floorstanding speakers upgrade recommendation

[blackhole]

Looking for an upgrade for my main floorstanding speakers.

Current main floorstanding speakers Monitor Audio silver s8, AVR: Denon X3600h. Budget up to $5k RRP. Movie / music: 80/20. Medium room open to a larger open living area.

upgrade requirements / wish list

1. Get a bigger scale sound (mainly for movie). fill the room etc
2. Though music is not a higher priority, hoping this new one has some entry level hi-fi such as precise sound stage etc. 
3. No plan to upgrade the Denon AVR so this speaker should be relatively compatible with it and do not require higher end amp to achieve acceptable results.

 

Appreciate any recommendations in advance. 

 

Thanks.

 

[Bunno77]

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Edited December 19, 2020 by Bunno77
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[blackhole]

Bass performance for movie replay is not the concern at all. I have dual sub already (one of them PB3000).  MA silver s8 has enough high-mid range details. I just wish it has bigger scale sound to fill my room in movie replay. of course a bit more bass is always welcome.

Edited December 19, 2020 by blackhole

[Mr_Gadget]

I'm curious if you have your fronts set to small or large on the AVR.

[Snoopy8]

2 hours ago, blackhole said:

Looking for an upgrade for my main floorstanding speakers.

Current main floorstanding speakers Monitor Audio silver s8, AVR: Denon X3600h. Budget up to $5k RRP. Movie / music: 80/20. Medium room open to a larger open living area.

upgrade requirements / wish list

1. Get a bigger scale sound (mainly for movie). fill the room etc
2. Though music is not a higher priority, hoping this new one has some entry level hi-fi such as precise sound stage etc. 
3. No plan to upgrade the Denon AVR so this speaker should be relatively compatible with it and do not require higher end amp to achieve acceptable results.

 to the forum...

 

I suspect that upgrading the main speakers will not have as big an impact on the sound of movies as you would like.  I used to run high end active speakers for my front 3 speakers but now use small speakers.  Movie sound can be improved by increasing number of the speakers (Atmos?) and optimising their placement.  Can you please provide a sketch of your room as well as where the speakers are and where you sit.

 

Movie sound can also be improved by room correction software.  Suggest you check that you have run Audyssey properly and tweak it as required. Maybe boost the left and right speakers after the Audyssey run?  

 

Playing music on an AVR is always a compromise.  Music can be improved by using Dirac Live or Anthem Room Correction, where you can get a more precise sound stage.  Unfortunately, Audyssey is not good with music and you have stated that you do want to change the AVR.

[blackhole]

50 minutes ago, Mr_Gadget said:

I'm curious if you have your fronts set to small or large on the AVR.

set to small for all speakers on my ATMOS set up. 

[blackhole]

35 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

 to the forum...

 

I suspect that upgrading the main speakers will not have as big an impact on the sound of movies as you would like.  I used to run high end active speakers for my front 3 speakers but now use small speakers.  Movie sound can be improved by increasing number of the speakers (Atmos?) and optimising their placement.  Can you please provide a sketch of your room as well as where the speakers are and where you sit.

 

Movie sound can also be improved by room correction software.  Suggest you check that you have run Audyssey properly and tweak it as required. Maybe boost the left and right speakers after the Audyssey run?  

 

Playing music on an AVR is always a compromise.  Music can be improved by using Dirac Live or Anthem Room Correction, where you can get a more precise sound stage.  Unfortunately, Audyssey is not good with music and you have stated that you do want to change the AVR.

I used REW and then Audyssey. But that mainly is for the my subs set up. I can always raise the level for the main but louder sound is not equal to big sound. What I am after is a bigger scale sound. The s8 is a slim litter floorstander. I guess there is always a physical limit to it. right?

Edited December 19, 2020 by blackhole

[Snoopy8]

1 minute ago, blackhole said:

I used REW and then Audyssey. But that mainly is for the my subs set up. What I am after is a bigger scale sound. The s8 is a slim litter floorstander. I guess there is always a physical limit to it. right?

Not sure why you are using both REW and Audyssey?  Audyssey (what version?) will set up  the bass as well as doing room correction.  What is REW giving you that Audyssey cannot?     

 

I am using small Monitor Audio Apex A10 speakers in my large open plan family room (5m x 10m). Have an Arcam AVR550 running Dirac LIve in a 5.2 arrangement (Atmos one day...).  No problems getting a large scale sound. 

 

The room is the biggest determinant of the sound.  Doing room treatment and careful placement of speakers and listening position helps.  In the absence of room treatment, good room correction software will improve things.  

[genkifd]

MA needs power to sound its best.

 

get a nice sub and your HT will transform also get a Integrated amp with HT bypass for music. your system will be transformed in regards to audio.

[hopefullguy]

think a bit more detail is required about room sizing and speaker placement vs tv? seating position.

 

seriously seem to have the sub covered, the fronts in HT lucky to do 20% of the work so what centre are you running?

 

most manufacturers do not "match fronts with centre correctly anyway.

[blackhole]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

Not sure why you are using both REW and Audyssey?  Audyssey (what version?) will set up  the bass as well as doing room correction.  What is REW giving you that Audyssey cannot?     

 

I am using small Monitor Audio Apex A10 speakers in my large open plan family room (5m x 10m). Have an Arcam AVR550 running Dirac LIve in a 5.2 arrangement (Atmos one day...).  No problems getting a large scale sound. 

 

The room is the biggest determinant of the sound.  Doing room treatment and careful placement of speakers and listening position helps.  In the absence of room treatment, good room correction software will improve things.  

I used REW only to find out the good placements for the subs. then run Audyssey XT32 that comes with the X3600h for room EQ. 

 

seems all every advice so far focuses on room correction etc. I get that it helps to maximize what you already have. And I have done a lot of more than average HT users. For example, my previous sub has improved a lot by using REW finding the best placement but still can not hold a candle to the new PB3000 sub. With 40% larger MDF and bigger and more advanced driver, it simply just goes deeper and louder.   there is only so much you can do to improve by applying room correction. Say a $500 bookshelf would never sound in bigger scale than a say a $5k floorstander. 

[rantan]

4 hours ago, blackhole said:

Bass performance for movie replay is not the concern at all. I have dual sub already (one of them PB3000).  MA silver s8 has enough high-mid range details. I just wish it has bigger scale sound to fill my room in movie replay. of course a bit more bass is always welcome.

 

You really shouldn't have a problem getting a "large scale " sound from your Silver 8.  I have seen and heard them used in rooms up to 12x10 metres on a high quality amplifier.

 

 

In your situation I would say that amplification is lacking and a decent integrated amplifier with HT bypass would work a treat. The Silver eight are quite efficient but they will really give you exactly what you want with a premium two channel amp. You will be astounded by the difference.

Edited December 19, 2020 by rantan

[blackhole]

8 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

You really shouldn't have a problem getting a "large scale " sound from your Silver 8.  I have seen and head them used in rooms up to 12x10 metres on  the end of a high quality amp

 

 

In your situation I would say that amplification is lacking and a decent integrated amplifier with HT bypass would work a treat. The Silver eight are quite efficient but they will really give you exactly what you want with a premium two channel amp. You will be astounded by the difference.

Silver 8 is later generation than my silver s8 I guess. definitely not the same model. mine was purchased back in early 2000. Just look at the slim body, I am sure there will be speakers that scale bigger.

Edited December 19, 2020 by blackhole

[rantan]

Just now, blackhole said:

Silver 8 is later generation than my silver s8 I guess. definitely not the same model. mine was purchased back in early 2000.

 

OK apologies for that . I wasn't entirely clear but my comment still stands. All MA speakers work fine with lower power but really respond to changes in amplification further up the quality and power scale.

[Snoopy8]

1 minute ago, blackhole said:

I used REW only to find out the good placements for the subs. then run Audyssey XT32 that comes with the X3600h for room EQ. 

 

seems all every advice so far focuses on room correction etc. I get that it helps to maximize what you already have. And I have done a lot of more than average HT users. For example, my previous sub has improved a lot by using REW finding the best placement but still can not hold a candle to the new PB3000 sub. With 40% larger MDF and bigger and more advanced driver, it simply just goes deeper and louder.   there is only so much you can do to improve by applying room correction. Say a $500 bookshelf would never sound in bigger scale than a say a $5k floorstander. 

Understand how you are using REW. Incidentally, I use REW to integrate my 2 subs  with a program called MSO (see my About Me) before running Dirac Live.

 

I am not suggesting size does NOT matter. It is especially important for subs.  But if my little Apex A10s can fill my room and your much larger Silver S8s can't, something is wrong!  My initial reaction was fix the room physically and with software.  It could also be amplification as @rantan suggested.

 

However, if you are set on getting large speakers as your solution, I will leave you to it....

[blackhole]

@Snoopy8 s8 is not that bad, volume is also not the issue. I don't typically push to high volume. But loud sound <> big sound. Say you have a bookshelf that is very efficient and you run it with a good amp at the very high volume without distortion. But say if a piano sound coming out from it will never sound like a bigger piano than the one from a larger floorstander even running in a medium volume. That is the difference between scale and volume. 

I guess  there is always a room for improvement. Especially for the s8, it is no where near high end anyway.

Edited December 19, 2020 by blackhole

[Digital]

 

Monitor Audio are good speakers before going upgrade path can you try upgrade your amplification and  speaker cables to bring the true potential.

 

In my case, when I started using Monitor Audio Silver 8 floorstanding, It was not so impressive compared to my Klipsch RP260F (Klipsch have great impact, dynamics which are special in it's own way)

 

But, based on feed back from @rantan and other fellow SNA members. I upgraded my interconnects, speaker cables . All this upgrade items are entry level items.

 

 

Monitor Audio floorstanders are balanced speakers, in my setup it does not require a subwoofer. 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Drunken Monk
Update

[Satanica]

A couple of options that come to mind.

 

https://www.krix.com.au/megaphonix-in-room/

 

http://www.redspade.com.au/audio/HE2.php

[Snoopy8]

1 minute ago, blackhole said:

@Snoopy8 s8 is not that bad, volume is also not the issue. I don't typically push to high volume. But loud sound <> big sound. Say you have a bookshelf that is very efficient and you run it with a good amp at the very high volume without distortion. But say if a piano sound coming out from it will never sound like a bigger piano than the one from a larger floorstander even running in a medium volume. That is the difference between scale and volume. 

I guess  there is always a room for improvement. Especially for the s8, it is no where near high end anyway.

With stereo, you can improve the sound stage and scale with better speakers, DAC, streamer, amplification, interconnects etc..  With home theatre, the sound stage is different, very much dependent on how it is recorded and decoded by the AVR. Yes, size of speakers, quality and power of AVR, interconnects have a role, but I would argue a lesser role. Let me use a source that you can download from

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

Magnificat on my stereo setup has a wide, tall and deep sound stage and you can hear the scale.   However, in my HT setup, the sound stage is different, with the organ and piano is at the back  (not for traditionalist!) and you can get a sense of the church where it was recorded.  I get a sense of scale with both recordings.

 

With North Country II, which is predominantly a piano piece,  I prefer the stereo version rather than the HT version mainly because the piano is more life like in stereo.  Despite the SQ differences,  I still get a sense of scale with the HT setup.

 

And I do not play at volume either.  Quite a few SNA members have commented on how low my volume settings are!  I have used the classical pieces here because it can be downloaded easily but I can get a sense of scale with rock concerts, jazz etc with both my stereo and HT setups.  

 

Not sure what else I can say to convince you to look at the physical room, room correction software and amplification (Arcam AVR 550 has excellent power for an AVR) before going down the path of getting a bigger speaker...

 

 

[stereo coffee]

To have your sound stage correct for all sources, using two speakers, ...surely that is the aim ? 

 

43 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

With stereo, you can improve the sound stage and scale with better speakers, DAC, streamer, amplification, interconnects etc..  With home theatre, the sound stage is different, very much dependent on how it is recorded and decoded by the AVR. Yes, size of speakers, quality and power of AVR, interconnects have a role, but I would argue a lesser role. Let me use a source that you can download from

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

Magnificat on my stereo setup has a wide, tall and deep sound stage and you can hear the scale.   However, in my HT setup, the sound stage is different, with the organ and piano is at the back  (not for traditionalist!) and you can get a sense of the church where it was recorded.  I get a sense of scale with both recordings.

 

With North Country II, which is predominantly a piano piece,  I prefer the stereo version rather than the HT version mainly because the piano is more life like in stereo.  Despite the SQ differences,  I still get a sense of scale with the HT setup.

 

And I do not play at volume either.  Quite a few SNA members have commented on how low my volume settings are!  I have used the classical pieces here because it can be downloaded easily but I can get a sense of scale with rock concerts, jazz etc with both my stereo and HT setups.  

 

Not sure what else I can say to convince you to look at the physical room, room correction software and amplification (Arcam AVR 550 has excellent power for an AVR) before going down the path of getting a bigger speaker...

 

 

 

[Janjuggler]

Hi,

 

I think you may need to look at supplying more power to your front speakers, perhaps a a power amp of 100+W/channel for the Monitor Audio Silver 8, as the amp has 600Watts max, according to the specs sheet, and all power outputs are to one speaker only, not all speakers driven.

 

http://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/AU/Denon_AVR-X3600H.pdf

 

An amp like this in the Classifieds would be the sort of thing to look for:

 

JJ

[blackhole]

32 minutes ago, Janjuc said:

Hi,

 

I think you may need to look at supplying more power to your front speakers, perhaps a a power amp of 100+W/channel for the Monitor Audio Silver 8, as the amp has 600Watts max, according to the specs sheet, and all power outputs are to one speaker only, not all speakers driven.

 

http://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/AU/Denon_AVR-X3600H.pdf

 

An amp like this in the Classifieds would be the sort of thing to look for:

 

JJ

@Janjuc

I agree a better amp will help but the biggest improvement is always from the speaker itself. E.G for an 8" sub increase the amp from 300w to say 1200w will certainly be better but the improvement will never beat the one from upgrading the sub from 8" to 12". And I am very sure the power upgrade to the 8" will be a waste of time and money in my room. At the end of day, 8" is still an 8". that is only that much you can do with an 8". Hope this makes sense.

 

X3600H has 105w per channel for two channel mode. It is not that short of power by any standard. And I already say I have no intention of changing the amp. I think the money is better spent on the speakers.

 

Also do not quite understand why everyone is so against upgrading speakers. It is not like upgrading amp can save some money? Common sense tells me the speakers make the largest difference in the HiFi world.

Edited December 19, 2020 by blackhole

[Peter_F]

20 minutes ago, blackhole said:

...but the biggest improvement is always from the speaker itself.

Not if the amplification isn't up to the task, and the better the speaker the more it will expose an incapable or unsuitable amplifier.  

[Snoopy8]

16 hours ago, blackhole said:

Also do not quite understand why everyone is so against upgrading speakers. It is not like upgrading amp can save some money? Common sense tells me the speakers make the largest difference in the HiFi world.

Not against upgrading speakers, at all.  But you have chosen to ignore the room, placement, room treatment, amplification etc. , all of which have a significant impact on sound quality.  At the end of the day, it is your system and your money to spend as you please...

[rantan]

2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Not against upgrading speakers, at all.  But you have chosen to ignore the room, placement, room treatment, amplification etc. , all of which have a significant impact on sound quality.  At the end of the day, it is your system and your money to spend as you please.

 

Exactly.

All anyone else can do is to assist you by giving a informed opinion based on experience and ownership.

 

If it is your  judgement that the greatest benefit can be gained by replacing the speakers then it would be well worth visiting as many audio shops as you can to audition those speakers which will deliver the scale you seek. Opinions on  speakers will almost always be subjective and many of them will differ.

Good luck with it.