Fit a pre amp into my setup

[al2813]

12 hours ago, Audionerd said:

The logical approach is to first conclusively answer the question of whether to pursue a preamp with separate DAC, or a DAC that can double as a preamp.

In your likely price range, this is a no-brainer. The cost of a preamp, extra pair of interconnects and power lead good enough to satisfy you will be prohibitive unless you're lucky enough to find some give-aways! Provided that the DAC interfaces well with your power amp and has appropriate inputs, the more direct signal path will also be a tremendous advantage for information transfer.

So your two remaining questions should be which DACs with variable output will work well with the Hypex, and do you need analogue inputs.

While we're all aware that many DACs are capable of operating as digital-only preamps, those which also allow the connection of analogue source are generally much more expensive.

There is one exception with which I'm familiar, the NuPrime DAC 90, which is a steal at RRP of $1199. At a MUCH higher price point, I've had good results with an ex top model Bel Canto DAC3.7, Vitus Audio RD-100 and DCS Elgar.

Amongst the plethora of digital preamp/DACs, I've found Audiolab and cheaper Bel Cantos to sound exceptional for the price, especially when secondhand.

On the valve front, an Aesthetix Pandora DAC worked well as a digital-only preamp with one power amp but not another. It's unsurprising that tube DACs are likely to be more problematic in some situations.

I'm in the fortunate position of being able to compare various DACs in conjunction with power amps, to determine which sound "right" in actual listening tests. When the interface isn't suitable, it's normally very obvious.

My advice is to focus your research on which variable output DACs will interface appropriately with your specific power amp, based on the listening tests of others, if you can't hear it for yourself. Don't get too hung-up on Class D versus AB "accuracy" and specifications. Biased opinions about what can or can't work often arise from those with a bit of technical knowledge but not a lot of listening experience under a variety of conditions. 

 

 

The key reason I am thinking of going the preamp route is that I don't want to limit myself to a DAC that has a pre amp stage. I am seeing a lot of interesting DACs that cannot act as pre amp. 

 

[al2813]

11 hours ago, MattyW said:

The DACGEAR LDR Pre Mk2 would be local to you I believe. Wonderful product. Courste you want better than a Topping DAC to go with something that transparent...... Probably something with tubes to help hide the sigma delta DAC jaggies 

 

An iFi iTube might be interesting though I'm sure there's better choices out there....

 

DACGEAR LDR Pre Mk2  is made by a fellow countryman in Belgium. I already spotted him on diyaudio.com

I contacted him, and he's able to lend me stuff for a free test so thanks for pointing me in that direction!!

 

[MattyW]

2 hours ago, al2813 said:

 

DACGEAR LDR Pre Mk2  is made by a fellow countryman in Belgium. I already spotted him on diyaudio.com

I contacted him, and he's able to lend me stuff for a free test so thanks for pointing me in that direction!!

 

I'm running one myself.  It's an end game component. Mine replaced a Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL 3. 

[Irek]

On 20/11/2020 at 5:36 PM, aussievintage said:

 

For heaven's sake why?  If you aren't happy with the accuracy of class D, then at least aim for something musical, like a SET  

Why people want to use tube preamp with class D power amps? 

If accuracy was the main goal in HiFi we would all be using professional studio monitors.

[MattyW]

29 minutes ago, Irek said:

Why people want to use tube preamp with class D power amps? 

If accuracy was the main goal in HiFi we would all be using professional studio monitors.

 

Might have something to do with speaker choice. Class D usually gives you more power on tap, allowing it to be paired with less efficient speakers.

 

I prefer the higher efficiency speakers paired with lower wattage single ended tubes amps though with a solid state amp powering the woofers. Best of both worlds 

 

I'm actually thinking about changing my class AB power amp on the woofers for a class D power amp..... It's ntohing to do with amp performance though rather the ability to apply a low pass filter with the Samson SXD5000 vs the Behringer KM750 I currently use. I'd go Crown but the price is just so exxy 

Edited November 26, 2020 by MattyW

[Mikahakk1]

On 27/11/2020 at 7:51 AM, MattyW said:

 

Might have something to do with speaker choice. Class D usually gives you more power on tap, allowing it to be paired with less efficient speakers.

 

I prefer the higher efficiency speakers paired with lower wattage single ended tubes amps though with a solid state amp powering the woofers. Best of both worlds 

 

I'm actually thinking about changing my class AB power amp on the woofers for a class D power amp..... It's ntohing to do with amp performance though rather the ability to apply a low pass filter with the Samson SXD5000 vs the Behringer KM750 I currently use. I'd go Crown but the price is just so exxy 

Hi MattyW, how much does the LDR improve over the volume resistor relays (with tube) in your opinion?

[MattyW]

28 minutes ago, Mikahakk1 said:

Hi MattyW, how much does the LDR improve over the volume resistor relays (with tube) in your opinion?

 

Fuller sounding,  more detailed, better sound stage.... Basically it's just letting more of the original signal through 

[al2813]

On 28/11/2020 at 4:00 AM, MattyW said:

 

Fuller sounding,  more detailed, better sound stage.... Basically it's just letting more of the original signal through 

 

I received today the loaner. An amazing piece of kit. The jump in sound quality is no less then spectacular in my setup, plus I finally get that meaty sound I was missing in a lot of songs. Now to understand if I keep the D90, or go something else. 

[MattyW]

5 hours ago, al2813 said:

 

I received today the loaner. An amazing piece of kit. The jump in sound quality is no less then spectacular in my setup, plus I finally get that meaty sound I was missing in a lot of songs. Now to understand if I keep the D90, or go something else. 

 

You're right about the DACGEAR LDR Pre Mk2.  Totally transparent and it will continue to improve as the rest of your sound chain improves. A reference level piece of kit.

 

I changed to a black face plate and solid aluminum silver knobs on mine + added some silver aluminum feet. It really improved the aesthetics of the unit, in my eyes at least.

 

 

DACGEAR have a DAC that a few of us have been curious about for a while.  If you were to review a loaner that would prove interesting for a few of us.

 

Otherwise I know the Abbas Audio DAC's out of the Ukraine are nothing short of spectacular, likewise this TDA1540D is an incredible value considering its performance. Forgoes features for outright sound quality as the Abbas DAC's do. Not quite at their level though it's also half the price: 

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TDA1540-DAC-enhanced-version-of-the-whole-machine-/274387268158?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

Edited November 29, 2020 by MattyW

[al2813]

8 minutes ago, MattyW said:

 

DACGEAR have a DAC that a few of us have been curious about for a while.  If you were to review a loaner that would prove interesting for a few of us.

it’s Sunday evening here in Belgium. I am reviewing the loaner right now. For this price this is a killer. Both the XR and my Topping D90 are connected to the LDR. I am struggling to separate them. The XR DAC has a mini USB port (and not Micro USB) which is annoying. For now I am using a cheap USB cable to connect it to my JCAT USB 1.1 card on my source audio PC (Good thing the JCAT has two USB ports so I can AB with the Topping connected on the second port). The same connection also powers the DAC. The USB mini interface is limited to 16/48 so Roon is downsampling a lot of the files (I play a lot of Qobuz hi res albums and some DSD albums). Still as I say I am barely able to separate the Topping that costs 3 times more. This is ridiculous. The DAC has also an SPDIF port which can do 24/192 but it is a Toslink so I cannot test it as I’m second card on the PC (a WaveIO) is outputting via. SPDIF Coax port. I would have loved to test this DAC on SPDIF and powering it from an external power supply. I think this is tremendous stuff at this price. 
 

 

[al2813]

32 minutes ago, MattyW said:

 

You're right about the DACGEAR LDR Pre Mk2.  Totally transparent and it will continue to improve as the rest of your sound chain improves. A reference level piece of kit.

 

I changed to a black face plate and solid aluminum silver knobs on mine + added some silver aluminum feet. It really improved the aesthetics of the unit, in my eyes at least.

 

 

DACGEAR have a DAC that a few of us have been curious about for a while.  If you were to review a loaner that would prove interesting for a few of us.

 

Otherwise I know the Abbas Audio DAC's out of the Ukraine are nothing short of spectacular, likewise this TDA1540D is an incredible value considering its performance. Forgoes features for outright sound quality as the Abbas DAC's do. Not quite at their level though it's also half the price: 

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TDA1540-DAC-enhanced-version-of-the-whole-machine-/274387268158?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

I am also debating on the more expensive LDR Pre (SE) variant which has a much nicer black box and a as slightly better power supply. Neb tells me that he doesn’t think you get a big difference in sound but I like the nicer box and bigger screen. 
 

As to the DAC I read today your posts on the TDA1540 DAC and the Abbas Audio. Dunno. Too much cash to spend at once......

 

 

[MattyW]

On 30/11/2020 at 6:59 AM, al2813 said:

it’s Sunday evening here in Belgium. I am reviewing the loaner right now. For this price this is a killer. Both the XR and my Topping D90 are connected to the LDR. I am struggling to separate them. The XR DAC has a mini USB port (and not Micro USB) which is annoying. For now I am using a cheap USB cable to connect it to my JCAT USB 1.1 card on my source audio PC (Good thing the JCAT has two USB ports so I can AB with the Topping connected on the second port). The same connection also powers the DAC. The USB mini interface is limited to 16/48 so Roon is downsampling a lot of the files (I play a lot of Qobuz hi res albums and some DSD albums). Still as I say I am barely able to separate the Topping that costs 3 times more. This is ridiculous. The DAC has also an SPDIF port which can do 24/192 but it is a Toslink so I cannot test it as I’m second card on the PC (a WaveIO) is outputting via. SPDIF Coax port. I would have loved to test this DAC on SPDIF and powering it from an external power supply. I think this is tremendous stuff at this price. 
 

 

 

Yeah, my own listening tests have shown I hear no difference between hi res playback and 16 bit 44 khz CD quality playback with a variety of DAC's, hence why I ended up tracking down the best sounding DAC's I can afford for 16 bit 44 khz playback, or 14 bit in the case of the TDA1540D based DAC. That said this goes against mainstream beliefs.... I think of it as the brainwashing of the masses, marketing ever higher specs and lower noise floors which are inaudible to the human ear. Still, I better not say too much as there's two opposing camps on this topics and I don't really feel like debating the merits of each approach.

 

On 30/11/2020 at 7:16 AM, al2813 said:

I am also debating on the more expensive LDR Pre (SE) variant which has a much nicer black box and a as slightly better power supply. Neb tells me that he doesn’t think you get a big difference in sound but I like the nicer box and bigger screen. 
 

As to the DAC I read today your posts on the TDA1540 DAC and the Abbas Audio. Dunno. Too much cash to spend at once......

 

 

 

Yeah, would be interesting to see if there's an audible difference. For me that's the only thing that matters. No shame in not going down the same path I have with respect to the DAC. there's many paths to audio nirvana and who's to say which is better, or even if the DAC's I run would be to your preference. That said, I suspect they would 

Edited January 5, 2021 by MattyW
Typo

[al2813]

4 minutes ago, MattyW said:

 

Yeah, my own listening tests have shown I hear no difference between hi res playback and 16 bit 44 khz CD quality playback with a variety of DAC's, hence why I ended up tracking down the best sounding DAC's I can afford for 16 bit 44 khz playback, or 14 bit in the case of the TDA1540D based DAC. That said this goes against mainstream beliefs.... I think of it as the brainwashing of the masses, marketing ever higher specs and lower noise floors which are inaudible to the human ear. Still, I better not say too much as there's too opposing camps on this topics and I don't really feel like debating the merits of each approach.

 

 

Yeah, would be interesting to see if there's an audible difference. For me that's the only thing that matters. No shame in not going down the same path I have with respect to the DAC. there's many paths to audio nirvana and who's to say which is better, or even if the DAC's I run would be to your preference. That said, I suspect they would 

complex thing. I do have DSD versions of albums that sound better than any PCM versions I could get my hand on. I am a bit on the fence on this one. Having said that the DAC XR played them very nicely downsampled and I could not hear almost any difference with the Topping playing them natively. That said my 52 years old ears did lose  sharpness - especially on the higher frequencies. 

[MattyW]

21 minutes ago, al2813 said:

complex thing. I do have DSD versions of albums that sound better than any PCM versions I could get my hand on. I am a bit on the fence on this one. Having said that the DAC XR played them very nicely downsampled and I could not hear almost any difference with the Topping playing them natively. That said my 52 years old ears did lose  sharpness - especially on the higher frequencies. 

 

Try playing back through these DAC's downsampled. I'm willing to bet that the difference is in the mix itself.... Basically they put more time and effort into mixing the SACD versions of the album.

 

The differences you're hearing between the Topping and the XR, are likely just differences in the sound signature of each DAC. Just not worth worrying about. It's like rolling different digital cables. The differences are there, however it's so small it's in the realm of "did I hear that or, or just imagine a difference". When you're unsure it's hard to justify the big bucks. Same deal with power cables for me.

 

A better test, would be to manually set downsampling on the Topping and see if you can hear a difference. I suspect you will hear the DSD versions which previously sounded better, still sound better. I.e. The difference is in the mix. That was the conclusion I arrived at anyway.

 

I'm not looking forward to the day I lose the highs in my hearing.... Can still hear up to 17600Hz presently which isn't too shabby. Means with my DIY speakers I've invested quite heavily (for me) when it came to the quality of the caps for my tweeters. Duelund CAST Cu-Sn don't come cheap, even when purchased at half price. For me it was worth the expense, though the only reason I pulled the trigger on the Duelunds was that they were half price, otherwise I'd have stuck with my Duelund RS-Cu + Arizona Blue Cactus cap combo in the tweeters forever. I just knew that running a single 2.2uf cap per speaker would be more coherence than running two caps though.

 

Sales are the way of making us spend money we don't want to let go of  Still, in the end I'm glad I did though I really couldn't blame anyone if they decided I was nuts spending $700 AUD for on a pair of caps. To me, they're caps that sound like they're not there at all. Precisely what I was after 

Edited November 29, 2020 by MattyW

[al2813]

Quick update on the little XR+ DAC. After ABing it with my Topping D90 for three straight evenings, I’m sold on it. Love the sound and for this price I can sell my Topping and fund a good part of the combined  purchase. It’s that good. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by al2813

[aussievintage]

44 minutes ago, al2813 said:

Quick update on the little XR+ DAC. After ABing it with my Topping D90 for three straight evenings, I’m sold on it. Love the sound and for this price I can sell my Topping and fund a good part of the combined  purchase. It’s that good. 

 

 

I was just reading on their web page

 

Quote

This only confirms what article above states, based on scientific facts and extensive unbiased tests. I believe that audible differences between high res and red book could appear for various reasons, like different masters, intermodulation distortion induced harmonics, biased tests, etc.

The idea behind this DAC is simply this: to reproduce 16bit/44KHz material impeccably and leave in the dust those who waste their efforts in pursuing ridiculous bit depths and ultrasonic frequencies.

 

However the linked article has gone 404.  Anyone know of a different link?

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, al2813 said:

Quick update on the little XR+ DAC. After ABing it with my Topping D90 for three straight evenings, I’m sold on it. Love the sound and for this price I can sell my Topping and fund a good part of the combined  purchase. It’s that good. 

 

Awesome news.  Congratulations on your purchase.  It should be a very nice improvement in your system for a very modest increase in cost.

[al2813]

18 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

I was just reading on their web page

 

 

However the linked article has gone 404.  Anyone know of a different link?

 

Interesting stuff. This is outside the scope of the original post, but I have been putting some thinking around it. Last night I also did some testing. The below is not empirical and solely based on my own hearing. Also (and VERY IMPORTANT) last night's little test was not blind. 

The starting point is that the XR+ DAC sounded better to my ears than the Topping D90 even when playing hi res music. While the D90 kept the original bit rate (and I even upsampled in Roon to DSD 256), the little DAC sounded as detailed (and in worse case a tad less detailed) yet more open, spacious and 3D then the D90 while downsampled to redbook by Roon. Since last night (when I decided to buy the DAC) I am now using the XR+ as my default DAC. The Topping will probably be back in its box this weeked.

This is important to state since I started this AB testing being biased against the XR+. I didn't think it could sound better then the Topping that has raving reviews, supports the higher sample rate of a lot of the music Iisten to, has a linear power supply and costs 3 times more. 

 

So last night I did a different test. One of the issues in Qobuz is that in many cases when an album is available in a redbook and a hi res version, the hi res version is also a newer and almost always a better master. This means you cannot AB both versions since they are not the same. To touch on a point raised many times a better master will sound better than a worse one regardless of the bit rate. Last night I saw that the Eagles' One of These Nights album is the same master (2013 master) for the redbook and the hi res versions. I played both and even downsampled by the XR+ the hi res version sounded slightly better to me. I think there was a bit more space between the instruments and the vocals. Now the difference is not huge, but I felt it was there. As this was not blind (I will try a blind one when I get the time. Need to pull my son away from his video games and ask him to help me.....), It is worth what it's worth. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by al2813

[lenticularis]

On 02/12/2020 at 8:33 AM, aussievintage said:

 

 

I was just reading on their web page

 

 

However the linked article has gone 404.  Anyone know of a different link?

https://sites.google.com/view/dacgear/xr-dac

 

woops - the linked article form there is still ‘404’

Edited December 2, 2020 by lenticularis

[muon*]

11 hours ago, lenticularis said:

https://sites.google.com/view/dacgear/xr-dac

 

woops - the linked article form there is still ‘404’

works for me.

 

I opened in a new tab no problem.

[aussievintage]

5 minutes ago, muon* said:

works for me.

 

I opened in a new tab no problem.

 

 

Not that - I was talking about the linked article within it  (

• 24/192 Music Downloads...and why they make no sense
• )

[MattyW]

9 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

Not that - I was talking about the linked article within it  (

• 24/192 Music Downloads...and why they make no sense
• )

 

https://www.osnews.com/story/28110/24192-music-downloads-and-why-they-make-no-sense/

 

EDIT: No, I Googled it and every link seems to be broken to that. I'm guessing the article or site no longer exists

Edited December 3, 2020 by MattyW

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, MattyW said:

 

https://www.osnews.com/story/28110/24192-music-downloads-and-why-they-make-no-sense/

 

 

And that's just a posted paragraph with a link to the same 404 page  

[muon*]

5 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

Not that - I was talking about the linked article within it  (

• 24/192 Music Downloads...and why they make no sense
• )

They all look the same to me

[Lars V]

On 20/11/2020 at 12:47 AM, Irek said:

While class D power amps are very attractive (price/power ratio), finding proper  preamplifier is a nightmare. Once you find a good preamp , you'll realise it cost the same as integrated. I would be looking at preamps that are design to work with class D power amps.   

@Irek what pre amp would match the XTZ Edge and NAD C298 in your opinion?

 

I have the XTZ laying around, currently enjoying the Musical Paradise M5si, but have the new NAD C298 on loan just now (only for 2 weeks). The C298 is super detailed and controls the bass very well. However, it gives me listening fatigue the first session quickly (TIDAL MQA), where as with the M5si I have none of that. Just ordered a better DAC SMSL SU-9(currently Topping E30, since Musical Paradise MP-D1 MK4 is not coming out till next year). Will test the C298 against the XTZ this weekend. But since I like the bit warmer less glary fatiguing sound like I have with the M5si (and before with the XTZ Edge and the Schiit Saga+), I am again considering the MP 701 MK2. But first I have to see if the NAD C298 is a lot better than the XTZ Edge or if the M5si plus the SU-9 DAC brings out a bit more detail and bass control, like the C298 does. 

 

So what other preamp would work well with a class D (Ice module and new NAD) besides the MP 701 ? I would love to keep the bass control and details from the NAD C298, but just round off the glare (or whatever it is that is annoying me ears after 30 min).

 

Furthermore I have good signal and power control so that should not be the issue (IFI Power Station, Silent Angle Bonn N8, Audioquest Forest CAT7 between router and Silent Angle and BlueSound Node 2i. And Supra Ply 3.4/S speaker cables (grounded shield). So I believe the base is good, now just finding the right matching set up. Oh btw, Quad Z2 speakers (fabulous)