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Would better amplification solve congestion ?


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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Maybe this is a broader question for a separate thread, but is there any reason why standmounts + subs can't reproduce complex music at reasonable levels as well as floorstanders?

 

Depends on what "reasonable levels" is to you. Basically if you have enough surface area, and enough excursion, but remain within the linear range of the drivers, it won't matter whether it's a floorstander or a standmount.

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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Maybe this is a broader question for a separate thread, but is there any reason why standmounts + subs can't reproduce complex music at reasonable levels as well as floorstanders?

 

 

My opinion is ... that they absolutely can, Trev - but:

  • the stand mounts (as small spkrs are generally inefficient / drop to low impedances) need to be driven by a powerful amplifier
  • they need to be high=passed, and
  • the subs need to be good, too.

Andy

 

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Lot's of info going on here, but I'll just offer what i've been looking into recently for organ reproduction in classical music: tapped horn subs?

 

If size is an issue then they're a no-go. With >300L speaker now in the listening room, I too am struggling to figure out where I would fit some of these reportedly organ-worthy subs...

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5 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Yes, it can!  But not, realistically, from small stand mounts like yours.  :(

 

But I thought you had said, last year, that you were quite happy with the sound you were getting - it's just that, as a result of some equipment swaps since that time, your musical enjoyment decreased?

 

Given you have a sub, you can get valid orchestral reproduction from the equipment you have ... but you need to make some tweaks:

  1. introduce a HP XO to roll off the B&Ws, so 80Hz or 100Hz and below is handled by your sub.
  2. have several hundred watts driving them.  See if you can get hold of a s/hand Elektra HD Reference 300w amp, like IanRM bought.  Or even a used Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 3, like he had before.

Andy

 

You're quite right Andy. I was enjoying the music, but since changing equipment, the enjoyment has diminished, and the sound is irritating to a degree. Of course memory is a fickle thing, but I seem to recollect that my satisfaction levels were higher when I had a couple of NADs. It's all about synergy eh ?

Dennis

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3 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Maybe this is a broader question for a separate thread, but is there any reason why standmounts + subs can't reproduce complex music at reasonable levels as well as floorstanders?

 

 

Probably worth defining where the probably is, in the bass or the sub-bass frequency range:

 

image.png.e8738febd862e569f662f986d2a8672d.png

Edited by Telecine
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11 hours ago, Telecine said:

 

Probably worth defining where the probably is, in the bass or the sub-bass frequency range:

 

image.png.e8738febd862e569f662f986d2a8672d.png

It's not relative to instruments. It's relative to the reproduction of instruments dynamically.

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On 14/01/2021 at 12:03 AM, Berkel said:

Would a Krell KAV 300i do the trick with my B&Ws ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

KAV400xi if you were gonna get a small Krell integrated BTW.

Edited by Wimbo
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On 14/01/2021 at 8:34 PM, sir sanders zingmore said:

 is there any reason why standmounts + subs can't reproduce complex music at reasonable levels as well as floorstanders?

 

Of course standmounts + subs can reproduce any type of music better then floorstanders, it only depends on quality of speakers and subs. As example B&W 805 with subs is going to reproduce any music better then B&W 702 S2 3-WAY Floor Standing Speakers. 

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24 minutes ago, Irek said:

Of course standmounts + subs can reproduce any type of music better then floorstanders, it only depends on quality of speakers and subs. As example B&W 805 with subs is going to reproduce any music better then B&W 702 S2 3-WAY Floor Standing Speakers. 

Don't agree with this. While it may be true in theory , in practise the standmounters are still trying to reproduce a full range signal with a small mid/bass unit and proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task. If we were able to provide a band linited signal to the standmounters , use stereo subs and integrate them correctly with a mic and software Like REW then it could work but imo for good reproduction of organ music then a large speaker with a transmission line would be easier to implement.

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On 14/01/2021 at 4:43 PM, Berkel said:

Wimbo ; you've nailed it !

Can full - scale symphony orchestra / cathedral pipe organ be REASONABLY reproduced in the home ?

Found this; some good perspective on dynamic range 2 way vis a vis 3way from a tech director/engineer at RBH speakers . about 4;25 in ..

 

 

 

 

How come we dont see as many 2 1/2 way crossover speakers anymore ? He makes some good points about cone area ; like many I think the phase advantages of less crossovers in a 2 way dont match when you are playing orchestral so much . And of course theres the quality of the x overs:)

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Many thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. It's been much appreciated, and a learning curve for me. I think I've found the cause of my musical dissatisfaction : the Rotel pre amp. What alerted me to this possibility was a passing comment by the sales consultant who sold me the B&W speakers.

He mentioned that the Rotel was getting on in age. It didn't sink in at the time, but this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h / phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible. Now I'm going to have to look around for either a " proper " pre amp with phono, or get a phono pre amp to use with the Magni. Any suggestions please ?

 

Cheeers,

Dennis

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16 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Many thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. It's been much appreciated, and a learning curve for me. I think I've found the cause of my musical dissatisfaction : the Rotel pre amp. What alerted me to this possibility was a passing comment by the sales consultant who sold me the B&W speakers.

He mentioned that the Rotel was getting on in age. It didn't sink in at the time, but this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h / phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible. Now I'm going to have to look around for either a " proper " pre amp with phono, or get a phono pre amp to use with the Magni. Any suggestions please ?

Good for you! First question of course - budget?

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6 hours ago, Ozcall said:

proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task.

 

Why do you say this, Oz?  If you regard 'proper' integration as putting a HP filter on the main spkrs - whether they be stand mounts or Maggies like I have - to complement the sub roll-off ... then this is pretty simple.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, Berkel said:

Many thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic. It's been much appreciated, and a learning curve for me. I think I've found the cause of my musical dissatisfaction : the Rotel pre amp. What alerted me to this possibility was a passing comment by the sales consultant who sold me the B&W speakers.

He mentioned that the Rotel was getting on in age. It didn't sink in at the time, but this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h / phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible. Now I'm going to have to look around for either a " proper " pre amp with phono, or get a phono pre amp to use with the Magni. Any suggestions please ?

 

Cheeers,

Dennis

I meant to post this the other day but there is an online set of instructions to upgrade the RC970 ,1070 etc. I performed these mods for a friend and we got a good improvement :

http://whatishifi.blogspot.com/2017/04/modifing-rotel-rc-970bx-and-op-amp-comparisons.html

If you are not able to do the mods yourself I am sure one of the guys in Melbourne would be able to help you out. The mods are pretty inexpensive , probably a good deal less than a new pre.

 

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22 hours ago, Ozcall said:

Don't agree with this. While it may be true in theory , in practise the standmounters are still trying to reproduce a full range signal with a small mid/bass unit and proper subwoofer integration for music replay is a hard task. If we were able to provide a band linited signal to the standmounters , use stereo subs and integrate them correctly with a mic and software Like REW then it could work but imo for good reproduction of organ music then a large speaker with a transmission line would be easier to implement.

It sounds more like agreement then disagreement. Those 2 setups can only be compare when discussing particular type/model/brand. 

As examples B&W 805 bookshelf have better tweeter and midrange/bass driver then B&W 702 S2 3-WAY Floor Standing Speaker, meaning from 60Hz up 805 are going to sound better. The rest from 60Hz down depends on subwoofer/s quantity + integration, measurements etc.

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15 hours ago, Ozcall said:

I meant to post this the other day but there is an online set of instructions to upgrade the RC970 ,1070 etc. I performed these mods for a friend and we got a good improvement :

http://whatishifi.blogspot.com/2017/04/modifing-rotel-rc-970bx-and-op-amp-comparisons.html

If you are not able to do the mods yourself I am sure one of the guys in Melbourne would be able to help you out. The mods are pretty inexpensive , probably a good deal less than a new pre.

 

Thanks Mate ..... sounds like a good idea if the cost is not extravagant .

Would any Melbourne member be able & willing to do this please ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

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16 hours ago, Ittaku said:

Good for you! First question of course - budget?

Thanks Con,

Yes, cost is a limiting factor. I'd have to stick to under $1000, but less than $500 would be ideal !

Any suggestions please ?

 

Dennis

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3 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Thanks Con,

Yes, cost is a limiting factor. I'd have to stick to under $1000, but less than $500 would be ideal !

Any suggestions please ?

That's a very tight and limiting budget, especially if you need a phono stage. If you're doing phono separately, at that price probably a passive pre like the Stereo Coffee.

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On 10/01/2021 at 1:05 AM, Berkel said:

Hi all ; I don't mean nasal or lung congestion, but it was the best term I could think of to describe my auditory experience when listening to big climaxes on large scale orchestral and pipe organ music. I've been reasonably happy with my current set up, consisting of : B&W CM5S2 stand mount speakers, Rega Apollo CDP ( circa 2005 model ), Rotel RC 1070 pre amp, and Retrothermionic class D power amp ( 100 wpc ) and an older REL T3 subbie.  A nice, all round system.

But being a long time attendee of live symphony orchestra and pipe organ concerts, as well as a ( very amateur ) player of piano & organ, I know the type of sound I want and just can't seem to get it with my equipment. As mentioned above, the main issue is what I call congestion when the music gets to " fff " levels. I can't enjoy it at " realistic " levels ( within reason of course, as I have a small - ish room and neighbours to consider ). The situation isn't as bad with playing vinyl. Perhaps the digital medium is the problem ?

 

I would have thought the 100 wpc power amp would be sufficient to handle it, but maybe Class D isn't quite right for my requirements ..... ?

In the past, I've enjoyed valve amps very much, but gave up on them, due to cost, size and weight.

 

I would be grateful for any advice from more learned and experienced members.

Cheers,

Dennis

I like to listen to this once in a while, on my system it's very clean and upfront..

Christmas / Sarajevo 12/24 (Instrumental)        3:25    Trans-Siberian Orchestra    Christmas Eve and Other Stories    Holiday    0    
 

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46 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

That's a very tight and limiting budget, especially if you need a phono stage. If you're doing phono separately, at that price probably a passive pre like the Stereo Coffee.

Thanks Con,

I was thinking of using my Schiit Magni as " the " pre amp and buying a separate phono pre amp.

These can be had for fairly low prices, as I've seen on e bay. Rega Fono Mini A2D seems to get good reviews.

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43 minutes ago, Berkel said:

 

Thanks Con,

Yes, cost is a limiting factor. I'd have to stick to under $1000, but less than $500 would be ideal !

 

 

As Con replied ... that's a very limiting budget for 2 items.

 

Given you said this:

 

17 hours ago, Berkel said:

 

this arvo I tried using my little Schiit Magni h/phone pre as a replacement for the Rotel. Incredibly, the music sprang to life and congestion disappeared ! Incredible.

 

 

I would suggest you keep using the Magni and spend your money on just a phono stage.  $500 should just about get you quite a good one - such as the Pro-Ject Tube Box S2 (which seems to have adjustable cap loading for your MM cart).  And later on ... you can improve its SQ with a linear PS.  :)

 

Andy

 

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On 10/01/2021 at 1:05 AM, Berkel said:

Hi all ; I don't mean nasal or lung congestion, but it was the best term I could think of to describe my auditory experience when listening to big climaxes on large scale orchestral and pipe organ music. I've been reasonably happy with my current set up, consisting of : B&W CM5S2 stand mount speakers, Rega Apollo CDP ( circa 2005 model ), Rotel RC 1070 pre amp, and Retrothermionic class D power amp ( 100 wpc ) and an older REL T3 subbie.  A nice, all round system.

But being a long time attendee of live symphony orchestra and pipe organ concerts, as well as a ( very amateur ) player of piano & organ, I know the type of sound I want and just can't seem to get it with my equipment. As mentioned above, the main issue is what I call congestion when the music gets to " fff " levels. I can't enjoy it at " realistic " levels ( within reason of course, as I have a small - ish room and neighbours to consider ). The situation isn't as bad with playing vinyl. Perhaps the digital medium is the problem ?

 

I would have thought the 100 wpc power amp would be sufficient to handle it, but maybe Class D isn't quite right for my requirements ..... ?

In the past, I've enjoyed valve amps very much, but gave up on them, due to cost, size and weight.

 

I would be grateful for any advice from more learned and experienced members.

Cheers,

Dennis

Just as a side note, I to was running a Rotel RC1070 preamp for about the last 10 years,  I thought something was holding back the system...Then went for the Freya plus, What a difference all my music opened up..  I don't know about your amp, I did a quick search on it but didn't find much info..

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