Would better amplification solve congestion ?

[Berkel]

I just tried listening with the subbie disconnected. Very little bass ( on organ music )but perhaps a small improvement in congestion ( muddle ). However, I need to have the " contour " turned to L - 2, i.e. 2 steps down from neutral. I had it on neutral to start, but couldn't bear the harsh treble. On L -2 it was reasonable.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

[Berkel]

Would a Krell KAV 300i do the trick with my B&Ws ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

[xlr8or]

If you're contemplating getting this one then go for it. It's the only SS amp that I have repurchased after onselling it the first time. It has plenty in reserve and works very well with B&W floorstanders. If you like PRAT then this is for you. You can also hook it up as a power amp and add a tube preamp in the future.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Krell-KAV-300I-Integrated-Amplifier-Black-Enamel-and-Silver-Charcoal-Alumunium-/274634539376

[seppstefano]

On 10/01/2021 at 2:03 PM, Berkel said:

Thanks again folks. All good suggestions, but I'm unsure which to tackle first.

I have limited funds ( the age pension doesn't allow much " mad money " to spend on audio ) so what's the 1st

" line of attack ", i.e. cost : benefit ratio ?

 

Dennis

 

Hi,

are you sure you don't have vibrations of speaker cabinets/devices/cables affecting the playback at high volumes? This would concur to sound congestion and the fix might be on the cheap side...

 

About component swapping, I recently got a pair of Finnish amphion Prio towers and they are so revealing I couldn't believe I was so used to the sound of congestion...

 

HTH,

Stefano

 

P.S.:  50Hz cutoff for the sub is in my experience right if you really want not to color voices

P.P.S.: My analog rig used to play tones very very deep, deeper than those of my digital one... I don't really think vinyl playback is bass limited, generally speaking.

[Wimbo]

10 hours ago, Berkel said:

Would a Krell KAV 300i do the trick with my B&Ws ?

 

Cheers,

Dennis

I think the last good small B&W speaker made that were reasonably priced were the DM100 and DM110. I think the Krell will make them shrill.

Get more efficient larger speakers mate. These could be helpful.

 

[Ittaku]

16 hours ago, Berkel said:

I just tried listening with the subbie disconnected. Very little bass ( on organ music )but perhaps a small improvement in congestion ( muddle ). However, I need to have the " contour " turned to L - 2, i.e. 2 steps down from neutral. I had it on neutral to start, but couldn't bear the harsh treble. On L -2 it was reasonable.

I don't think I implied anywhere it would sound significantly better without the subwoofer by the way.

[Berkel]

No, I realise that. I just wanted to try this experiment to hear if there was less congestion.

Not really much difference.

11 hours ago, xlr8or said:

If you're contemplating getting this one then go for it. It's the only SS amp that I have repurchased after onselling it the first time. It has plenty in reserve and works very well with B&W floorstanders. If you like PRAT then this is for you. You can also hook it up as a power amp and add a tube preamp in the future.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Krell-KAV-300I-Integrated-Amplifier-Black-Enamel-and-Silver-Charcoal-Alumunium-/274634539376

I've read lots of good reports on this Krell, however I remember hearing one years ago, and to me it sounded overly bright in the treble.

[Berkel]

Thanks to all who have responded with suggestions and recommendations.

I'm still unsure of which route to take : different speakers or amp. Also whether the subbie is drawing off power, as I've interpreted some folks suggestions. My interpretation is that it's better to connect the sub from either a dedicated " sub out " ( as I used to have in a NAD C 326 BEE ) or extra " pre - out " in my pre amp, instead of using the Neutrink connection through the speaker terminals ..... ?

I don't understand the purpose of the external crossover which was mentioned.

 

The majority of respondents  indicate I would be better off with larger, more efficient speakers.

So, I'm going to do more research, and would welcome more feedback if anyone would like to share their experience.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

[Berkel]

2 hours ago, Wimbo said:

I think the last good small B&W speaker made that were reasonably priced were the DM100 and DM110. I think the Krell will make them shrill.

Get more efficient larger speakers mate. These could be helpful.

 

Thanks, but space is a problem .

[o2so]

Not sure if this has been suggested yet but If you have an issue that you chose to describe as "congestion", the first thing I would do would be to grab a usb mic and run a few sweeps of your room with REW (free software and easy-ish to use).

This will show you where your room modes are. Room modes cause boominess, especially at high volumes, which congests the presentation and obscures detail. The effect can be massive, especially in systems with a subwoofer.

Fortunately you can get rid of these with EQ.

 

The easiest and cheapest solution is to equalise down your room modes using a parametric EQ such as the one in Roon. However this will not apply to your turntable set up (which you say does not have a problem, but this puzzles me).

 

The best way to permanently address room modes is to get a DSP system (I recommend Minidsp SHD but DEQX is also highly rated) which will seamlessly integrate your sub with your mains and gets rid of all the room modes. I would be extremely surprised if you still experience any congestion after the room modes have been dealt with. 

 

Part of the problem can be also that your amp is clipping or your speakers are compressing at high volume, but I would not describe this as congestion...more as distortion or lack of dynamics.

Edited January 14, 2021 by o2so

[o2so]

24 minutes ago, Berkel said:

The majority of respondents  indicate I would be better off with larger, more efficient speakers.

So, I'm going to do more research, and would welcome more feedback if anyone would like to share their experience.

 

Cheers,

Dennis

This is only going to help you if the problem is that your speakers are compressing or your amp is clipping. If the problem are room modes, bigger speakers will not solve it. In fact they could make it worse.

[o2so]

To clarify, you can see the frequency response chart in my room, suing two bookshelf speakers and two subwoofers, without and with EQ to control room modes.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by o2so

[Ittaku]

1 hour ago, Berkel said:

I don't understand the purpose of the external crossover which was mentioned.

The purpose of the external crossover is to stop sending bass to your main speakers that the subwoofer is already doing, to allow them to breathe better and not work in their compressed sound range. It is the solution to what I suggested may be the problem plaguing your setup.

[andyr]

2 hours ago, Berkel said:

 

I don't understand the purpose of the external crossover which was mentioned.

 

 

As Con posted, Dennis:

 

22 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

The purpose of the external crossover is to stop sending bass to your main speakers that the subwoofer is already doing, to allow them to breathe better and not work in their compressed sound range. It is the solution to what I suggested may be the problem plaguing your setup.

 

IOW:

• you connect your pre out RCAs to the external active XO (such as a miniDSP 2x4 or 2x4HD)
• the active XO splits the sound into hi's ... and lows.
• the hi output goes into the power amp inputs (driving your B&Ws) - this would be, say, frequencies above 80Hz.
• the low output goes into the sub low-level inputs - this would be, say, the frequencies below 80Hz.

With this arrangement, the B&Ws are no longer trying to push out LFs.  This means 2 things:

1. the amplifier's power can be used to better effect on the rest of the FR (ie. above 80Hz).
2. and the distortion level on the B&Ws goes down - as the bass cone is no longer excurting as far as it did when it was trying to deliver the lower frequencies.

If you still need more power on the B&Ws, then look for a more powerful amp.

 

Andy

 

[Berkel]

Thanks Andy ; that explains it nicely. Much appreciated.

 

Dennis

[Berkel]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

The purpose of the external crossover is to stop sending bass to your main speakers that the subwoofer is already doing, to allow them to breathe better and not work in their compressed sound range. It is the solution to what I suggested may be the problem plaguing your setup.

Thanks Con ..... very helpful.

Dennis

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

excurting

 

 

????   

[Wimbo]

3 hours ago, o2so said:

This is only going to help you if the problem is that your speakers are compressing or your amp is clipping. If the problem are room modes, bigger speakers will not solve it. In fact they could make it worse.

Or not. Big speaker> big instrument. Small Speaker> Small instrument. Or Soundstage. His problem is trying to get a full scale orchestra with dynamics out of a small loudspeaker.

[o2so]

25 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Or not. Big speaker> big instrument. Small Speaker> Small instrument. Or Soundstage. His problem is trying to get a full scale orchestra with dynamics out of a small loudspeaker.

I thought his problem was congestion.

If the problem is dynamics, then yes a bigger speaker will have greater dynamics (at high volumes only).

I do not  agree with the statement that a small speaker with a subwoofer will have a smaller soundstage than a big speaker. Maybe not as tall, depending on the height of the tweeters, but the width depends on the tweeter of axis response (for the same placement in the room).

[Berkel]

Wimbo ; you've nailed it !

Can full - scale symphony orchestra / cathedral pipe organ be REASONABLY reproduced in the home ?

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Berkel said:

 

Can full - scale symphony orchestra / cathedral pipe organ be REASONABLY reproduced in the home ?

 

 

Yes, it can!  But not, realistically, from small stand mounts like yours.  

 

But I thought you had said, last year, that you were quite happy with the sound you were getting - it's just that, as a result of some equipment swaps since that time, your musical enjoyment decreased?

 

Given you have a sub, you can get valid orchestral reproduction from the equipment you have ... but you need to make some tweaks:

1. introduce a HP XO to roll off the B&Ws, so 80Hz or 100Hz and below is handled by your sub.
2. have several hundred watts driving them.  See if you can get hold of a s/hand Elektra HD Reference 300w amp, like IanRM bought.  Or even a used Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 3, like he had before.

Andy

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by andyr

[Wimbo]

2 hours ago, o2so said:

I thought his problem was congestion.

If the problem is dynamics, then yes a bigger speaker will have greater dynamics (at high volumes only).

I do not  agree with the statement that a small speaker with a subwoofer will have a smaller soundstage than a big speaker. Maybe not as tall, depending on the height of the tweeters, but the width depends on the tweeter of axis response (for the same placement in the room).

I'm mainly talking about the instrument size. Yes, the soundstage is involved and with that, we all know that we have to use our eyes there.

As I said before and after listening to various versions of them, I find there smaller cheaper speakers lacking in detail and dynamics and in a lot of cases there cheaper floorstanders as well.To be honest, I found Orpheus and early Richter blew them away. I was also a fan of the Basic Sonique 5.5. Not the SE.

[murrmax]

Quote

Its pretty obvious too much is being asked of the speakers as they're far too small, and a 2-way, to cope with the demands of complex music played a reasonable levels.   

 

+1

 

A powerful amp say 250 w with a big power supply will control the mid/bass driver much better, but if you want to listen to complex music at reasonable levels without compression you'll be better off moving on from standmounts ..

[sir sanders zingmore]

Maybe this is a broader question for a separate thread, but is there any reason why standmounts + subs can't reproduce complex music at reasonable levels as well as floorstanders?

 

[seppstefano]

Can't really see the case.

 

My previous setup consisted of 2 standmounts + 2 subs (each 100lt. sealed, filtered at 50Hz, if I remember correctly) and I had a wide powerful musical "picture" out of it.