Question for the MiniDSP SHD experts

[sir sanders zingmore]

10 minutes ago, kukynas said:

Btw. Do you have SW to run all this real time? recording, eq and playback?

Yes the all the BACCH software does all that. But even if there’s delay it doesn’t matter (or at least I see no reason why it should matter)

Edited December 20, 2020 by sir sanders zingmore

[Deepthought]

I assume you've read this thread? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bacch4mac-pro-edition-a-report.2373/

Of course you would have being a member of the ASR site.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by deepthought

[Satanica]

13 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

That may indeed be the deal breaker.

 

Do you want 2 channel (full range) or 4 channel (high pass/low pass) out of the miniDSP SHD?

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, Satanica said:

 

Do you want 2 channel (full range) or 4 channel (high pass/low pass) out of the miniDSP SHD?

 

Both

 

I want 2 channel full range out via digital to my computer

 

Then, once it comes back in …..

 

I also want 4 channel highpass/low pass out via analog to my amps

[Satanica]

2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Both

 

I want 2 channel full range out via digital to my computer

 

Then, once it comes back in …..

 

I also want 4 channel highpass/low pass out via analog to my amps

 

I think you need a separate (is that so bad?) Analogue to Digital USB converter for step one like the following for example.

 

https://www.av-connection.com/?PGr=8489

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

I think you need a separate (is that so bad?) Analogue to Digital USB converter for step one like the following for example.

 

https://www.av-connection.com/?PGr=8489

 

 

it isn't so bad, but it adds boxes and some complexity.

If the SHD could do what I wanted then I could simplify my system and remove an extra AD/DA conversion that I have to otherwise add to the chain

[sir sanders zingmore]

13 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

That may indeed be the deal breaker.

I've emailed MinDSP to ask them

 

 

 

Ok so MiniDSP have come back confirming that it can't be done (the USB output is post processing)

 

 

"The SHD will be able to output via the USB the 4ch from the post processing but not as you wish. 

 

Path will be: 

USB playback: 2ch from PC to USB of SHD
USB Recording: 4ch from SHD outputs back to PC. 

 

You can't do a loopback as you expect here through your Mac. It won't work I'm afraid. "

[Niktech]

The RME ADI-2 Pro has most of those functions. I don't know if it has the loop back you are after though. It might be in the manual:

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1186027/Rme-Audio-Adi-2-Pro.html.

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

11 minutes ago, Niktech said:

The RME ADI-2 Pro has most of those functions. I don't know if it has the loop back you are after though. It might be in the manual:

 

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1186027/Rme-Audio-Adi-2-Pro.html.

 

 

 

I will almost certainly be able to do loopback, but it can't do crossover (I need 4 analog outs)

[Niktech]

Ahh, I see.

[gibbo9000]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

it isn't so bad, but it adds boxes and some complexity.

If the SHD could do what I wanted then I could simplify my system and remove an extra AD/DA conversion that I have to otherwise add to the chain

A bummer that SHD or something else can't do it all in one.  Does it actually add an AD/DA conversion using a separate AD - it will be digital I/F between AD and SHD in?  If neatness is a concern there is a bit of space in the SHD box - it looks possible to put the guts of the av connection device or Shiit Jil in the SHD case . . but that is a different kind of complexity . . .  

[sir sanders zingmore]

I should probably spell out exactly the path that I have and that I'm trying to achieve

 

Noting that my speakers have a digital crossover (which is a separate box - not actually built in to the speakers) this is what I currently have

 

DAC into preamp/ TT into preamp >> preamp output into RME babyface for AD conversion >> into mac (for BACCH processing)>> back into RME babyface for DA conversion >> into digital crossover unit where it undergoes another AD/DA conversion before going to amps

 

So I have two AD/DA conversions: One in the RME babyface and another in the digital crossover unit

 

What I hoped to have was the following

 

1. Digital straight from Mac (already processed by BACCH) >> into MiniDSP SHD for crossover (still digital)>> converted to analog and out to amps (with volume control)

2. Analog from phono stage into MiniDSP SHD >>> convert to digital>> send to Mac for Bacch processing>> back to MinDSP (still digital)  for crossover >> converted to analog and out to amps

 

So it seems thet the SHD unit cannot do this. Is there any other unit that can?

Edited December 21, 2020 by sir sanders zingmore

[john.reekie]

Since you already have the Babyface, you can leave it there for ADC and send the audio output from BACCH to the SHD over USB. This pic is from their webpage:
 

[sir sanders zingmore]

56 minutes ago, john.reekie said:

Since you already have the Babyface, you can leave it there for ADC and send the audio output from BACCH to the SHD over USB. This pic is from their webpage:
 

 

Yes, that's probably what I'll end up doing.

I had hoped that I could reduce the box count (and recoup some $$) and do the A/D conversion in the same unit that does crossover and preamp duties

[kukynas]

14 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

So it seems thet the SHD unit cannot do this. Is there any other unit that can?

 

maybe some multichannel pro audio gear from RME (Fireface UC can do in/out simultaneously) and similar but definitely not dirac equipped and you would still need to check if it can do what you want it to do, on the other hand phono to usb converter like AD Box S2 Phono USB from Pro-ject would give you straight connection to PC on AD side and potentially eliminate your typical phono stage to AD converter combo + it's small so you can hide it somewhere and not even be aware of it, Phono Box DS2 USB has hi-res AD but it's 4-5x more expensive...I'm sure there are's lot more phono to USB converters...    

[john.reekie]

22 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Yes, that's probably what I'll end up doing.

I had hoped that I could reduce the box count (and recoup some $$) and do the A/D conversion in the same unit that does crossover and preamp duties

On the BACCH page it says "2-band and 3-band crossover network with 2nd and 4th order Linkwitz-Riley filters." So maybe you can just use that and feed 4 channels to the Babyface?

https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, john.reekie said:

On the BACCH page it says "2-band and 3-band crossover network with 2nd and 4th order Linkwitz-Riley filters." So maybe you can just use that and feed 4 channels to the Babyface?

https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-dsp/

 

Yes I’ve spoken to BACCH about this. The issue is getting 4 channels of analog out of the babyface. 
I think it can be done but it’s a bit of a kludge involving using the headphone outputs.

 

The missing piece is still the lack of remote control 

[andyr]

16 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

The missing piece is still the lack of remote control 

 

 

Here's a Sad Bastard who wants absoloootely everything!  

 

Andy

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

Here's a Sad Bastard who wants absoloootely everything!  

 

Andy

 

that’s me  

[Grizaudio]

Hi there,

 

I don't have this setup, but I think this could be possible?! 

 

I am currently considering the Focusrite Clarett for an active Speaker project, so I have researched this topic a little.  

 

If you use Audiolense https://juicehifi.com/ for speaker crossover and room correction, you could utilise a pro USB interface, to ingest your analog source, route to your TT Eq software, and then to a software DSP crossover.

Something like this: https://focusrite.com/en/usb-c-audio-interface/clarett-usb/clarett-8pre-usb

 

 

From my own research, USB interfaces sometimes offer basic levels of EQ, but lack high number crossover filters.

This is where programs like Audiolense, or Ekio could be used. Roon - if fully digital. 

Check out: http://www.lupisoft.com/ekio/

 

I believe the USB interface will ingest your analog feed, as required, send it to your PC for processing via the TT EQ software, the TT software can then send back to the Focusrite routing software. This may help: https://vb-audio.com/Cable/

 

From there you can output via something like Ekio, or Audiolense?

 

Alternatively, you may consider a pro DSP, which offers everything in one box, with bi directional USB:

https://www.qsc.com/systems/products/q-sys-ecosystem/products-peripherals-accessories/q-sys-cores/core-110f/

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

17 hours ago, Grizaudio said:

Hi there,

 

I don't have this setup, but I think this could be possible?! 

 

I am currently considering the Focusrite Clarett for an active Speaker project, so I have researched this topic a little.  

 

If you use Audiolense https://juicehifi.com/ for speaker crossover and room correction, you could utilise a pro USB interface, to ingest your analog source, route to your TT Eq software, and then to a software DSP crossover.

Something like this: https://focusrite.com/en/usb-c-audio-interface/clarett-usb/clarett-8pre-usb

 

 

From my own research, USB interfaces sometimes offer basic levels of EQ, but lack high number crossover filters.

This is where programs like Audiolense, or Ekio could be used. Roon - if fully digital. 

Check out: http://www.lupisoft.com/ekio/

 

I believe the USB interface will ingest your analog feed, as required, send it to your PC for processing via the TT EQ software, the TT software can then send back to the Focusrite routing software. This may help: https://vb-audio.com/Cable/

 

From there you can output via something like Ekio, or Audiolense?

 

Alternatively, you may consider a pro DSP, which offers everything in one box, with bi directional USB:

https://www.qsc.com/systems/products/q-sys-ecosystem/products-peripherals-accessories/q-sys-cores/core-110f/

 

 

If I end up doing the crossover in software (as it looks like I’ll have to), I’m good - I already have software that can handle it. 
It’s just that I’m trying to do it all in one box. 
 

regarding that qsc thing, I honestly don’t understand what it is. Can it do the “digital loop” I’m after? And can it do remote control source selection and volume control?

[Grizaudio]

One box will be difficult. 

IMO, a good USB interface like the Focusrite, or Okto Dac8 pro may be the go (with a PC doing your input and speaker processing). 

I suspect something like the Focusrite would be a better option, as these devices are bundled with routing software, for loop back. 

You could always grab a cheap Focusrite/Behringer USB interface to try the theory. 

.....

 

The QSC 110f is a pro DSP network device, sold through commercial/pro sound distributor networks. 

Essentially devices like the QSC core 110f, are commercial grade/Pro level devices allowing network, digital and analog signal routing & DSP.

 

I/O is typically available via network, USB, AES67, Dante and analog connections.

Some devices offer AES, and Spdif. 

 

The Qsys 110f uses Intel Chips for DSP, whereas many competitors still run Sharc based processing.

 

These DSP's enable custom integrators and pro audio contractors to route, ingest, output, control, equalise. delay, and manipulate audio (sometimes control/video) signals, manage and load FIR filters for speakers etc. Typical applications may include: 

- Commercial or Pro audio solutions

- Venue audio 

- Boardrooms and meeting rooms etc 

- Echo cancellation

- Network audio nodes (Inputs and outputs) 

- Format change, network routing  

etc 

 

The unit I used as an example is an open architecture DSP device, there are many examples of equivalent devices. 

Devices like this allow a very high level of customisation and signal design. 

Being commercial/pro audio devices, the have excellent sound quality. But they are Pricy.... 

 

You have many different brands offering devices.

Major brands include Biamp, QSC, Symetrix just to name a few.

https://www.qsc.com/systems/products/q-sys-ecosystem/

https://www.biamp.com/

https://www.symetrix.co/

 

In implementation, you must build a custom DSP/Site file inside the DSP to do whatever you need (Open architecture). 

QSC version: https://www.qsc.com/resources/software-and-firmware/q-sys-designer-software/

Symetrix software: https://www.symetrix.co/products/composer-software/

The QSC device appears to allow USB signal routing @ 16x16, 16/24 selectable bit depth, which is why I suggested it. 

I have personally not used the device for this application, but have used many in pro audio and commercial applications. 

 

DSP devices like this allow, control of I/O switching, routing, pre-set recall, etc typically via easily built and customisable HTML interfaces, or using third party control systems, or proprietary controllers. You have complete control of any control point you wish.

 

Some possibilities (Subject to model and brand): 

- Scalability, via network, AES67, AVB, Dante

- Input and output routing in line with physical and network IO

- Onboard equalisation (Typically lots of it) 

- AES67 and Dante protocols

- Direct digital transmission of input and output signals 

- Speaker management 

- FIR, IIR filters (Amount depends on DSP)

 

Maybe download the Qsys designer software and have a play. 

I hope this helps. 

 

Sometimes elegance in design and implementation is both expensive and hard to achieve.  

Let us know where you end up. 

Cheers 

[sir sanders zingmore]

15 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

Let us know where you end up. 

it looks like the in reality I have two choices and neither are “one-box”

- either have a separate AD box and do everything else in something like the SHD or,

- do the crossover in software and use something like an ADI-2 pro for AD and preamp duties. 

[Grizaudio]

41 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

- do the crossover in software and use something like an ADI-2 pro for AD and preamp duties. 

 

This is what I will be doing. 

But I'll probably look to bypass my RME Adi2 DAC FS, and use something like the Okto Dac8 pro, with its volume control, with AES in from a Pi2 AES. 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Grizaudio

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, Grizaudio said:

 

This is what I will be doing. 

But I'll probably look to bypass my RME Adi2 DAC FS, and use something like the Okto Dac8 pro, with its volume control, with AES in from a Pi2 AES. 

 

 

The RME ADI-2 DACC FS has volume control doesn't it? Why isn't it suited (unless you need a multichannel DAC)?

Edited December 28, 2020 by sir sanders zingmore