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"Tidal Misleading Listeners" - Neil Young


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11 minutes ago, Marc said:

 

I never suggested they shouldn't. Not sure why you felt the need to point that out.

 

jeez everyone is touchy in this thread (I was simply agreeing with you)

Sorry I'll stay out from now on

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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I think that’s rather harsh. If MQA makes the claim that they bring you closer to what the artist intended and the whole chain is “authenticated”, then they’d better actually do that.  Neil Young sa

I'm with the artist here. It's bad enough the record companies not giving a flying fig for music quality ("here, have a a mp3 download with that"). Neil seems to be one of the few artists who is passi

Incredible to hear Neil Young being criticised by record lovers considering he has been critical of CDs as far back as the the time they were invented and has been relentless in his criticism of the f

8 hours ago, BlueOceanBoy said:

The simple fact is (and maybe NY is exempt from this - though we all remember Pono) that DSD, re-mastering, HD, MQA and Hi-Res are all marketing ploys to get more $$ out of the catalogues that music companies own.

 

I know this is true with some big labels that are largely hostage to their marketing departments, but it’s not at all true in general or for all new releases.

 

I prefer, and tend to give my money to, labels that put the utmost care into recording and mastering, and that pay the artists their fair share. Many of those that do care about quality recording and mastering will happily sell you the unadulterated product (in HiRes or DSD), and I’m happy and eager to buy that for a few dollars extra. Why subject a fine product to conversion and compression, just to save storage? Storage and bandwidth are cheap these days, and getting cheaper. At the same time, I completely understand that lesser versions (MP3, AAC, shellac, vinyl, wax or whatever) are cut for customers who like fast food or steampunk (nothing wrong with either), but for my own listening at home I will always try to get as close to the original master as I can. With new recordings, in particular of classical music, this is getting easier all the time.

 

On the other hand, taking an old product and trying to upsell it in new clothes (like the whole remastering in HD craze) is usually dishonest and deserves all the scorn it gets.

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2 hours ago, Marc said:

 

Yep, fair point. But they pay him - he doesn't have to pay a royalty to MQA under those platforms.

Yeah but I think the issue for Neil is that they are messing with his 'masters' and given how particular he is about the SQ of his material (pretty rare these days we'd have to say) you get an upstart like Tidal coming along purporting to offer some kind of 'enhancement' and well... It'll end in tears.. but that's a a song by another band so :offtopic:

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Am I the only one who finds it completely ironic that his catalogue is on Spotify? Talk about degradation!?

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18 minutes ago, G_goodwin said:

Am I the only one who finds it completely ironic that his catalogue is on Spotify? Talk about degradation!?

Down sampling is not Neil’s issue, it is the use of the term master, Tidal’s master is not what Neil’s definition of master is, and not his master version, fair enough I reckon.

Edited by awayward
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Anybody that cares about artists being fairly treated, ie paid appropriately, shouldn't use a streaming service at all. I'm actually surprised Neil has his catalogue on such services, unless he gets so many plays it makes it worth his while.

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I had recently noticed many (but not all) NY albums missing from Tidal and this thread explains why.

 

I think it would have been better to just remove the MQA versions of NY albums from Tidal and leave the "original" versions there as it is annoying not to have them there. 

 

Many artists have both MQA and "original" versions of albums on Tidal - maybe I need to do a comparison some time to see what the differences are (and how audible they are to me personally).  Although I guess I would need someone else to choose which to play so it would be "blind".    

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9 minutes ago, vgcr said:

Although I guess I would need someone else to choose which to play so it would be "blind".    

 

Ideally yes.   I often get my wife to help do things like this.  Just makes it more real.  You need to level match them however if Tidal doesn't.

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52 minutes ago, vgcr said:

 

 

Many artists have both MQA and "original" versions of albums on Tidal -

 

More and more I'm noticing that the 'original' versions are no longer available on the MQA version.

Tidal seems to be removing the choice

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21 hours ago, awayward said:

Down sampling is not Neil’s issue, it is the use of the term master, Tidal’s master is not what Neil’s definition of master is, and not his master version, fair enough I reckon.


 

From what I read, he mentions he’s upset with the degradation of the original artist’s work, artist’s intent. Shouldn’t Spotify’s degradation be grouped into that camp if that is the core of his issue? Alternatively, if I’m incorrect in my interpretation, Spotify is certainly not providing anything close to his master version. I didn’t read anything there where he mentioned he has no problem with down sampling. Did I miss it? 

 

I agree with @Marc, ulterior motive perhaps.

 

Edited by G_goodwin
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There's a very interesting thread about the MQA filter and "Mastering" on Audiophile Style. 

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Hi All,

  NY’s specific grumble was that it says “Master” (he said Masters, but we’ll forgive him his error) and that it implied it was his own master, which it isn’t. He specifically said that if it said, “Tidal Masters” (again the wrong name, and if he can’t be thorough enough to get the name right...), that he’d be okay with it. 


Well, sorry, NY, but nowhere in the Tidal literature, app or webpage does it say that. Indeed, there’s a bit under “what is Tidal Master Audio” where it explicitly says it’s a version from their partner MQA. 
 

I’m cynical, too. His own formats have failed and he’s trying again. Blustering like his President at perceived injustice. I get it, but I think he’s going about it the wrong way. I’ve only recently discovered his music, and it’s been via streaming. I suppose I can hunt out CD and vinyl to keep listening. Or buy downloads. But, for now he’s extricated himself from listening room. That makes me a bit sad. 

FEA44E5B-CD1E-4F68-BE6B-15A62C33ACEB.png

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Slightly off topic, but is Neil doing his own website?

 

That is one of the worst sites I've seen since GeoCities....

I was gonna share the link around to a few friends, but I don't want to be responsible for sending anyone to that disaster.

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1 hour ago, AussieMick said:

Hi All,

  NY’s specific grumble was that it says “Master” (he said Masters, but we’ll forgive him his error) and that it implied it was his own master, which it isn’t. He specifically said that if it said, “Tidal Masters” (again the wrong name, and if he can’t be thorough enough to get the name right...), that he’d be okay with it. 


Well, sorry, NY, but nowhere in the Tidal literature, app or webpage does it say that. Indeed, there’s a bit under “what is Tidal Master Audio” where it explicitly says it’s a version from their partner MQA. 
 

I’m cynical, too. His own formats have failed and he’s trying again. Blustering like his President at perceived injustice. I get it, but I think he’s going about it the wrong way. I’ve only recently discovered his music, and it’s been via streaming. I suppose I can hunt out CD and vinyl to keep listening. Or buy downloads. But, for now he’s extricated himself from listening room. That makes me a bit sad. 

FEA44E5B-CD1E-4F68-BE6B-15A62C33ACEB.png

 

'

This is what MQA says about MQA.



MQA is the breakthrough audio technology that enables music fans to stream the original master recording into their home, car or on their mobile.

 

I guess Neil Young is objecting to the claim that it's the "original master recording"

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12 minutes ago, AussieMick said:

“...certainly stretch to nine figures.”  Wow 

Nice, how many tidal streams would it take to make $150m? 😂

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Imagine having a few hits in the late 80s, thinking you'd be able to retire on it for good then finding streaming services etc eroded your royalty stream so much that you have to get out and start playing live again.

 

Playing live into your 70s must be really hard work and not for everyone, although Paul McCartney does make it look easy.

 

Selling your catalog is the last bastion of real value old artists can unlock before they give up the ghost. 

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2 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

Selling your catalog is the last bastion of real value old artists can unlock before they give up the ghost. 


Unlocking money from your catalog is not new. Remember Bowie Bonds?

 

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6843009/david-bowies-bowie-bonds-55-million-wall-street-prudential

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yeah Bowie was a freaking visionary though.  He could see a future when your music ran like water out of a tap and made sure to cash in on it early.

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Re sale of 50% of Neil Young’s catalog 

My preference would have been to make a long lease for the work and place conditions on the works use ect 

 

By doing that, an artist can still have control of ones work 

 

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12 hours ago, two fold said:

Wow.  I thought Hipgnosis were a graphic design company specialising in "arty" album sleeve design in the 70's.  I thought they would have probably disappeared by now. 

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I don't object to what Neil has done.  There are not many artists who take a stand trying to ensure the audio quality of their work is delivered to their fans.  There are not many artists who are in a position to take a stand against the new music industry digital controllers exploiting the artists to a much greater degree than the recording industry has done previously (Taylor Swift is another example, David Crosby has had a rant but he doesn't have an influential catalogue to the same degree as Young and Swift has).  Young has made attempts to control of his catalogue before, and not always succeeded, but his work will always be available in one format or another. 

 

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29 minutes ago, audiofeline said:

Wow.  I thought Hipgnosis were a graphic design company specialising in "arty" album sleeve design in the 70's.  I thought they would have probably disappeared by now. 

I initially thought Storm and Aubrey and Peter (RIP) had resurrected their brand, but no. Not related at all. Someone just repurposing the name. 

 

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I used to have a Tidal subscription.  Streaming MQA did sound better than streaming 16bit on that platform.  I think Tidal calling their MQA as Master quality is misleading.  It is not Master quality. 

 

I returned to Qobuz because that platform has a better catalogue of music.  

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On 06/01/2021 at 4:47 PM, AussieMick said:

Blustering like his President at perceived injustice.

Obviously a Marxist MSM lover.Let the Corps own the world huh, no matter what fraud is used.

I just listened to NY today on Spotify. Great Background music. Tried Tidal a year or two back and found it a pain in the ass. When I'm listening intently, I get the old LP out. BTW, the RSD MASTER of "Four Way Street" is fantastic and every CSNY lover should pick it up if they see it for sale.

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On 08/01/2021 at 12:06 PM, GroovyGuru said:

I think Tidal calling their MQA as Master quality is misleading.  It is not Master quality. 

completely agree, I will be switching to Qoboz the moment I can

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MQA is trying to control the whole recording chain so that they can control everything.

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10 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

Yep. Same here

 

This and many other comments, niggles etc,   have me thinking Tidal are making some big mistakes.  The high pricing not least amongst them.

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100 % agree with Neil here.

 

The public has been lied to ever since 1983 with the totally incorrect 

  " Perfect Sound Forever"  Philips and Sony execs should have gone to jail over that total lie.

 

  Master recording always relates to the master tape.  For Tidal to call their MQA release as Master recordings is a total lie and Jay Z should be in jail 👍😊

Edited by metal beat
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4 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

completely agree, I will be switching to Qoboz the moment I can

 

Terrifyingly, Qobuz has no less than 69 Neil Young albums. Is there more than one Neil Young?

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11 hours ago, Steffen said:

 

Terrifyingly, Qobuz has no less than 69 Neil Young albums. Is there more than one Neil Young?

If you are lost I can tell you the 6 records that the other 63 are built on😀

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On 04/01/2021 at 11:28 AM, BlueOceanBoy said:

e simple fact is (and maybe NY is exempt from this - though we all remember Pono) that DSD, re-mastering, HD, MQA and Hi-Res are all marketing ploys to get more $$ out of the catalogues

 

DSD is a marketing ploy?   That  statement used to be pushed by makers of PCM only DACS who didn't know how to decode DSD with their gear. Not many left these days.

 

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58 minutes ago, TP1 said:

DSD is a marketing ploy?

Well yes and no! Direct Stream Digital is obviously a format like PCM. The marketing part is how it is "sold" as being more detailed or more "analogue" as it has a much higher sampling frequency than PCM. The simple fact remains that it is the quality of the recording or "master"(!) that determines the majority of how "good" the music will sound. Now if you listen in mp3, then you only have yourself to blame but blind testing between DSD and PCM yields no discernible difference. We mostly "hear" what we want to "hear". It's all subjective bias. For more information, I'll return back to our good friends at Mojo-Audio:

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/

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So much has already been documented regarding the questionable "technical merits" and business objectives of MQA. IMO, MQA is a format we just don't need. 

 

Its a clear control and money play, benefiting a few, while delivering very little for consumers. 

I suspect and fear as more and more record labels jump on board, consumers will have increasingly less choice in what format they can stream. 

I just hope this madness doesn't impact alternative streaming services. 

 

IMO, MQA has nothing to do with better audio for consumers.

As I see more and more Flac files replaced with resampled MQA files, this is confirmed.

Resampling catalogues of 44.1 music into MQA format does nothing for MQA/Tidal's reputation. 

 

I suspect once an alternate to Tidal exists in Australia, and Roon provide integration, many users will be jumping ship.. 

 

 

Edited by Grizaudio
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15 hours ago, BlueOceanBoy said:

The simple fact remains that it is the quality of the recording or "master"(!) that determines the majority of how "good" the music will sound.

 

This ^

 

And if MQA (and TIDAL) are falsely claiming that they are giving us the "master" then I'm all in favour of big hitters like Neil Young calling them out

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Googling Quboz, it seems Tidal have paid for a reference to Quboz in the paid search result. Does anyone else find this misleading...... ? 

 

 

 

F2A01FB4-A997-4381-8799-A0635A30FCA0.jpeg

Edited by Grizaudio
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