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Hopefully someone can help advise me whether the following setup is possible with the SHD unit.

 

What I would like to do is take the analog output from my phono stage, use the SHD to convert it to digital, send that digital out of the SHD to my mac (via USB).

Then do some processing in the mac and send it back to the SHD (via USB) and then use the SHD to do its magic (crossover and DIRAC) and then convert it back to analog with volume control for my amps.

 

So the path would be (stuff in red is in the SHD)

 

Phono stage >> Analog to Digital in SHD >> Digital out from SHD (USB) >>> mac >> digital out from mac >> Digital in to SHD (USB) >> crossover/Dirac >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> amplifiers

 

 

As far as I can see, there is only one USB port on the SHD, so it would need to be sending signals both ways for this to work.

 

Does anyone know if the SHD can do such a thing?

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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Yes the all the BACCH software does all that. But even if there’s delay it doesn’t matter (or at least I see no reason why it should matter)

I assume you've read this thread? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bacch4mac-pro-edition-a-report.2373/ Of course you would have being a member of the ASR site.  

Since you already have the Babyface, you can leave it there for ADC and send the audio output from BACCH to the SHD over USB. This pic is from their webpage:  

Hmm - now that is a curly one!! 

I only have the Studio and from what I know of that, and a quick review of the manual (which covers both) I sense the answer is probably not.  The encouraging news is when you plug a SHD in it shows on a PC as both a Line In / Source and as a Line Out / Speaker at the same time.  But what I can't get my head around is the first step - routing an input to USB output - pretty sure that is not possible.  The pre-amp functionality will accept all the possible sources (Analog and Digital) and make them available for the routing and PEQ (and Dirac), but the only choice of output I believe is the final output - so Coax, AES/EBU and Analog (all of which appear to work in parallel).   Can't think of any way to verify that on the SHD.  Worth a question on the mini-DSP SHD forum.

Out of interest, are you talking about taking the low level output from phono stage so you can apply your own equalisation etc, or line out level for some other kind of processing?  Have spent a while looking at A2D with USB out options if the SHD approach isn't suitable and tested a few different approaches (Shiit Jil, Uwe Weis A2D, Behringer A2D, Parks Puffin - later ones with miniDSP USB Streamer).

Gibbo

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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Hopefully someone can help advise me whether the following setup is possible with the SHD unit.

 

What I would like to do is take the analog output from my phono stage, use the SHD to convert it to digital, send that digital out of the SHD to my mac (via USB).

Then do some processing in the mac and send it back to the SHD (via USB) and then use the SHD to do its magic (crossover and DIRAC) and then convert it back to analog with volume control for my amps.

 

 

My question is, Trev ... what processing do you want to do in your Mac that can't be done in the SHD?

 

Andy

 

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6 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

My question is, Trev ... what processing do you want to do in your Mac that can't be done in the SHD?

 

Andy

 

 

I'm using BACCH4Mac (https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/)

One of the biggest ever upgrades to my system … I'll do a full write up of it soon

 

EDIT: so I'm not not stuck on the SHD, it just seemed as if it might do what I need.

But if there was an alternative that could do the AD conversion with the loop to and from my mac as well as volume control I'd be interested. Perhaps I should have asked the more general question 

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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15 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I'm using BACCH4Mac (https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/)

One of the biggest ever upgrades to my system … I'll do a full write up of it soon

 

Reading your link ... it seems to be designed to go with their IEMs - not spkrs?

 

Quote

EDIT: so I'm not not stuck on the SHD, it just seemed as if it might do what I need.

 

But if there was an alternative that could do the AD conversion with the loop to and from my mac as well as volume control I'd be interested. Perhaps I should have asked the more general question 

 

Why not post on the miniDSP Forum?  Or ask a question of @john.reekie here - he is a miniDSP guru.  :)

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr
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Hi Trevor, 

 

Sorry but what you propose is not possible, on any existing piece of hardware.  USB is not designed to be real-time bi-directional for the data throughout required for this task.  IF a device had two independent USB ports and no shared bus, this MAY be plausible but I’m not aware of any such consumer product.

 

what you may pursue is looking at a to d via a semi pro route for the first chain of your data path to a Mac  and then USB out and into a SHD for Dirac and analog output to amp / speakers.

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as others said minidsp shd doesn't support USB out, you either use cheap (but still good quality) dedicated ADC->USB for your input recording and your SHD as output preamp/dac/dirac or 2 pcs of SHD one performing ADC and the other DAC duties

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1 minute ago, Lil Caesar said:

Hi Trevor, 

 

Sorry but what you propose is not possible, on any existing piece of hardware.  USB is not designed to be real-time bi-directional for the data throughout required for this task.  IF a device had two independent USB ports and no shared bus, this MAY be plausible but I’m not aware of any such consumer product.

 

what you may pursue is looking at a to d via a semi pro route for the first chain of your data path to a Mac  and then USB out and into a SHD for Dirac and analog output to amp / speakers.

 

Ok so could I instead take USB out of the SHD and then send digital back in via SPDIF (using a USB/SPDIF converter from a separate USB port on my mac)

 

Like this

 

Phono stage >> Analog to Digital in SHD >> Digital out from SHD (USB) >>> mac >> digital out from mac >> Digital in to SHD (SPDIF) >> crossover/Dirac >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> amplifiers

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3 minutes ago, kukynas said:

as others said minidsp shd doesn't support USB out, you either use cheap (but still good quality) dedicated ADC->USB for your input recording and your SHD as output preamp/dac/dirac or 2 pcs of SHD one performing ADC and the other DAC duties

 

I think it does support USB out

 

the manual states: (Page 29):

The SHD Series processor sends its four output channels to the computer over USB. Click on the Input button in Audio MIDI Setup to see them. These can be used to monitor or record the output channels of the processor.

 

 

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That’s USB in means USB in to your PC, it doesn’t support USB out means doesn’t act as streamer to send signal to USB capable DAC/Preamp

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5 minutes ago, kukynas said:

That’s USB in means USB in to your PC, it doesn’t support USB out means doesn’t act as streamer to send signal to USB capable DAC/Preamp

 

Sending USB out from the SHD and into a computer is exactly what I want to do

 

Phono stage >> Analog to Digital in SHD >> Digital out from SHD (USB) >>> mac >> digital out from mac >> Digital in to SHD (USB) >> crossover/Dirac >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> amplifiers

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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11 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Ok so could I instead take USB out of the SHD and then send digital back in via SPDIF (using a USB/SPDIF converter from a separate USB port on my mac)

 

Like this

 

Phono stage >> Analog to Digital in SHD >> Digital out from SHD (USB) >>> mac >> digital out from mac >> Digital in to SHD (SPDIF) >> crossover/Dirac >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> amplifiers

I don’t think so.  It’s data processing path is one way only - it won’t parse a digital signal back to the pc outside of the it’s own dedicated room correction and analysis mode.  So you’re better off getting an a to d device with USB, sending that to the Mac for your first stage processing and then using USB out from the Mac to feed the stream to the shd for Dirac and analog output.

Edited by Lil Caesar
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12 minutes ago, Lil Caesar said:

I don’t think so.  It’s data processing path is one way only - it won’t parse a digital signal back to the pc outside of the it’s own dedicated room correction and analysis mode.  So you’re better off getting an a to d device with USB, sending that to the Mac for your first stage processing and then using USB out from the Mac to feed the stream tot he shd for Dirac and analog output.

 

Sorry you lost me a bit there.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it won’t parse a digital signal back to the pc outside of the it’s own dedicated room correction and analysis mode" (EDIT: maybe it's my second point below)

 

As far as I read the manual, it will send digital out to a PC. That seems quite straightforward.

The bits where I'm unclear are:

- can it then take digital back in as I've described above, and

- is the digital it sends out to the pc simply the digitised stream from the analog input or will it apply crossover/dirac etc to it before sending it out (I've only just thought of this… if it does apply dirac etc to the stream before sending it out via USB then that's a deal breaker) 

 

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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11 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Sending USB out from the SHD and into a computer is exactly what I want to do

 

Phono stage >> Analog to Digital in SHD >> Digital out from SHD (USB) >>> mac >> digital out from mac >> Digital in to SHD (USB) >> crossover/Dirac >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> amplifiers

 

ah ok, now I got it, your >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> step is inside of SHD...

even if it stating USB is bidirectional I think it can be used at once only one way, either for AD or DA, not sure if you could use spdif into SHD from your mac for DA duties simultaneously 

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Hi Trevor, 

 

only the Dirac setup scheme sends data back to the pc.  The analog inputs go straight to it’s built in peq filters (if enabled) and then out via its dsp and dac to amps.  You can’t use its a to d stage to simultaneously send digitised audio back to the computer for preprocessing and receipt again for output to amp.

 

...actually  wrong ! 
 

2E842426-07AB-499F-9338-19941731D05B.thumb.png.c543fc0b8125a152bd9d5080f4b486cf.png
 

..it does have spdif digital out.  An spdif to USB would allow you to capture this and send it to the Mac for stage one and out again for processing via the USB in for final stage.  
 

might want to check with minidsp if the time delay - substantial I’d guess (more than a couple of Milliseconds) - would cause any issues. 

Edited by Lil Caesar
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3 minutes ago, Lil Caesar said:

Ah there’s a catch - the spdif out is split into two channels 😔

 

I think that's because it supports 4 channels spdif out 

 

Digital Audio Outputs

Four channels of digital output.

  • 2 x SPDIF on RCA connector / Isolated with digital audio transformer.

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Yeah thinking that now myself.  Still it’s better checking with minidsp to be sure cos the grouping of channels on the input side are fully user programmable so it would need to be correctly mapped.

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13 minutes ago, kukynas said:

 

ah ok, now I got it, your >>  digital to analog plus volume control >> step is inside of SHD...

even if it stating USB is bidirectional I think it can be used at once only one way, either for AD or DA, not sure if you could use spdif into SHD from your mac for DA duties simultaneously 

 

correct 

 

Everything in red is in SHD. So once digital comes back in to the SHD, I want it to just behave as per the "normal" use case (is if it was digital coming in from a DAC). So the SHD applies Dirac and crossovers and PEQ etc etc, converts to analog, does volume control and then sends the analog signal to my amps

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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53 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

is the digital it sends out to the pc simply the digitised stream from the analog input or will it apply crossover/dirac etc to it before sending it out (I've only just thought of this… if it does apply dirac etc to the stream before sending it out via USB then that's a deal breaker) 

Pretty sure this bit is going to break it - regardless of the other questions 
 

A couple of observations:

  • The SHD does appear to provide a 4 channel 'Line Out' to PC via USB as you have picked up.  I am not sure what to read it with - Vinyl Studio declares the input stream available but I don't know how to get it to select a stereo pair and monitor them.  Pic 1 below is what VS declares.
  • What I am 99% sure though is that these 4 channels of output are post PEQ and Dirac processing - that is just how the SHD works.  It takes a 2 channel input and lets you map that to the 4 output channels (Pic 2 below); then applies any transfer functions you apply (X-Over, PEQ, time delays etc, to each channel - I am 100% sure of that), and then the DIrac corrections (99% sure of that) before sending to the output channels (Pic 3 below).

I would think about SHD as the output part and use a purpose built A to D / USB converter for the input to Mac.  Behringer Ultramatch and miniDSP USB Streamer would do a good job.

 

Gibbo

Pic 1.jpg

Pic 2.jpg

Pic 3.jpg

Edited by gibbo9000
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19 minutes ago, gibbo9000 said:

What I am 99% sure though is that these 4 channels of output are post PEQ and Dirac processing - that is just how the SHD works.  It takes a 2 channel input and lets you map that to the 4 output channels (Pic 2 below); then applies any transfer functions you apply (X-Over, PEQ, time delays etc, to each channel - I am 100% sure of that), and then the DIrac corrections (99% sure of that) before sending to the output channels (Pic 3 below).

 

That may indeed be the deal breaker.

I've emailed MinDSP to ask them

 

 

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5 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

EDIT: so I'm not not stuck on the SHD, it just seemed as if it might do what I need.

But if there was an alternative that could do the AD conversion with the loop to and from my mac as well as volume control I'd be interested. Perhaps I should have asked the more general question 

 

The SHD does not do what you need. Look to pro-style convertors e.g. RME Babyface Pro, ADI-2 Pro, or MOTU, Focusrite etc.

HTH ;)

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5 hours ago, john.reekie said:

The SHD does not do what you need

Which bit of what I need is the SHD not able to do?

 

5 hours ago, john.reekie said:

Look to pro-style convertors e.g. RME Babyface Pro, ADI-2 Pro, or MOTU, Focusrite etc.

It’s not clear that any pro audio device can do all of what I need in one box (AD conversion, loop to computer, crossover and PEQ, DA conversion and have remote control)

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10 minutes ago, kukynas said:

Btw. Do you have SW to run all this real time? recording, eq and playback?

Yes the all the BACCH software does all that. But even if there’s delay it doesn’t matter (or at least I see no reason why it should matter)

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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13 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

That may indeed be the deal breaker.

 

Do you want 2 channel (full range) or 4 channel (high pass/low pass) out of the miniDSP SHD?

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1 minute ago, Satanica said:

 

Do you want 2 channel (full range) or 4 channel (high pass/low pass) out of the miniDSP SHD?

 

Both :)

 

I want 2 channel full range out via digital to my computer

 

Then, once it comes back in …..

 

I also want 4 channel highpass/low pass out via analog to my amps

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2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Both :)

 

I want 2 channel full range out via digital to my computer

 

Then, once it comes back in …..

 

I also want 4 channel highpass/low pass out via analog to my amps

 

I think you need a separate (is that so bad?) Analogue to Digital USB converter for step one like the following for example.

 

https://www.av-connection.com/?PGr=8489

 

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3 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

I think you need a separate (is that so bad?) Analogue to Digital USB converter for step one like the following for example.

 

https://www.av-connection.com/?PGr=8489

 

 

it isn't so bad, but it adds boxes and some complexity.

If the SHD could do what I wanted then I could simplify my system and remove an extra AD/DA conversion that I have to otherwise add to the chain

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13 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

That may indeed be the deal breaker.

I've emailed MinDSP to ask them

 

 

 

Ok so MiniDSP have come back confirming that it can't be done (the USB output is post processing)

😞

 

 

"The SHD will be able to output via the USB the 4ch from the post processing but not as you wish. 

 
Path will be: 
USB playback: 2ch from PC to USB of SHD
USB Recording: 4ch from SHD outputs back to PC. 
 
You can't do a loopback as you expect here through your Mac. It won't work I'm afraid. "
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11 minutes ago, Niktech said:

The RME ADI-2 Pro has most of those functions. I don't know if it has the loop back you are after though. It might be in the manual:

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1186027/Rme-Audio-Adi-2-Pro.html.

 

 

 

I will almost certainly be able to do loopback, but it can't do crossover (I need 4 analog outs)

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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

it isn't so bad, but it adds boxes and some complexity.

If the SHD could do what I wanted then I could simplify my system and remove an extra AD/DA conversion that I have to otherwise add to the chain

A bummer that SHD or something else can't do it all in one.  Does it actually add an AD/DA conversion using a separate AD - it will be digital I/F between AD and SHD in?  If neatness is a concern there is a bit of space in the SHD box - it looks possible to put the guts of the av connection device or Shiit Jil in the SHD case . . but that is a different kind of complexity . . .  

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I should probably spell out exactly the path that I have and that I'm trying to achieve

 

Noting that my speakers have a digital crossover (which is a separate box - not actually built in to the speakers) this is what I currently have

 

DAC into preamp/ TT into preamp >> preamp output into RME babyface for AD conversion >> into mac (for BACCH processing)>> back into RME babyface for DA conversion >> into digital crossover unit where it undergoes another AD/DA conversion before going to amps

 

So I have two AD/DA conversions: One in the RME babyface and another in the digital crossover unit

 

What I hoped to have was the following

 

1. Digital straight from Mac (already processed by BACCH) >> into MiniDSP SHD for crossover (still digital)>> converted to analog and out to amps (with volume control)

2. Analog from phono stage into MiniDSP SHD >>> convert to digital>> send to Mac for Bacch processing>> back to MinDSP (still digital)  for crossover >> converted to analog and out to amps

 

So it seems thet the SHD unit cannot do this. Is there any other unit that can?

Edited by sir sanders zingmore
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56 minutes ago, john.reekie said:

Since you already have the Babyface, you can leave it there for ADC and send the audio output from BACCH to the SHD over USB. This pic is from their webpage:
 

197809605_ScreenShot2020-12-21at2_33_16pm.thumb.png.49b8178345c5d28661526f91adb33b97.png

 

Yes, that's probably what I'll end up doing.

I had hoped that I could reduce the box count (and recoup some $$) and do the A/D conversion in the same unit that does crossover and preamp duties

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14 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

So it seems thet the SHD unit cannot do this. Is there any other unit that can?

 

maybe some multichannel pro audio gear from RME (Fireface UC can do in/out simultaneously) and similar but definitely not dirac equipped and you would still need to check if it can do what you want it to do, on the other hand phono to usb converter like AD Box S2 Phono USB from Pro-ject would give you straight connection to PC on AD side and potentially eliminate your typical phono stage to AD converter combo + it's small so you can hide it somewhere and not even be aware of it, Phono Box DS2 USB has hi-res AD but it's 4-5x more expensive...I'm sure there are's lot more phono to USB converters...    

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