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"Tidal Misleading Listeners" - Neil Young


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Saw this on another forum, it seems Neil Young has removed his catalog from Tidal (my underlining)

 

"TIDAL is calling their files of my songs Masters. But Tidal’s MQA files are not my masters. I make my masters - not TIDAL. I don’t need some hocus-pocus file manipulation that claims to improve my work. I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound. If TIDAL referred to their titles as TIDAL MASTERS, I would have no problem, but they don’t. They call them Masters. I had my music removed from that platform. They are not my masters."

 

https://neilyoungarchives.com/news/1

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I think that’s rather harsh. If MQA makes the claim that they bring you closer to what the artist intended and the whole chain is “authenticated”, then they’d better actually do that.  Neil Young sa

I'm with the artist here. It's bad enough the record companies not giving a flying fig for music quality ("here, have a a mp3 download with that"). Neil seems to be one of the few artists who is passi

Incredible to hear Neil Young being criticised by record lovers considering he has been critical of CDs as far back as the the time they were invented and has been relentless in his criticism of the f

Bugger him, I was wondering why I kept getting the notification ‘Asset is not ready for playback’ on any of his albums!😡

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But aside from his personal feelings about it,  I must admit I also thought that terminology was a bit misleading.  I get what they are trying to say, but they could have found a new term instead of  re-using an old one.

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16 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

Bugger him,


I think that’s rather harsh. If MQA makes the claim that they bring you closer to what the artist intended and the whole chain is “authenticated”, then they’d better actually do that. 
Neil Young says they aren’t, so I think he is absolutely entitled to arc up about it. 

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If only other artists follow his lead...

 

Neil Young has a history of being outspoken and many people will just shrug and move on.  

 

P/s link not working...

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I'm with the artist here. It's bad enough the record companies not giving a flying fig for music quality ("here, have a a mp3 download with that"). Neil seems to be one of the few artists who is passionate about the listener hearing what he hears in the studio. Good on him! Few others care for the consumer.

 

Seems like he's considered MQA as an emulation logarithm and found it lacking.

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7 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

The link doesn’t seem to work on my phone but does work on my computer. Not sure why 

Here is his article:

 

WHY I’M NOT ON TIDAL

TIDAL is calling their files of my songs Masters. But Tidal’s MQA files are not my masters. I make my masters - not TIDAL. I don’t need some hocus-pocus file manipulation that claims to improve my work. I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound. If TIDAL referred to their titles as TIDAL MASTERS, I would have no problem, but they don’t. They call them Masters. I had my music removed from that platform. They are not my masters.

tidalmisleadinglistenersTIDAL FALSELY LABELING MY RECORDINGS AS MASTERS

Tidal’s master is a degradation of the original to make it fit in a box that collects royalties. That money ultimately is paid by listeners. I am not behind it. I am out of there. Gone. My masters are the original.

AMAZON HD and Qobuz are good alternatives to TIDAL where the real music - exactly as made by the artists and producers - is played. They play my masters. I don’t care if I am the last of a dying breed. I am proud to stand up for the work I did with my friends over the last 55 years. I don’t need or want Tidal’s so called improvements. I have heard them. They are degraded from my masters. They are manipulated and not our original work. I don’t buy the TIDAL hype.

MQA is the company supplying technology to TIDAL. In their own official descriptions they go into what they did to my original files. They altered them and charge a royalty. I feel that my master files are in no way improved. They are degraded and manipulated. I made them. I know the difference. I can hear it.

Neil Young

 

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That’s right, I want my tracks mastered by some 75yo muso who’s probably got less than 30% of his hearing left! That’s the only way of future proofing (I’m going to be 75 years old one day, too). ;)

 

That said, MQA is a scam, designed to shoehorn DRM back into the high-res music downloads and streaming market. It should be burned on a stake, not fawned over. It’s the HDCP of high-res music. Also, lossy compression.

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Incredible to hear Neil Young being criticised by record lovers considering he has been critical of CDs as far back as the the time they were invented and has been relentless in his criticism of the format

Not only that he actually makes the music 

Im not personally interested in the format wars but I’m inclined to believe musicians over stereo lovers on the subject of sound

 

 

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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:


I think that’s rather harsh. If MQA makes the claim that they bring you closer to what the artist intended and the whole chain is “authenticated”, then they’d better actually do that. 
Neil Young says they aren’t, so I think he is absolutely entitled to arc up about it. 


FFS, stuff him then!!😄 I’m a Neil Young tragic and love his music an I understand his stance...........I’ve got family visiting from Melbourne and Tidal playing out on our back deck has been getting a real workout, but tried to put a playlist of Neil Young on the other day and it wouldn’t play. The bugger him comment was meant in jest and I’m pretty sure you new that anyway.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

(PS) Back to vinyl I guess for Neil, but hard to get that outside on the back deck.😡

Edited by cheekyboy
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3 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

The bugger him comment was meant in jest and I’m pretty sure you new that anyway.

It wasn’t clear to me that it was in jest. I read the post, complete with angry face, as being... well...... angry. 
 

Working out what people really mean is hard enough in person...,

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1 hour ago, keyse1 said:

Incredible to hear Neil Young being criticised by record lovers considering he has been critical of CDs as far back as the the time they were invented and has been relentless in his criticism of the format

Not only that he actually makes the music 

Im not personally interested in the format wars but I’m inclined to believe musicians over stereo lovers on the subject of sound

 

 

 

I know Neil Young can be outspoken and is protective of his own material, but I’ve not read too much criticism of him by record lovers for his stance? I have a big collection of NY albums on vinyl, but I will still listen to him on CD and as I often do, on Tidal too. When I couldn’t get his albums to play the other day on Tidal, I speculated to my girls that he probably cracked the sh1ts with Tidal and withdrew his catalogue.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited by cheekyboy
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Neil Young has always been hell bent on reproduction authenticity, and always sticks by his methods and loyalties.  I admire that.  Also, once you've produced a repertoire and following such as his, and have maintained integrity to the music first and foremost, you most certainly earn the right to opinion!

This highlights a real concern in this modern age.  Are you getting what you think you're getting, and more importantly, are the artists getting paid for their material?

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10 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

It wasn’t clear to me that it was in jest. I read the post, complete with angry face, as being... well...... angry. 
 

Working out what people really mean is hard enough in person...,

 

Still going!..........I did not mean the term in a literal sense, FFS, which I presume you know what it means. I was annoyed that I couldn’t play my saved playlist of Neil Young albums on Tidal is all, but let me repeat, I understand and support his stance, I’ll just need to go put a vinyl album on or heaven forbid a CeeDee instead!!🤪

Hope that clears it up.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited by cheekyboy
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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Here is his article:

 

WHY I’M NOT ON TIDAL

TIDAL is calling their files of my songs Masters. But Tidal’s MQA files are not my masters. I make my masters - not TIDAL. I don’t need some hocus-pocus file manipulation that claims to improve my work. I made my masters the way I wanted them to sound. If TIDAL referred to their titles as TIDAL MASTERS, I would have no problem, but they don’t. They call them Masters. I had my music removed from that platform. They are not my masters.

tidalmisleadinglistenersTIDAL FALSELY LABELING MY RECORDINGS AS MASTERS

Tidal’s master is a degradation of the original to make it fit in a box that collects royalties. That money ultimately is paid by listeners. I am not behind it. I am out of there. Gone. My masters are the original.

AMAZON HD and Qobuz are good alternatives to TIDAL where the real music - exactly as made by the artists and producers - is played. They play my masters. I don’t care if I am the last of a dying breed. I am proud to stand up for the work I did with my friends over the last 55 years. I don’t need or want Tidal’s so called improvements. I have heard them. They are degraded from my masters. They are manipulated and not our original work. I don’t buy the TIDAL hype.

MQA is the company supplying technology to TIDAL. In their own official descriptions they go into what they did to my original files. They altered them and charge a royalty. I feel that my master files are in no way improved. They are degraded and manipulated. I made them. I know the difference. I can hear it.

Neil Young

 

Yes, was using phone. Thank you for cut and paste!  But could not read in dark mode on phone!  😛 🤣 

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Very interesting pov from Young. Makes me want to look into Amazon HD.

 

If it wasn't for the free, or very cheap plan I'm on now, I wouldn't use Tidal.

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Well the "old man" with a "heart of gold" sure knows how to get us "rockin in the free world" 😝 It's all very well for NY to spit the dummy and a fair call for any artist of integrity. It's us 'audiophiliacs' who have to pick up the pieces though for being poorly served by the music industry that we pay for. The simple fact is (and maybe NY is exempt from this - though we all remember Pono) that DSD, re-mastering, HD, MQA and Hi-Res are all marketing ploys to get more $$ out of the catalogues that music companies own. You pay your money and you take your choice and we buy as much hyped and reviewed HiFi as we can afford to listen to our favourite artists, who, by the way are not all blameless. There are so many formats that it is very difficult in our modern lives to have it all in one place. CDs, vinyl, NAS, streaming, Apple Music, Amazon, etc. Then, you need all of the kit to listen to it. One man's Redbook is another's hi-res FLAC. I'll trade your MP3 for an AAC etc.

In summary, we've become used to having as much of what we want in one place (or several, like Netflix, Stan, Amazon, Binge, Disney, Apple, Foxtel!!) and we want choices. Where I disagree with NY is that as an "artist", he is restricting my choices to listen to what I've paid for. He is dictating to me how I should listen to his music - or don't!

For those of you that are about to launch into how - DSD is better than PCM and MQA is fake news, I urge you to read articles like this:

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/the-24bit-delusion/

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3 minutes ago, BlueOceanBoy said:

DSD, re-mastering, HD, MQA and Hi-Res are all marketing ploys to get more $$ out of the catalogues that music companies own. You pay your money and you take your choice and we buy as much hyped and reviewed HiFi as we can afford to listen to our favourite artists, who, by the way are not all blameless. There are so many formats that it is very difficult in our modern lives to have it all in one place. CDs, vinyl, NAS, streaming, Apple Music, Amazon, etc. Then, you need all of the kit to listen to it. One man's Redbook is another's hi-res FLAC. I'll trade your MP3 for an AAC etc.

 

I saw it all coming. 

 

Cassettes were the first rip-off format.  I went straight back to my vinyl records.  Only bought some CDs for portability, use in cars etc, now converted to mp3/flac and still only for convenience.  I keep trying streaming and it just leaves me unenthusiastic.   Still playing my vinyl (and buying more).

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PS - disclosure - I only listen to Tidal via Roon and NAS FLAC (HD of course!). So I'm sure that NY would feel I'm a devil worshiper and maybe I am!

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50 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

More incentive to move to Qoboz - if we ever get it here that is

 

Not long now.

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1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

I saw it all coming. 

 

Cassettes were the first rip-off format.  I went straight back to my vinyl records.  Only bought some CDs for portability, use in cars etc, now converted to mp3/flac and still only for convenience.  I keep trying streaming and it just leaves me unenthusiastic.   Still playing my vinyl (and buying more).

As teenager growing up in the '80's, cassettes were not a ripoff, they were awesome.  Were they better than vinyl - absolutely, in a car or in a walkman. The ability to take your music with you everywhere was where it was at especially when you got your first car which you and your mates ripped out the standard clunker and put in a fine pioneer, jvc or akai. 

 

I often think the indulgences we have today with almost anything available everywhere is similar. I am heavily invested in vinyl as I love it and I believe sounds the best. Still pretty useless though on a long car trip.

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1 minute ago, rodders3 said:

As teenager growing up in the '80's, cassettes were not a ripoff, they were awesome.  Were they better than vinyl - absolutely, in a car or in a walkman. The ability to take your music with you everywhere was where it was at especially when you got your first car which you and your mates ripped out the standard clunker and put in a fine pioneer, jvc or akai. 

 

I often think the indulgences we have today with almost anything available everywhere is similar. I am heavily invested in vinyl as I love it and I believe sounds the best. Still pretty useless though on a long car trip.

 

I think I made the point about portability and use in cars as well.  Commercially released cassettes were such poor quality, bad sound, wow & flutter from cheap mechanisms in the actual cassette (not the player),  cheap shortcuts like foam pressure pads instead of metal springs with a felt pad, etc.  Everything since vinyl has been more portable, but that's where the benefit ends.

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2 hours ago, BlueOceanBoy said:

though we all remember Pono


That’s right.  I’d forgotten all about those players.

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20 minutes ago, rodders3 said:

As teenager growing up in the '80's, cassettes were not a ripoff, they were awesome.  Were they better than vinyl - absolutely, in a car or in a walkman. The ability to take your music with you everywhere was where it was at especially when you got your first car which you and your mates ripped out the standard clunker and put in a fine pioneer, jvc or akai. 

 

I often think the indulgences we have today with almost anything available everywhere is similar. I am heavily invested in vinyl as I love it and I believe sounds the best. Still pretty useless though on a long car trip.


I was a teenager in the ‘60s and the only format I can remember from then was vinyl and that’s what was played at home and at a party.

Originally cassette was pretty ordinary and it was a struggle with add on noise reduction, which usually killed the dynamics. R2R gave some good results if you were doing the recordings yourself and even cassette tape was pretty good when Dolby C came along..........far better than most of the early CDs I heard and as a consequence, I never did go away from vinyl, as many did in the ‘80s.

 

Vinyl is clearly the best format for music, but I still enjoy the convenience of streaming and even CDs every once in a while. There aren’t many vehicle manufacturers putting CD players in their cars these days.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

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Just now, cheekyboy said:

There aren’t many vehicle manufacturers putting CD players in their cars these days.

 

I have a 6 year old car with one, and I have NEVER used it.  Always use plug-in thumbdrives and bluetooth (which it also has)  when the DAB+ radio is too far away.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BlueOceanBoy said:

For those of you that are about to launch into how - DSD is better than PCM and MQA is fake news, I urge you to read articles like this:

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/the-24bit-delusion/

 

25 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Vinyl is clearly the best format for music, but I still enjoy the convenience of streaming and even CDs every once in a while. There aren’t many vehicle manufacturers putting CD players in their cars these days.


For me the format is not the point here. It’s about holding MQA to account for the claims they make. 
And it’s about Tidal not very subtly replacing their catalog with exclusively MQA so that you no longer have a choice

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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19 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 


For me the format is not the point here. It’s about holding MQA to account for the claims they make. 
And it’s about Tidal not very subtly replacing their catalog with exclusively MQA so that you no longer have a choice

Yep, that too😄.............but vinyl is still the best format.👍

 

I don’t care much what they call it on Tidal and I really don’t think Neil Young does either, but he just has an issue as to whose Master It is. 

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited by cheekyboy
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34 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

FFS this is not about formats grrrrrrr 😡

I don’t know what you’re getting your little panties in a knot about........I frankly couldn’t care less and the vinyl is the best format remark, was made with tongue planted firmly in the cheek, knowing full well it would elicit the response I got from you.

Why don’t you back up as far as you can and go take a running leap at yourself.

Edited by cheekyboy
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It wasn’t that long ago Mr. Young was in cahoots with Bob Stuart trying to get, what eventually became MQA, as the compression algorithm for his defunct Pono. It seems he really dislikes MQA now.

 

By the way, I am in complete agreement with him on this.

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29 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I don’t know what you’re getting your little panties in a knot about........I frankly couldn’t care less and the vinyl is the best format remark, was made with tongue planted firmly in the cheek, knowing full well it would elicit the response I got from you.

Why don’t you back up as far as you can and go take a running leap at yourself.

 

C'mon Keith, my comment was made in jest and I'm pretty sure you new that anyway

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38 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I don’t know what you’re getting your little panties in a knot about........I frankly couldn’t care less and the vinyl is the best format remark, was made with tongue planted firmly in the cheek, knowing full well it would elicit the response I got from you.

Why don’t you back up as far as you can and go take a running leap at yourself.

 

5 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

C'mon Keith, my comment was made in jest and I'm pretty sure you new that anyway


Agreed - use the Ignore feature or take it to PM if necessary but don't ruin the thread.

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Good for Neil. Anyone who is a real Neil tragic can subscribe to the NYA.  His Pono (not the player) 24/192 Masters are excellent. Qobuz is already here for the very small effort of signing up with VPN (explored elsewhere). Tried it, probably superior SQ wise to Tidal but I just prefer to use my JRiver library. Everything all in one place. 

 

Purchasing the Hi Res files is probably a better way to support the artists than the measly streaming royalties. But don't quote me on that... :afro:

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Devil's advocate, but the timing of this announcement and rant to me, is a touch suspicious. He's been pushing his own NYA service quite hard now which of course if his content was freely available via TIDAL, would impact his own subscriber base?

 

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37 minutes ago, Marc said:

Devil's advocate, but the timing of this announcement and rant to me, is a touch suspicious. He's been pushing his own NYA service quite hard now which of course if his content was freely available via TIDAL, would impact his own subscriber base?

 

He doesn't seem to have any issue with Amazon HD and Qobuz according to the above article, clearly stating that it is Tidal 'tampering' with his masters and representing them to be something they are not.

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1 hour ago, lemarquis said:

He doesn't seem to have any issue with Amazon HD and Qobuz according to the above article, clearly stating that it is Tidal 'tampering' with his masters and representing them to be something they are not.

 

Yep, fair point. But they pay him - he doesn't have to pay a royalty to MQA under those platforms.

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1 minute ago, Marc said:

 

Yep, fair point. But they pay him - he doesn't have to pay a royalty to MQA under those platforms.

 
and so they should (pay him, that is). It’s his material

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2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 
and so they should (pay him, that is). It’s his material

 

I never suggested they shouldn't. Not sure why you felt the need to point that out.

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