy,

 

I understand what you're saying about the HP filters, so I'll try to obtain them, via the link you sent.

 

The link is merely to a site where someone had used them to roll off his Maggies, in order to integrate with his sub.

 

Decibel HiFi in Brisbane sell the HP filters - including that specific 70Hz one.

 

Andy

 

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Rega CD players aren't exactly brilliant at resolving complicated and dynamic passages.  They get a bit confused and cluttered sounding.  See if you can find an old Arcam Alpha 9 CDP anywhere second hand.  ;)

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Thanks Gopal,

 

Yes, that's what seems to be happening. I recently tried a modern, cheap Yamaha which sounds quite alright and not cluttered. I'm also in the process of buying a current model Denon cdp from another SNA member.

 

Dennis

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Given, or better heard the benefit of better decoupling from vibrations exchanged with floor by any unit (be it a source, or amp or speaker) I was wondering if the OP already considered vibrations potentially impairing sound.

 

Ciao,

 

Stefano

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Hi Stefano,

 

Thanks for your input.

No, I haven't considered vibrations, but the furniture on which I have the equipment is very solid.

 

There has been an improvement since I changed CD players. I now have a Denon DCD 800NE which is very nice.

 

Regards,

Dennis

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Always still worth playing with isolation of vibrations, cheap and easy to do using Whites Anti-vibration squares from Bunnings....maybe the 100mm x 100mm ones.

 

 

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Thanks Ian,

 

Not a bad idea, and I'm going to Bunnings today anyway. I'll look for them. My Rotel pre amp sits on the top of the " entertainment " unit, and upon that is the power amp ( class D so not heavy ) and on top of that is the CD player. Should I try isolating each component ? This set up may not seem very " kosher ", but I just don't have room for another arrangement.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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2 hours ago, Berkel said:

No, I haven't considered vibrations, but the furniture on which I have the equipment is very solid.

 

There has been an improvement since I changed CD players. I now have a Denon DCD 800NE which is very nice.

Stefano makes a good point Dennis ; its very important to have a transport mechanism that is very low vibration . Heres a good read on how hard it is for a player ;

 

 Q. How much impact can a CD transport have on sound quality? (soundonsound.com)

 

Quote

A common problem is a susceptibility to mechanical and acoustical vibrations, which cause tracking and focus errors leading to uncorrectable data errors

 

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On 02/03/2021 at 2:08 PM, Berkel said:

What's your opinion on an Arcam alpha 7 SE ?

 

Thanks,

Dennis

I don't know it unfortunately.

The best, most satisfying, richest, most engaging CD players I've heard are:

Arcam Alpha 9
Micromega Stage 6
Bryston CDP-3
Proceed & Levinson (The one that looked like a shoe box)

There are more detailed players out there, but these are the ones that I always came back to as they had a full, natural sound with proper bass extension.
 

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4 hours ago, Berkel said:

Thanks Ian,

 

Not a bad idea, and I'm going to Bunnings today anyway. I'll look for them. My Rotel pre amp sits on the top of the " entertainment " unit, and upon that is the power amp ( class D so not heavy ) and on top of that is the CD player. Should I try isolating each component ? This set up may not seem very " kosher ", but I just don't have room for another arrangement.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

You can use these whole or cut them into smaller squares.

 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-on-site-100-x-12-5mm-rubber-anti-vibration-mat-4-pack_p3961547

 

Yeah, put them under everything, speakers too ;)

 

Edit: but don't put them under ya' front loading washer, ironically they make that situation a lot...lot worse :lol: No joke!

Edited by muon*
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