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Would better amplification solve congestion ?


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1 hour ago, deepthought said:

FF is 100dB. So your speakers, at 88db w/m sensitivity will, at say 3 meters from you, need to fed at least 50 watts RMS with peaks of over 100 watts. Your poor speakers are rated at "recommended 30 watts".  The congestion is most likely intermodulation distortion in the woofers.  You should be reported to the RSPCS.;)

 

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

remembering that a lot of speaker manufacturers over-cook their sensitivity so 88db w/m might be less. 

I'm really not that cruel ! I do have a sub woofer to take some of the bass frequency off the B&Ws !

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58 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

The instruments you describe have very low frequency extension, especially the organ, and require insane amounts of energy to be reproduced. The extra low frequency of digital audio is what's killing your dynamics compared to your vinyl. Once your main speakers move beyond a certain amount of excursion they are no longer operating in their linear range - that is the "congestion" you are describing. Your main speakers will be trying to reproduce the ultra low frequencies that the subwoofer is doing and although they will have no meaningful output, they will still be moving a lot.  Note that more current drive from a higher current amplifier will often control the speakers better, but may only partially alleviate the problem without solving it. Vinyl is often mixed in a way that is more easily reproduced in the home (often low frequencies are blended into a mono signal for example.) Whether vinyl goes down to 16Hz at the same amplitude as digital for the same recording or not will be highly variable and some recordings will definitely not. To reproduce your vinyl source your amplification and especially speakers don't need to go as low and therefore can effectively go louder in the rest of the frequency response.  You need - bigger speakers that can perform more excursion and/or more power and/or more current drive OR you need to actively cross over your main speakers to not work as hard. If you are simply passively adding the Rel subwoofer then the main speakers still work just as hard whether the subwoofer is there or not. If you are actually crossing over the mains (such as through the subwoofer's crossover) then they won't work as hard. Once you do that you also have the option of pushing the crossover higher to allow the main speakers to breathe more - standmounts really shouldn't be trying to reproduce an organ. Conventional wisdom suggests you can go as high as 80Hz with a single subwoofer.

Thanks Con,

I'm not very good with technical matters connected with audio, but I interpret your contribution as meaning that the connection of the sub woofer to the amp can vary and produce less strain on the speakers.... am I correct ? My current set up is having the sub connector cable  ( Neutrink )attached to the speaker binding posts of the amp, which REL recommends.

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57 minutes ago, deepthought said:

Good idea. To the OP, don't be afraid to experiment with going higher than 80hz, especially if you can place your subwoofer in a central location in the room.

Do you mean the sub crossover at or above 80 Hz ? I think it's set around 50.

Also placing the sub centrally ? Manufacturer and other literature, recommends a corner location, but I really don't know. I think I'd rather do without the sub and have full - range speakers, which I've had previously.

Interestingly, when I heard the B&Ws at the dealers on some of my organ music, I asked the salesman ....

" where is the sub woofer ? " and he smiled and said there wasn't one ! I don't get this effect at home.

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23 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

Yes :yes: I've often thought this could be a reason towards why those prefer vinyl over digital (along with other things).

 

 

A crossover to a subwoofer at 80Hz will alleviate the speakers and amplifier of so much work to do.

A bit higher then 80Hz (100Hz maybe) could be an option and as you say especially if the sub-woofer was centralised.

Verrrry interesting ! ( If you're from the era of " Laugh In " )

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9 minutes ago, Berkel said:

I'm not very good with technical matters connected with audio, but I interpret your contribution as meaning that the connection of the sub woofer to the amp can vary and produce less strain on the speakers.... am I correct ? My current set up is having the sub connector cable  ( Neutrink )attached to the speaker binding posts of the amp, which REL recommends.

Yes, your approach is a "passive" one, meaning it makes absolutely no difference what you set your subwoofer to, the speakers will strain hard always. The advice about raising the crossover frequency won't help you on its own. You need an actual crossover which will stop sending the low frequencies to your amplifier and subsequently your speakers, and this virtually always goes at line level - not speaker level connections.

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And by the way, Rel recommend what they recommend (speaker level connections) because they've maintained that approach long long long before there was almost any other company making subwoofers for high end audio and to backtrack now would put egg on their faces. Back then real crossovers were hard to implement and most pre/power or integrated amp combinations weren't flexible enough to put them in place, so speaker level connections made sense.

Edited by Ittaku
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Oh, thanks for that info. Does it mean that I will need a separate external xover ?

 

Perhaps I'll try running without the sub and  listen to the results. I've had people tell me that a sub diminishes sound quality, but  I vividly remember one of the best systems I heard, quite a number of years ago, consisted of a pair of small speakers ( can't recollect what they were ), powered by an Audio Note amp, with a REL sub.

It blew me away with how good organ music was presented.

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16 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Oh, thanks for that info. Does it mean that I will need a separate external xover ?

Alas that particular subwoofer from Rel doesn't come with a crossover you can use (other brands do.) There's no such thing as "need" but you are likely to get more of what you want with that combination.

 

17 minutes ago, Berkel said:

I vividly remember one of the best systems I heard, quite a number of years ago, consisted of a pair of small speakers ( can't recollect what they were ), powered by an Audio Note amp, with a REL sub.

It blew me away with how good organ music was presented.

No doubt, but execution is more important than the components. Without knowing how it was set up it's really guessing and not comparable.

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37 minutes ago, Berkel said:

Thanks Con,

I'm not very good with technical matters connected with audio, but I interpret your contribution as meaning that the connection of the sub woofer to the amp can vary and produce less strain on the speakers.... am I correct ? My current set up is having the sub connector cable  ( Neutrink )attached to the speaker binding posts of the amp, which REL recommends.

I didn't even think about the fact that your speakers are being feed a full range signal. Yes, you'd need a high-pass filter that gets rids of the bass to your main speakers that corresponds to the low pass crossover that the REL's have. And it's passive so you can't filter out the bass from the mains at the moment unless you work out a way of powering the REL.

 

One solution would be to get a decent subwoofer amplifier that has a built in high and low pass filter. Most of them will allow you to either feed the full signal from the amp', send the low freqs to the sub and the highs pass through to the main speakers. They mostly allow you to do this at a low signal level too which may or may not be preferable.

Or you could buy another subwoofer that has it's own amplfier.

 

Either way, you need to be able to filter the low freq's getting to the mains.

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I suggest improving the source and speakers first, and then looking at amplification etc., if required. 

I would get a Chord Mojo and use that as an external DAC for the CD player.  Great little DACs which sound amazing. I had one and loved it. You can pick it up around the $400 mark. 

Next pick up some floor standers. 

I saw some great deals in the classified for custom (DIY) speakers around the $1200 mark. 

 

I am sure these would make a marked improvement on the sound.  

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@andyr

So it looks like B&W spkrs need huge amounts of power for them to sound their best.  :(

Yes, I can vouch for this with my PMC'S, 100 into 8 ohms just wasn'y controlling the lower end, once the Newprime class 'D'  and 200 watts into 8 ohms was put in place, problem solved, a revelation across mid to lower frequencies, real punch and power.

 

You could fiddle around with cross over on the REL, but I don't believe it would help with the kind of music you listen to.

 

*Firstly, I would seriously look at audiotioning something with huge drivers 10-12 inches, something from Cerwin Vega, old JBL's or if you require more accuracy, Spatial open baffle would be ideal. Here, you'll engage greater scale and your listening preferences might sound ok.

 

if this doesn't work, do what @Irekrecommends, start all over again.

 

*Marantz 15s1 SACD player for $950 in SNA, crazy value and honest player.

PMC 25.21,   2.2k used, you'll get separation and good scale, accuracy, brilliant timing.

 

 

 

Frank.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

d

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1 hour ago, deepthought said:

I didn't even think about the fact that your speakers are being feed a full range signal. Yes, you'd need a high-pass filter that gets rids of the bass to your main speakers that corresponds to the low pass crossover that the REL's have. And it's passive so you can't filter out the bass from the mains at the moment unless you work out a way of powering the REL.

 

One solution would be to get a decent subwoofer amplifier that has a built in high and low pass filter. Most of them will allow you to either feed the full signal from the amp', send the low freqs to the sub and the highs pass through to the main speakers. They mostly allow you to do this at a low signal level too which may or may not be preferable.

Or you could buy another subwoofer that has it's own amplfier.

 

Either way, you need to be able to filter the low freq's getting to the mains.

The REL T3 has its' own 150 W amp.

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55 minutes ago, maximus said:

@andyr

So it looks like B&W spkrs need huge amounts of power for them to sound their best.  :(

Yes, I can vouch for this with my PMC'S, 100 into 8 ohms just wasn'y controlling the lower end, once the Newprime class 'D'  and 200 watts into 8 ohms was put in place, problem solved, a revelation across mid to lower frequencies, real punch and power.

 

You could fiddle around with cross over on the REL, but I don't believe it would help with the kind of music you listen to.

 

*Firstly, I would seriously look at audiotioning something with huge drivers 10-12 inches, something from Cerwin Vega, old JBL's or if you require more accuracy, Spatial open baffle would be ideal. Here, you'll engage greater scale and your listening preferences might sound ok.

 

if this doesn't work, do what @Irekrecommends, start all over again.

 

*Marantz 15s1 SACD player for $950 in SNA, crazy value and honest player.

PMC 25.21,   2.2k used, you'll get separation and good scale, accuracy, brilliant timing.

 

 

 

Frank.

 

 

I'm so surprised that my B&Ws would need THAT much power !

I've used them with 40 & 60 wpc amps and they sounded quite good.

From past experience, speakers with 12 or 15 " woofers can sound " flabby " in the bass.

At one time, I owned Tannoy Balmorals which were fantastic and had huge bass, but it was overblown

whereas in my early days into " proper " fidelity, I had a pair of ( you may not believe it ) Hafler cylindrical speakers with 2 x 6 1/2 + tweeter drivers, and they were damn good ( or I wasn't as discerning back then ! ). What proved the point to me about the Tannoys, was visiting a church in Germany, which housed a famous Baroque organ. Hearing it live showed that the Tannoy's bass was exaggerated.

Should I look at acquiring higher sensitivity speakers, which should allow a wider range of amps ?

 

55 minutes ago, maximus said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

d

 

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OK, go it.

Your preamp seems to have 2 lots of outputs. Run one to the power amp' and the other to the RCA inputs of the REL.

On the outputs to the power amp, use something like this - https://www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1/products/linkwitz-riley-2-way-active-crossover-fully-assembled-xover-2 to filter out the low frequencies to the power amp. 

About $140 delivered for 2 (one for each channel). You'll need a DC power pack or linear power supply. Sorted....

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2 minutes ago, deepthought said:

OK, go it.

Your preamp seems to have 2 lots of outputs. Run one to the power amp' and the other to the RCA inputs of the REL.

On the outputs to the power amp, use something like this - https://www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1/products/linkwitz-riley-2-way-active-crossover-fully-assembled-xover-2 to filter out the low frequencies to the power amp. 

About $140 delivered for 2 (one for each channel). You'll need a DC power pack or linear power supply. Sorted....

Does it matter whether it's the Left or Right output from the pre , as there's only 1 rca on the REL for what they call " low level " ?  A NAD amp I owned some time ago, had a specific " sub out " rca, which worked well.

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1 minute ago, Berkel said:

Does it matter whether it's the Left or Right output from the pre , as there's only 1 rca on the REL for what they call " low level " ?  A NAD amp I owned some time ago, had a specific " sub out " rca, which worked well.

OK, so it's summed mono.

 

One of these (preferably better quality) will do the trick:

MULTICOMP PRO PSG02777

 

 

 

REL T3 - Hi-Fi Database - Subwoofers

Edited by deepthought
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9 minutes ago, deepthought said:

OK, go it.

Your preamp seems to have 2 lots of outputs. Run one to the power amp' and the other to the RCA inputs of the REL.

On the outputs to the power amp, use something like this - https://www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1/products/linkwitz-riley-2-way-active-crossover-fully-assembled-xover-2 to filter out the low frequencies to the power amp. 

About $140 delivered for 2 (one for each channel). You'll need a DC power pack or linear power supply. Sorted....

or this :) :) :)

 

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Not sure on the specs on that. Looks to be "passive" so no idea what the slopes will be like (1st order, 2nd order) etc.

Worth checking out perhaps

I'd still use an RCA summer, like the Ebay one above to feed from stereo into the mono RCA in the REL.

Edited by deepthought
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1 hour ago, maximus said:

*Marantz 15s1 SACD player for $950 in SNA, crazy value and honest player.

PMC 25.21,   2.2k used, you'll get separation and good scale, accuracy, brilliant timing.

 

I agree with those PMC 25.21, small bookshelves with sub will handle congested music better then many floorstanders under $5k. When it comes to accuracy in normal volume they can compete against B&W 805d3. 

But PMC with class D amp is getting very close to active studio monitors. 

 

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I can verify what some posters have said about b&w speakers needing lots of power. I have floorstanders CM10 S2 and originally had a Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 3 amplifier driving them. They sounded good but as I listened to them more I thought they were lacking something. Unfortunately the Emo amp blew a component and while it was off getting repaired I did some research on other listeners experiences with CM10s and purchased an Elektra HD Reference 300 watt amp. Wow, it made a massive difference to the sound. The speakers were more alive and bass response improved dramatically, so I suggest you probably would notice a difference with more power, at least an amp that can handle the range of impedance that the B&W CM speakers seem to need. My thoughts only based on my experience...other posters are much more knowledgeable than me on the technical issues. Unfortunately Elektra amps are not cheap, but they sure do deliver the power.

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Amplifiers are a funny thing when you are looking at pairing them with speakers.

 

I have played around a fair bit and am now running a pair of Tannoy DC1000 concentrics with an Old Richter Son of Thore sub in my Dinning Room and have to say am very impressed using an A/B class Kenwood player.

 

My lounge am running Snell Type B's which were powered by a Yamaha A1, then went to the Yamaha Ax1 for more power (170x170w), then went to a Yamaha 2602M (260x260w) using the Yamaha Pre CX-A5000 alot better giving the speakers a chance to breath easy when needed.

I also have a Emotiva XPA3 Gen1 seems to be alright but no good when using more than 75% of its power so use that on my rear and centre channels only now. (It blew a channel running at 80% continuous).

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, IanRM said:

I can verify what some posters have said about b&w speakers needing lots of power. I have floorstanders CM10 S2 and originally had a Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 3 amplifier driving them. They sounded good but as I listened to them more I thought they were lacking something. Unfortunately the Emo amp blew a component and while it was off getting repaired I did some research on other listeners experiences with CM10s and purchased an Elektra HD Reference 300 watt amp. Wow, it made a massive difference to the sound. The speakers were more alive and bass response improved dramatically, so I suggest you probably would notice a difference with more power, at least an amp that can handle the range of impedance that the B&W CM speakers seem to need. My thoughts only based on my experience...other posters are much more knowledgeable than me on the technical issues. Unfortunately Elektra amps are not cheap, but they sure do deliver the power.

Thanks Ian,

That certainly is very interesting, especially from your 1st hand experience.

Dennis

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