Can you help me find a tube MC Phono Stage?

[Clarets]

I'm hankering for a tube phono stage to replace my Linn Linto. Linn Akurate DSM is my preamp so I don't need a line stage. I have a VPI Scout TT with a Benz L2 wood-bodied cart and fully active Linn AV5140 (Espeks) driven by three Linn AV5105 power amps. Only need MC phono stage.

 

Disappointed with MC phono card in DSM which is too clinical and flat. In comparison Linn Linto is a more "live" presentation with more air around the instruments and more breath in voices. Think I can get more from a tube phono stage? Weirdly I have a strong hankering to see the tubes and Linnies seem to feel Supratek is a good match. Struggling to find others that might fit the bill. Ideas anyone?

[MattyW]

The best I've run bar none is the Abbas Esoteric Audio EL84 MM Preamplifier:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174500768566

 

It's 5687 based little brother is meant to be rather good too:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363161745309

 

These are related to the SW1X LPU-I am LPU-II phono stages but use a different philosophy with respect to materials used. My understanding is that SW1X take their designs a bit further as well which is in line with their higher price tag.

 

Both Abbas Esoteric Audio and SW1X Audio's design ethos eschews features and convenience in favor of the best possible sound quality. I.e. power switch MS on the back, minimal inputs yadda yadda.

 

Both of these units are MM only and so need to be paired with either a SUT or MC head amp such as the Aksa Paris @andyr has available.

 

The best SUT's I've run are the Hashimoto HM7 and Fidelity Research FRT4 with the HM7 having the sonic edge but the FRT4 killing it in terms of flexibility. These tend to be my preference for LOMC carts.

 

SUT do not work correctly with LOMM and I use the Aksa Paris with my Grado Statement Master 1, which produces the best sound I've ever experienced from vinyl playback.

 

If a 1:20 SUT is all you need I find the Chinese made Boyuu Reisong tough to beat having a similar sound to vintage Jensen SUT but a little more transparent and detailed.

 

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mt5c0az

 

I believe your Benz wood body would work fine with the Boyuu Reisong 1:20 SUT. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by MattyW

[Gryffles]

Firstly to make the suggestions helpful can you tell us your budget?

[Clarets]

54 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

Firstly to make the suggestions helpful can you tell us your budget?

I am considering the Supratek Pinot Phono only at $US 2,500 so let's put the ceiling at $US 3,000.

Not afraid to spend less than this for the right kit!!!

[crtexcnndrm99]

Don Sachs modified PH16 is another good option.

[Gryffles]

1 minute ago, Clarets said:

I am considering the Supratek Pinot Phono only at $US 2,500 so let's put the ceiling at $US 3,000.

Not afraid to spend less than this for the right kit!!!

Cool thanks. Supratek can sound good.

 

You could also find a used one of these easily given your location:

 

Herron VTPH-2A

 

Modwright PH 9.0 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Clarets said:

I'm hankering for a tube phono stage to replace my Linn Linto. Linn Akurate DSM is my preamp so I don't need a line stage. I have a VPI Scout TT with a Benz L2 wood-bodied cart and fully active Linn AV5140 (Espeks) driven by three Linn AV5105 power amps. Only need MC phono stage.

 

Disappointed with MC phono card in DSM which is too clinical and flat. In comparison Linn Linto is a more "live" presentation with more air around the instruments and more breath in voices. Think I can get more from a tube phono stage? Weirdly I have a strong hankering to see the tubes and Linnies seem to feel Supratek is a good match. Struggling to find others that might fit the bill. Ideas anyone?

 

7 minutes ago, Clarets said:

I am considering the Supratek Pinot Phono only at $US 2,500 so let's put the ceiling at $US 3,000.

Not afraid to spend less than this for the right kit!!!

 

The Pinot looks like an excellent phono stage - which doesn't rely on a SUT to deal with your Benz L2.  (It has a built-in jfet-based gain stage in front of the tubes.   )  It also offers 100, 1K and 47K loading - and I'm sure Mick would change these values if you said you wanted a choice of 'X' ohms.  Have you been able to play with different loading values on your DSM?

 

Re. your Benz L2 cart - the coil impedance of the Benz L2 is 12 ohms.  The mfr's recommendation for loading is 100 - 47K ohms.  The figure of 100 represents the standard '10x coil impedance as a minimum ' ... the figure of 47K is due to Herr Lucaschek's (unique!) preference for 47K as the optimal loading for his wood-bodied carts; I found the bass on my Benz LP sounded too floppy at 47K - and sounded its best at 100x coil impedance (which was 3300 ohms).

 

But with 100, 1000 and 47K ohms ... you have a nice choice with the Pinot.  

 

Andy

 

 

 

[pulinap]

5 hours ago, andyr said:

 

 

The Pinot looks like an excellent phono stage - which doesn't rely on a SUT to deal with your Benz L2.  (It has a built-in jfet-based gain stage in front of the tubes.   )  It also offers 100, 1K and 47K loading - and I'm sure Mick would change these values if you said you wanted a choice of 'X' ohms.  Have you been able to play with different loading values on your DSM?

 

Re. your Benz L2 cart - the coil impedance of the Benz L2 is 12 ohms.  The mfr's recommendation for loading is 100 - 47K ohms.  The figure of 100 represents the standard '10x coil impedance as a minimum ' ... the figure of 47K is due to Herr Lucaschek's (unique!) preference for 47K as the optimal loading for his wood-bodied carts; I found the bass on my Benz LP sounded too floppy at 47K - and sounded its best at 100x coil impedance (which was 3300 ohms).

 

But with 100, 1000 and 47K ohms ... you have a nice choice with the Pinot.  

 

Andy

 

 

 

Life is too short to muck around with loading...there are much better option out there...

[mloutfie]

4 hours ago, pulinap said:

Life is too short to muck around with loading...there are much better option out there...

Current mode phono? Don't think anyone making tube current based phono

[xlr8or]

My vote goes towards a used EAR 834P or 88PB MC phono stage. Have owned both along with the EAR MC4 step up passive unit. The 834P MM phono stage can be found around $1K used with the chrome deluxe MC version around $1.6K used. The 1:20 SUT on the 834P MC version would be a great match for the Benz L2. Tube rolling the 12AX7 in the 834P or PCC88 in the 88PB will be fun.

 

Here is a second hand EAR MM phono box for sale in Germany:

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EAR-Yoshino-Phonobox-MM-Neuwertig-834P-NP-1-300-/233828495470

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by xlr8or

[xlr8or]

@MattyW Have been looking at the Abbas Audio sexy looking tube-based gear for 2 years now and was wondering if he now offers 240 volt or still only 220 volt Russki AC mains units. Last time I enquired he said his demo units selling on fleabay were only 220 volt versions. Agree - he has nicely crafted tube-based phono stage, preamp and DAC units, which are most impressive.

Edited December 27, 2020 by xlr8or

[MattyW]

9 hours ago, xlr8or said:

@MattyW Have been looking at the Abbas Audio sexy looking tube-based gear for 2 years now and was wondering if he now offers 240 volt or still only 220 volt Russki AC mains units. Last time I enquired he said his demo units selling on fleabay were only 220 volt versions. Agree - he has nicely crafted tube-based phono stage, preamp and DAC units, which are most impressive.

I had him build a 240VAC version for me at the same time I ordered his fantastic DAC. Both are utterly transparent and end game.

 

EAR834? Not in the same league even after cap and tube rolling. The next best I've run wasn't tube at all, it's the Valab LCR-1 Mk3.  The Abbas is at a different level altogether 

Edited December 27, 2020 by MattyW

[xlr8or]

The 834P MC phono stage works really well with the Benz MCs requiring 1:20 step up. I have an 864B, MFA Systems Magus B2, Luxkit A3300, Eric McChanson prototype 12AU7/12AX7 phono preamp, Japanese 100v custom DIY job with 12AT7, 12AU7 and 12AX7 phono preamp, Trevor Lee's positive vibrations phono preamp and a lot of different SUTs including Audio Interface CSI, Beyer, UTC and other cans. As you can see tubes and iron for me are the go. I also like the Aesthetix Rhea and IO signature, and a few others including Manley Steelhead  Hovland HP-100, Jadis DPMC, Cary PH302, ARC SP8, 10, SP11, Paragon 12A, and AI Modulus 2/3A/B phono preamps.

 

For your EL84's here is something to drool on. I only have one but these are the best ones ever made. Coded 1608 in June 1953 in the Blackburn factory with full solid welded plates, wrinkle glass and solid disc getter.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by xlr8or

[andyr]

18 hours ago, pulinap said:

Life is too short to muck around with loading...there are much better option out there...

 

14 hours ago, mloutfie said:

Current mode phono? Don't think anyone making tube current based phono

 

Hah - P lives in his own world, Mahdie (far removed from the real world that you and I live in).  

 

Andy

 

[andyr]

13 hours ago, xlr8or said:

 

The 834P MC phono stage works really well with the Benz MCs requiring 1:20 step up.

 

 

A 1:20 SUT delivers a load of 118 ohms to the cartridge.  Totally useless for, say, the Benz LP I used to have - whose specs said "load >470 ohms " and which sounded its best at 3300 ohms.

 

Andy

 

[Telecine]

A bit of a left field choice if you are feeling adventurous, the Ampearl Re-2030" MM - phono amplifier with tubes and LCR-RIAA:

 

https://www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/index.php?thread/141691-ampearl-re-2030-mm-phonoverstärker-mit-röhren-und-lcr-riaa-der-nächste-dampfhamm/

 

https://ampearltube.com/products

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Telecine

[denimhunter]

Try to get tube phono with separate power supply (valve rectified).  And u would need to be prepare to fine tune and experiment with quality vintage tubes.  

 

This might be slightly outside ur budget, one of the better phono I heard recently (admittedly I have heard many) is the Lampizator MM phono.  

[mloutfie]

@andyrpersonally keen to try current based phono like lino C and van den hull the grail. Impedance loading are not required for those preamp

[andyr]

21 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

 

Impedance loading is not required for those preamps (current-based phono stages).

 

 

Yes, indeed.  

Andy

 

[xlr8or]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

A 1:20 SUT delivers a load of 118 ohms to the cartridge.  Totally useless for, say, the Benz LP I used to have - whose specs said "load >470 ohms " and which sounded its best at 3300 ohms.

 

Andy

 

 

This  is where the theory goes out the window regarding the 10x rule. I've played around with this idea for many years and keep reverting back to a single SUT to do the job matched for enough gain. The gain is where I always come undone. I currently have a Benz Glider and the 1:20 works extremely well. I also have a Clearaudio Concerto with 40 ohm internal coil resistance and although I've tried the magic 1:11.5 load it much prefers the 1:20 from the 834MC phono circuit inside the 864B - go figure.

[Clarets]

1 hour ago, denimhunter said:

Try to get tube phono with separate power supply (valve rectified).  And u would need to be prepare to fine tune and experiment with quality vintage tubes.  

 

This might be slightly outside ur budget, one of the better phono I heard recently (admittedly I have heard many) is the Lampizator MM phono.  

Great recommendation for the separate power supply and I'm up for tube rolling.

However I definitely would prefer an MC phono over MM. Both my carts (Benz L2 and VAS Nova Mono) are MC and I don't want an extra box in a SUT.

 

Great recommendations everyone. Keep them coming.

Comparisons with Supratek  (in many ways my "benchmark")  always welcome.

[andyr]

8 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

 

This  is where the theory goes out the window regarding the 10x rule. I've played around with this idea for many years and keep reverting back to a single SUT to do the job matched for enough gain. The gain is where I always come undone. I currently have a Benz Glider and the 1:20 works extremely well. I also have a Clearaudio Concerto with 40 ohm internal coil resistance and although I've tried the magic 1:11.5 load it much prefers the 1:20 from the 834MC phono circuit inside the 864B - go figure.

 

 

This is where we have to agree to disagree, xlr8or.    As:

 

a. it's not just a '10x' (coil impedance) rule ... it's a '10x to 100x' range.  And don't forget, Herr Lucaschek ("Mr Benz") recommends 47K for his wood-bodied carts (which include the OP's L2); this cannot be achieved with a SUT.

and

b. mixing gain with loading is not a good thing, IMO.  The two should be dealt with, independently.

 

I'm afraid I am unfamiliar with the 864B - so have no idea whether the "834MC phono circuit " inside the 864B is a SUT ... or a ss gain stage?

 

And as to "I currently have a Benz Glider and the 1:20 (SUT) works extremely well " ... I'm sure it does.    My own philosophy is based on how to get the best sound from a cart ... not just a good sound.

 

Andy

 

[denimhunter]

29 minutes ago, Clarets said:

Great recommendation for the separate power supply and I'm up for tube rolling.

However I definitely would prefer an MC phono over MM. Both my carts (Benz L2 and VAS Nova Mono) are MC and I don't want an extra box in a SUT.

 

Great recommendations everyone. Keep them coming.

Comparisons with Supratek  (in many ways my "benchmark")  always welcome.

 

39 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

 

This  is where the theory goes out the window regarding the 10x rule. I've played around with this idea for many years and keep reverting back to a single SUT to do the job matched for enough gain. The gain is where I always come undone. I currently have a Benz Glider and the 1:20 works extremely well. I also have a Clearaudio Concerto with 40 ohm internal coil resistance and although I've tried the magic 1:11.5 load it much prefers the 1:20 from the 834MC phono circuit inside the 864B - go figure.

With high impedance eg 40 ohm, that would reduce the effective gain so higher gain ratio make sense.  This is not just theory, one can hear the difference.

I am not a fan of ‘loading’!  Loading via simple resistors effectively ‘flattens’ the frequency response to account for the over shoot in the upper registers.  That’s detrimental to the sound.  Again one can clearly hear the difference loading makes.

[andyr]

21 minutes ago, Clarets said:

Great recommendation for the separate power supply and I'm up for tube rolling.

 

Doesn't the Supratek 'Pinot' have a separate power supply?  Most of Mick's other line-stage products seem to.

 

 

Andy

 

[xlr8or]

19 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

This is where we have to agree to disagree, xlr8or.    As:

 

a. it's not just a '10x' (coil impedance) rule ... it's a '10x to 100x' range.  And don't forget, Herr Lucaschek ("Mr Benz") recommends 47K for his wood-bodied carts (which include the OP's L2); this cannot be achieved with a SUT.

and

b. mixing gain with loading is not a good thing, IMO.  The two should be dealt with, independently.

 

I'm afraid I am unfamiliar with the 864B - so have no idea whether the "834MC phono circuit " inside the 864B is a SUT ... or a ss gain stage?

 

And as to "I currently have a Benz Glider and the 1:20 (SUT) works extremely well " ... I'm sure it does.    My own philosophy is based on how to get the best sound from a cart ... not just a good sound.

 

Andy

 

 

I'm interested to know how you determine the correct load for a cart. For instance the 3,300 ohm load for a 38 ohm cart.