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Hi

 

I recently bought a Rega P2 TT, and have it connected to a NAD PP 2e which in turn is hooked up to a Denon AVR-3805 which are driving a pair of B&W 603 Series 2.

 

In order to get any listenable volume, i have to crank it all the way up to -17.0dB, and on some quieter records all the way to -4.0dB, so my amp is running full tilt all the time.

 

I've been eyeing upgrading to a Pro-Ject Phono Box V USB as it seems to have a dial to control the pre-amp output. Would there be any other recommendations out there? Hoping to "upgrade" the phono stage while im at it.

 

Thanks in advance!

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Thats odd.  I would not have thought the carts output would be that low and the AVR should not need to struggle either.

Is there any setting in the AVR that you can adjust?

Might be a silly question but you haven't got the phono stage connected into the phono inputs on the AVR?  Also make sure the PP2E switch on the back is set to MM and not MC?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

Thats odd.  I would not have thought the carts output would be that low and the AVR should not need to struggle either.

Is there any setting in the AVR that you can adjust?

Might be a silly question but you haven't got the phono stage connected into the phono inputs on the AVR?  Also make sure the PP2E switch on the back is set to MM and not MC?

 

 

 

Its connected to the 'CD' input not the phono. 

 

Checked all the pp2e's settings.. nothing different to usual. mm selected and input/output properly plugged in.

 

I've also bypassed the pp2e and connected it direct to the amp. Its even quieter.

 

When I switch to a different source, its normal volume....

 

Edit: had a fiddle around in the avr itself.. its on pure direct mode to bypass any amp processing... I didn't think that would affect the volume

Edited by TK31
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Ive recently had to deal with a question similar to this... I dont know exactly what your preamp output (in mv or volts) is via the RCAs or what your power amps' input sensitivity is.... But ive recently learned that they need to matched quite closely to get the right volume output from your power amp.

I also have a P2 recently purchased. (go and get the upgrade pack for $150... the Bias2 cart is immensely better!... the Carbon seems great... until ya put a Bias2 on it!) 

I also know many of the higher end kinda guys would simply pooh both carts... but f'ing trust me! Be sure to align it as best you can using the supplied protractor and your ears... It took me about 10 mins to be sure output (left and right) was similar at the beginning of a decent LP to the end of it. The difference is immense and youll start wondering what all those high end folk could possibly complain about ;-))

Anyway...onto your problem... and im not sure if im absolutely right but its a potential issue ive been made aware of by advice from a serious preamp guy... in fact hes a veritable hifi electronics high end boffin. 

I currently simply plug the P2 into the phono stage on my Yamaha RXV-2067 receiver. Its an older but nice sounding receiver but id read that built in phono stages in such units are usually compromised in quality. So after doing the Bias2 thingy I asked this forum about phono preamps under $600.... thinking the ProJect valve unit to be the one I may start at. I got one particular reply (then a few followups) from a fan of StereoCoffee units built by Chris Daly in New Zealand... and am now waiting til I get one hes building for me.

As a consequence of my chats with Chris Ive learned not all preamps are ideally matched up with all power amps! His SC unit has an output of 350mv.... if matched with a power amp with a rated power output of 100w per channel but with a required input of 2v id actually only get about 18w per channel...

So bugger it ive stretched my dollars and bit the bullet to get a perfect match amp for the preamp... hoping for a significant upgrade in sound! Time will tell ;-))

Its possible that if your current preamp isnt a pure match for your power amp it may sound fine with normal line level inputs but putting a 'table into it may show up any imbalances between them.

Also be careful of output knobs on preamps... I got myself a Rega Mini Fono with an output knob... but found out later it actually only controlled the output of the usb. 

These thoughts from an older fella who is rediscovering the love of vinyl.... but absolutely loving a re-found love! (should I say "love" again! hehehe!) :-))

I wonder if that helps...

Cheers, Scotty.

P.S. The P2 doesnt have adjustable feet... and getting it perfectly level is highly desired. I bought a round spirit level and Ive used a combination of a 20cent piece and bluetack under the rear foot as thats where its necessary for me (my floor is not exactly level and the shelf unit it sits on has been adjusted by eye with bits of thick cardboard but to get the table perfect further adjustments were necessary). I also just bought a cheap set of Sorbothane squares from ebay... I dont play loud and my table is removed from my speakers but the slightly disconcerting "tonk" when tapping the 'table is all but gone. 

Im about to get a digital weight (tracking force) gauge from ebay too... as the weight adjustment on the P2 arm is not exactly easy to see! The amount is as the manual says for sure... but its hard to get it perfect. A $25-30 investment seems good to me for perfect weight adjustment. It also makes some difference in sound so being able to muck around with it a bit and being sure of where it was and getting it back if necessary is worth the small investment.

Id look forward to hearing from you about how you go with your P2 :-))

Edited by ScottyPeace
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12 hours ago, TK31 said:

so my amp is running full tilt all the time.

 

actually it's not.  You are just adjusting the level of signal being sent to the output stages of the amp.  The amp sits running at the same level until a large enough signal causes it to have to deliver power to the speakers, regardless of where the volume knob is positioned.

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13 hours ago, TK31 said:

Hi

 

I recently bought a Rega P2 TT, and have it connected to a NAD PP 2e which in turn is hooked up to a Denon AVR-3805 which are driving a pair of B&W 603 Series 2.

 

In order to get any listenable volume, i have to crank it all the way up to -17.0dB, and on some quieter records all the way to -4.0dB, so my amp is running full tilt all the time.

 

Your problem is caused by 2 things which add together:

 

1.  As Tele said, the NAD PP 2e has low gain (basically, half that of a 'standard' MM phono stage ).

 

10 hours ago, Telecine said:

The NAD PP2E phono stage has only 35db of gain on the MM setting. This is low by industry standards. Look for a phono stage with more gain on the MM setting.

 

2.  And the specs on the Rega Carbon cartridge say its output is only 2.5mV - again, half that of a typical MM cart.

 

Pro-Ject Phono Box V only has the standard 40dB gain - so it will help ... but you'd do better to find a MM phono stage which has a bit more gain - like, 43dB.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, andyr said:

Rega Carbon cartridge say its output is only 2.5mV

 

Interesting.  The identical looking, and great sounding,  AT3600L is spec'ed at 4.2 mV.   I'd be swapping the cartridge.

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Thanks guys!

Looks like i'll be swapping out the cartridge in due course but upgrading the pre-amp to one with more output which would have instantaneous results. Was looking to eventually get the Elys2 or the Bias 2 at any rate :) 

 

I should have done a bit more research before buying the PP2e. I did read it was quiet in numerous forum posts, but seemed to be isolated incidents.

 

Funnily enough, I did try it with a different amp, a Musical Fidelity Elektra E11.  It was way way louder and of listenable volume. Sadly this amp did not have headphone output (I use headphones while working) and wouldnt allow 5.1ch/7.1ch as i do use it for movies.

 

 

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I posted the below in another thread recently, but can recommend the Schiit Mani as a good sounding unit which reviews very well.

 

- I just received and can recommend a Schiit Mani, which I purchased direct from Schiit in the US. Addicted to Audio is the Australian stockist, who sells them at $340 AUD incl postage, however were out of stock when I was looking. I ended up buying at $129 USD plus postage from Schiit direct, and was able to get a black unit to match the rest of my equipment (incl black Modi 3), which A2A do not stock. Worked out to be $243 AUD incl postage, then a $7 international transaction fee on the card.

 

A few things, first being postage. Schiit offer two means, by USPS or Fedex. A lot of people have been having very slow transit times with USPS and it is not tracked or insured. I was not keen to use USPS, but when I first looked and using the postal code of my home address (0820), fedex was prohibitively expensive. It was expensive with all other residential post codes in Darwin too. Interestingly enough, when I put in the post code specific only to our post office boxes here in Darwin (0821), fedex postage dropped significantly ($90USD down to $40USD), to a price competitive with USPS. I went with Fedex to our PO box, the order arrived in Sydney within 5 days and then went snail mail from Sydney to Darwin taking a week and a half.

 

Secondly, be aware that by buying direct from Schiit means you bypass the Aussie reseller and all warranty issues would need to be mailed back to Schiit in America. I was happy to run the gauntlet being a reasonably priced unit with no glaringly obvious issues online (apart from sub-par shielding  affecting those living close to radio aerials, which is an inherent problem with the design and not a fault per say).

 

Thirdly, I was not charged GST. You may be, from what I have heard it is pot luck. Even then, at 10% of what I paid I still would've been happy.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

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I've tried to get Schitt from Addicted to Audio, but never in stock. Good to know you can straight buy from Schitt's site.. looks like this may be the pick! Thanks!

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Other than having to increase the volume control (which affects the pre-amp section) more than on other inputs, is there any other disadvantage? If not, then just getting used to using the volume control would seem to be a viable option.

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Low output MM cartridge into low gain phono stage into CD input... triple whammy !

 

Many CD/DVD inputs also have the input level governed with a resistor to match the high output of a CD with the traditional outputs of TAPE, AUX, TUNER, and "typical" +40db PHONO.

Doing so normalises listening levels when switching from one input to another.

 

If you have one of TAPE, AUX, free on the amp.. try that for the time being.

 

Why not use the on board phono input in the Denon.. it's likely going to be better than driving the receiver to max along with the noise floor. ?

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That phono preamp provides 35db of gain for a MM cart which should be more than adequate.

 

Check you've not done something silly like connected up your phono leads to your cartridge incorrectly.

 

You may also simply have a faulty cartridge. Have you used this turntable on any other setups before? Do you know for sure there's no issue with the turntable?

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Really, you'll want to change both cart and phono though I'd start with the phono and just change the cart once it's worn. You could do far worse than one of the many EAR 834P copies out there. This on is as cheap as I'd go. These things are a tube rollers dream and certainly benefit form a recap too if you ever decide to go down that path.

Edited by MattyW
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On 19/11/2020 at 8:57 AM, miyouzaic said:

Low output MM cartridge into low gain phono stage into CD input... triple whammy !

 

Many CD/DVD inputs also have the input level governed with a resistor to match the high output of a CD with the traditional outputs of TAPE, AUX, TUNER, and "typical" +40db PHONO.

Doing so normalises listening levels when switching from one input to another.

 

If you have one of TAPE, AUX, free on the amp.. try that for the time being.

 

Why not use the on board phono input in the Denon.. it's likely going to be better than driving the receiver to max along with the noise floor. ?

I tried but for some reason ended up being even quieter using the onboard phono stage. I will try using a different input though

EDIT: Put it into the VCR input and its about 4dB louder so i guess its something!

 

On 19/11/2020 at 5:46 PM, TDK said:

That phono preamp provides 35db of gain for a MM cart which should be more than adequate.

 

Check you've not done something silly like connected up your phono leads to your cartridge incorrectly.

 

You may also simply have a faulty cartridge. Have you used this turntable on any other setups before? Do you know for sure there's no issue with the turntable?

The TT is brand new out of the box and is about 7 days old. If it is i'll be claiming warranty on it! Also it came pre-setup so no chance could be wrongly wired cartridge.

 

On 24/11/2020 at 9:51 AM, MattyW said:

Really, you'll want to change both cart and phono though I'd start with the phono and just change the cart once it's worn. You could do far worse than one of the many EAR 834P copies out there. This on is as cheap as I'd go. These things are a tube rollers dream and certainly benefit form a recap too if you ever decide to go down that path.

Definitely, I'm actually already considering a Bias 2 or Elys 2

Edited by TK31
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