Is this OK? New cart requiring maximum VTF

[cheekyboy]

13 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Sorry, Keith - in what way are they different?

If I have adjusted the height of the arm at the pivot so that it is horizontal on a particular LP, say ... then if I raise the arm pillar 0.5 mm ... the stylus will also be 0.5 mm higher, relative to that same LP, when the arm is level.

Let's assume your maths is correct!    (I don't know the equations.)

Both of these suggest a VTA-on-the-fly capability is a good thing to have on an arm!  

 

Andy

 

Hello, Andy, no need to apologise mate. I hope @Richard Tremain can answer some of those questions I asked, because a lot of it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Anyhow, I was asking @Richard Tremain whether he was making these changes by lifting or lowering the stylus or lifting or lowering the tonearm base, not relative to a level tonearm [which I presume your level is the centre line of the tonearm parallel to the record surface?]

Edit: Try this............tonearm centre line is parallel to the record surface with the stylus in contact with the record surface (tonearm is level). Lift the tonearm pillar say 10 mm.......the stylus is still in contact with the record surface (albeit, there will be about a 2 deg of change to the SRA) but your tonearm base will now be 10 mm higher and the tonearm centre line will no longer be parallel to the record surface.

 

I based my math on 5mm change at the tonearm base resulting in 1 deg of change in SRA for a 9" tonearm [I'm working on 1.0 mm of change in tonearm base height will result in 0.19 deg of change in SRA.................if you want to work this out for any tonearm, divide the effective length by 57.3]

 

If you want to adjust SRA on the fly, I agree, that capability in the tonearm would be a good thing indeed. Don’t take what I said out of context though, because if you’re talking about half a millimetre change at the tonearm base, you’re wasting your time.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 24, 2020 by cheekyboy

[Richard Tremain]

On 24/11/2020 at 5:55 PM, cheekyboy said:

Hello, Andy, no need to apologise mate. I hope @Richard Tremain can answer some of those questions I asked, because a lot of it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Anyhow, I was asking @Richard Tremain whether he was making these changes by lifting or lowering the stylus or lifting or lowering the tonearm base, not relative to a level tonearm [which I presume your level is the centre line of the tonearm parallel to the record surface?]

Edit: Try this............tonearm centre line is parallel to the record surface with the stylus in contact with the record surface (tonearm is level). Lift the tonearm pillar say 10 mm.......the stylus is still in contact with the record surface (albeit, there will be about a 2 deg of change to the SRA) but your tonearm base will now be 10 mm higher and the tonearm centre line will no longer be parallel to the record surface.

 

I based my math on 5mm change at the tonearm base resulting in 1 deg of change in SRA for a 9" tonearm [I'm working on 1.0 mm of change in tonearm base height will result in 0.19 deg of change in SRA.................if you want to work this out for any tonearm, divide the effective length by 57.3]

 

If you want to adjust SRA on the fly, I agree, that capability in the tonearm would be a good thing indeed. Don’t take what I said out of context though, because if you’re talking about half a millimetre change at the tonearm base, you’re wasting your time.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

[Richard Tremain]

Odear, You are over thinking this, maybe try reading slower with less preconception. It is likely all your tecnical points are correct but non of them are new they are as old as mathematics it self. But it is- assumption- to say so and so is- generaly accepted- and this is where the foundation for technical thinking  gets very wobbly.

The Tensions are those involved in changing arm height at its BASE.

Yes 0.5mm means a AH. change of say 22.5mm to 23mm measured at the Base.

You really cant work out why it would be more difficult to hear a Bass change on a stand mount versus a full range Floor Stander?

The reasons were why VTA may NOT be audible.

Understand these are SMALL changes only for the last finishing touches.

All record production, cutter angles etc vary but you need to start Somewhere the suggestion is use of  simple well recorded music (not classical as guitar, drum kit and vocal all present together give required elements at the same time) gives a better chance of being somewhere in the center of variations. 

Finally as long as your happy without VTA be happy its cool.

 

 

 

[cheekyboy]

16 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

Odear, You are over thinking this, maybe try reading slower with less preconception. It is likely all your tecnical points are correct but non of them are new they are as old as mathematics it self. But it is- assumption- to say so and so is- generaly accepted- and this is where the foundation for technical thinking  gets very wobbly.

.

Yes 0.5mm means a AH. change of say 22.5mm to 23mm measured at the Base.

 

The reasons were why VTA may NOT be audible.

Understand these are SMALL changes only for the last finishing touches.

 

 

Hello Richard,

 

Well, you can call me dear or whatever you want, I guess, but I'm actually trying to work out if you're attempting to be funny or you're actually as condescending as you sound! 

 

I did document for you my equipment to an extent and the fact that I have tried over a very long period of time, with an extremely wide variety of music genres, to elicit an audible change by varying SRA, but at no point was I able to achieve this with the minute changes in tonearm height at the base as you describe. If you go from 22.5 mm to 23.00 mm in base height, you will not hear an audible change due to a change in SRA, from my experience. Something else may well be causing this audible change you're hearing and pure civility on my part will not allow me to write here what I actually think that might be, but rest assured, it will not be caused by changing the SRA by 0.01 of a degree.

 

Quote

You really cant work out why it would be more difficult to hear a Bass change on a stand mount versus a full range Floor Stander?

 

You said, "If the system sound is to Brite or to Dull again small changes to HF may not be meaningful or even noticeable - likewise for Bass if you use 2 way spk" I'm guessing you mean 'too bright or too dull'? I asked you, "Why would the bass in a 2 way loudspeaker not be meaningful or noticeable?"  If I have a bass note of 50hZ produced by a 2 way standmount loudspeaker and the same bass note of 50hZ produced by a 2 way floorstander loudspeaker, why would the 2 way not be meaningful or noticeable by comparison? 

To answer your question, I really can't work out why a bass change would be any more difficult or easier to hear on a standmount loudspeaker compared to a floorstander loudspeaker, provided both loudspeakers are producing the same bass note at the same decibel level.

 

Quote

The Tensions are those involved in changing arm height at its BASE

 

I'm reading what you've written above and I still don't have a clue what the hell a Tension is and how it has anything to do with variations in SRA and whether these result in an audible change?

 

Quote

 

All record production, cutter angles etc vary but you need to start Somewhere the suggestion is use of  simple well recorded music (not classical as guitar, drum kit and vocal all present together give required elements at the same time) gives a better chance of being somewhere in the center of variations. 

 

 

 

 

I think I mentioned cutting head angles in record production to you, but the context was that you would get a bigger swing or change in SRA from this, than you would from lifting the tonearm base by 0.5 mm. Also, you would get a bigger swing or variation in SRA by simply adding an additional platter mat or even by going from a thin record to a thick record.

 

Quote

Finally as long as your happy without VTA be happy its cool.

 

Despite the lack of punctuation and the use of 'your' instead of 'you're', I understand what you're trying to say above. I prefer the term SRA, because I assume we're talking about the angle the stylus makes with the surface of the record, more precisely, how closely that matches the grooves cut by the original lathe cutting head, regardless of what the VTA is. 

 

I'm afraid it's not a case of being happy or even unhappy with SRA [VTA as you say above], because if you use a phono cartridge to play music from a piece of vinyl, you will always have SRA to deal with. The trick for you, Richard, is to get it right!

 

Finally, as long as you're happy with constantly fiddling with your tonearm height and not listening to your music, that's cool. Good luck with your projects and be happy!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by cheekyboy

[Richard Tremain]

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Hello Richard,

 

Well, you can call me dear or whatever you want, I guess, but I'm actually trying to work out if you're attempting to be funny or you're actually as condescending as you sound! 

 

I did document for you my equipment to an extent and the fact that I have tried over a very long period of time, with an extremely wide variety of music genres, to elicit an audible change by varying SRA, but at no point was I able to achieve this with the minute changes in tonearm height at the base as you describe. If you go from 22.5 mm to 23.00 mm in base height, you will not hear an audible change due to a change in SRA, from my experience. Something else may well be causing this audible change you're hearing and pure civility on my part will not allow me to write here what I actually think that might be, but rest assured, it will not be caused by changing the SRA by 0.01 of a degree.

 

 

I'm reading what you've written above and I still don't have a clue what the hell a Tension is and how it has anything to do with variations in SRA and whether these result in an audible change?

 

 

I think I mentioned cutting head angles in record production to you, but the context was that you would get a bigger swing or change in SRA from this, than you would from lifting the tonearm base by 0.5 mm. Also, you would get a bigger swing or variation in SRA by simply adding an additional platter mat or even by going from a thin record to a thick record.

 

 

Despite the lack of punctuation and the use of 'your' instead of 'you're', I understand what you're trying to say above. I prefer the term SRA, because I assume we're talking about the angle the stylus makes with the surface of the record, more precisely, how closely that matches the grooves cut by the original lathe cutting head, regardless of what the VTA is. 

 

I'm afraid it's not a case of being happy or even unhappy with SRA [VTA as you say above], because if you use a phono cartridge to play music from a piece of vinyl, you will always have SRA to deal with. The trick for you, Richard, is to get it right!

 

Finally, as long as you're happy with constantly fiddling with your tonearm height and not listening to your music, that's cool. Good luck with your projects and be happy!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

[Richard Tremain]

I have not read anything you wrote. Just came to put a footnote that came to mind. ie. If i were to put the OEM VDH cable on my SME 309 it is likely i would not hear VTA changes either!  Cheers All

[andyr]

25 minutes ago, Richard Tremain said:

I have not read anything you wrote. Just came to put a footnote that came to mind. ie. If i were to put the OEM VDH cable on my SME 309 it is likely i would not hear VTA changes either!  Cheers All

 

Can I suggest a little thing to you, RT - which I suggest would make your posts a little more clear.

 

You said "I have not read anything you wrote. ".  Now, I'm sure you know whom you are talking about ... but we (who read your response) don't!  

 

So why not quote the post you are referring to ... before your response?  That would give your readers the context of your response.

 

Andy

 

BTW, sorry to pick on you, RT - many other folk here similarly do not reference the responses they make, so we have little idea of what inspired their response.

 

[cheekyboy]

2 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

I have not read anything you wrote. Just came to put a footnote that came to mind. ie. If i were to put the OEM VDH cable on my SME 309 it is likely i would not hear VTA changes either!  Cheers All

Hello Richard,

 

I agree with @andyr Andy’s remarks ahead of mine and I have no idea, nor would anyone else here, to whom you are referring!

 

I see you quoted my post in response to you and you wrote nothing in reply. I can only take this as an affirmation and that you agree with everything I wrote............thank you.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 27, 2020 by cheekyboy

[mloutfie]

http://www.analogueartisan.com/A1.html get this will solve any vta issues. You will get other issues though like medical complications after selling a kidney

[Richard Tremain]

19 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Hello Richard,

 

Well, you can call me dear or whatever you want, I guess, but I'm actually trying to work out if you're attempting to be funny or you're actually as condescending as you sound! 

 

I did document for you my equipment to an extent and the fact that I have tried over a very long period of time, with an extremely wide variety of music genres, to elicit an audible change by varying SRA, but at no point was I able to achieve this with the minute changes in tonearm height at the base as you describe. If you go from 22.5 mm to 23.00 mm in base height, you will not hear an audible change due to a change in SRA, from my experience. Something else may well be causing this audible change you're hearing and pure civility on my part will not allow me to write here what I actually think that might be, but rest assured, it will not be caused by changing the SRA by 0.01 of a degree.

 

 

You said, "If the system sound is to Brite or to Dull again small changes to HF may not be meaningful or even noticeable - likewise for Bass if you use 2 way spk" I'm guessing you mean 'too bright or too dull'? I asked you, "Why would the bass in a 2 way loudspeaker not be meaningful or noticeable?"  If I have a bass note of 50hZ produced by a 2 way standmount loudspeaker and the same bass note of 50hZ produced by a 2 way floorstander loudspeaker, why would the 2 way not be meaningful or noticeable by comparison? 

To answer your question, I really can't work out why a bass change would be any more difficult or easier to hear on a standmount loudspeaker compared to a floorstander loudspeaker, provided both loudspeakers are producing the same bass note at the same decibel level.

 

 

I'm reading what you've written above and I still don't have a clue what the hell a Tension is and how it has anything to do with variations in SRA and whether these result in an audible change?

 

 

I think I mentioned cutting head angles in record production to you, but the context was that you would get a bigger swing or change in SRA from this, than you would from lifting the tonearm base by 0.5 mm. Also, you would get a bigger swing or variation in SRA by simply adding an additional platter mat or even by going from a thin record to a thick record.

 

 

Despite the lack of punctuation and the use of 'your' instead of 'you're', I understand what you're trying to say above. I prefer the term SRA, because I assume we're talking about the angle the stylus makes with the surface of the record, more precisely, how closely that matches the grooves cut by the original lathe cutting head, regardless of what the VTA is. 

 

I'm afraid it's not a case of being happy or even unhappy with SRA [VTA as you say above], because if you use a phono cartridge to play music from a piece of vinyl, you will always have SRA to deal with. The trick for you, Richard, is to get it right!

 

Finally, as long as you're happy with constantly fiddling with your tonearm height and not listening to your music, that's cool. Good luck with your projects and be happy!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

Trying to be friendly.

[Richard Tremain]

Enough has been written about VTA.  So at the risk of throwing a bone to the dog i am putting something to the Technical People out there.

A Technical argument can be used to support a Subjective one because the Keys and Locks of one fit the other 

( think how viruses attach  to cells here )

But a Technical argument can never over rule a Subjective one, this is because Subjectivness  is fluid like a ever changing virus and the fixed Keys and Locks of Technical now no longer fit.  Like trying to use a spanner to turn water.  This is because Subjectivness is not a formal branch of science so can not be governed by its Keys and Locks it is if anything a state of mental perception. 

[andyr]

1 minute ago, Richard Tremain said:

Enough has been written about VTA.  So at the risk of throwing a bone to the dog i am putting something to the Technical People out there.

A Technical argument can be used to support a Subjective one because the Keys and Locks of one fit the other 

( think how viruses attach  to cells here )

But a Technical argument can never over rule a Subjective one, this is because Subjectivness  is fluid like a ever changing virus and the fixed Keys and Locks of Technical now no longer fit.  Like trying to use a spanner to turn water.  This is because Subjectivness is not a formal branch of science so can not be governed by its Keys and Locks it is if anything a state of mental perception. 

 

Great post, RT!  

 

Andy

 

[cheekyboy]

19 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

Trying to be friendly.

 

OK, Richard, that's nice, but you are one cryptic dude and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Again, I have to make assumptions in that you mean you are trying to be friendly, or, did you leave that pesky little question mark off the end and you are actually asking me if I'm trying to be friendly? Seriously, it shouldn't be this hard, should it?.

 

If you're happy to be constantly changing the height of your tonearm in order to get these small perceived changes in audio quality, I say good luck to you and please, knock yourself out. All I was trying to do was point out, that in my experience, those minute changes in SRA, 0.01 of a degree for example, will not make any audible difference. Now, this is my subjective POV, but what I do take umbrage with is when you tell us [collectively everyone here] that if we can't hear these minute changes, than our systems aren't sensitive enough, or that I should read slower and with less preconceptions. I can't speak for others here, but I find these types of comments to be very condescending indeed.

 

Anyhow, you're obviously trying to extend an olive branch, so I'm happy to agree to disagree. I wish you all the best and good luck with your projects, Richard.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 28, 2020 by cheekyboy

[cheekyboy]

On 28/11/2020 at 11:07 AM, Richard Tremain said:

Enough has been written about VTA.  So at the risk of throwing a bone to the dog i am putting something to the Technical People out there.

A Technical argument can be used to support a Subjective one because the Keys and Locks of one fit the other 

( think how viruses attach  to cells here )

But a Technical argument can never over rule a Subjective one, this is because Subjectivness  is fluid like a ever changing virus and the fixed Keys and Locks of Technical now no longer fit.  Like trying to use a spanner to turn water.  This is because Subjectivness is not a formal branch of science so can not be governed by its Keys and Locks it is if anything a state of mental perception. 

 

There you go, Richard, thank you. My experiences in regard to these SRA variations are totally subjective and I'm glad that this subjective argument always trumps your technical argument, such as the requirement of the accuracy of a system, the particular genre of music and artist that is needed, the need to use a floorstanding loudspeakers as opposed to 2 way standmounts, the amount of arm tension [whatever that is!!] required or the need to use a vernier........................phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 29, 2020 by cheekyboy

[aussievintage]

47 minutes ago, Richard Tremain said:

This is because Subjectivness is not a formal branch of science so can not be governed by its Keys and Locks it is if anything a state of mental perception. 

 

and as such can not entirely relied upon

[vivianbl]

2 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

Enough has been written about VTA.  So at the risk of throwing a bone to the dog i am putting something to the Technical People out there.

A Technical argument can be used to support a Subjective one because the Keys and Locks of one fit the other 

( think how viruses attach  to cells here )

But a Technical argument can never over rule a Subjective one, this is because Subjectivness  is fluid like a ever changing virus and the fixed Keys and Locks of Technical now no longer fit.  Like trying to use a spanner to turn water.  This is because Subjectivness is not a formal branch of science so can not be governed by its Keys and Locks it is if anything a state of mental perception. 

“What is subjectively perceived is the truth. Science try’s to explain it, not deny it.”  Confucius...just saying!

[Richard Tremain]

On 27/11/2020 at 4:14 PM, andyr said:

 

Can I suggest a little thing to you, RT - which I suggest would make your posts a little more clear.

 

You said "I have not read anything you wrote. ".  Now, I'm sure you know whom you are talking about ... but we (who read your response) don't!  

 

So why not quote the post you are referring to ... before your response?  That would give your readers the context of your response.

 

Andy

 

BTW, sorry to pick on you, RT - many other folk here similarly do not reference the responses they make, so we have little idea of what inspired their response.

SORRY I do not understand how Forums operate i do not know how to get the best out of them - i am reduced to pushing buttons in hope they do something, i have no computor understanding and realise this must be incredibly frustrating for others requiring them work out things - so SORRY again R.T.

 

[Richard Tremain]

On 28/11/2020 at 10:48 AM, cheekyboy said:

 

There you go, Richard, thank you. My experiences in regard to these SRA variations are totally subjective and I'm glad that this subjective argument always trumps your technical argument, such as the requirement of the accuracy of a system, the particular genre of music and artist that is needed, the need to use a floorstanding loudspeakers as opposed to 2 way standmounts, the amount of arm tension [whatever that is!!] required or the need to use a vernier........................phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith   

On 28/11/2020 at 10:48 AM, cheekyboy said:

 

There you go, Richard, thank you. My experiences in regard to these SRA variations are totally subjective and I'm glad that this subjective argument always trumps your technical argument, such as the requirement of the accuracy of a system, the particular genre of music and artist that is needed, the need to use a floorstanding loudspeakers as opposed to 2 way standmounts, the amount of arm tension [whatever that is!!] required or the need to use a vernier........................phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Hi, (have had a Try pushing more buttons for posting but still guessing) Keith if i may point out absolutely no one else has had a query - question or request for clarification of what were hints (not scientificly fixed points) regarding exploring VTA. I can not give answers to your questions without what would be unessarily  long winded replys so do not know what else i can say.

 

[cheekyboy]

1 hour ago, Richard Tremain said:

Hi, (have had a Try pushing more buttons for posting but still guessing) Keith if i may point out absolutely no one else has had a query - question or request for clarification of what were hints (not scientificly fixed points) regarding exploring VTA. I can not give answers to your questions without what would be unessarily  long winded replys so do not know what else i can say.

 

Hello Richard,

 

Please read my post that you quoted above and you'll note that I am not asking you any questions in that post and thus, answers or long winded replies from you weren't sought anyway.

 

I have no idea what no one else having a query, question or request for clarification of hints has to do with my post? Are you meaning scientifically fixed points regarding exploring VTA?  I'm sorry, but I can't see any relevance to my post, other than that you are commenting on my subjective findings regarding changes to SRA versus your scientifically founded objective findings, perhaps?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[andyr]

 

2 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

 

SORRY I do not understand how Forums operate i do not know how to get the best out of them - i am reduced to pushing buttons in hope they do something, i have no computer understanding and realise this must be incredibly frustrating for others requiring them work out things - so SORRY again R.T.

 

 

NP, RT - thanks for your explanation.  

 

Just a word of caution ... I find it much easier to do a good job posting (and particularly when quoting a previous post), using a computer (rather than a phone).  But then, yes, I am an old fart!    (Even older than @cheekyboy!)

 

Andy

 

[cheekyboy]

3 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

 But then, yes, I am an old fart!    (Even older than @cheekyboy!)

 

Clearly, Andy.................you say it like it wouldn't be obvious! Phone?......................you can make a post using a phone?

[denimhunter]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:08 AM, qik_shift said:

Hey Keith,

 

Yeah I'm quite confident distortion isn't coming from the record - it's happening to about 30% of my whole record collection and this issue didn't occur with my previous cartridge.

 

It's a brand new item, so unlikely worn or damaged.

 

I purchased an analogue productions test record earlier this week and it should be delivered today. I'll let you know how that goes. 

 

I have no fozgometer to check azimuth unfortunately.  Any other ways I can check azimuth?

Try using a mono record esp. vocal to check azimuth.  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Clearly, Andy.................you say it like it wouldn't be obvious! Phone?......................you can make a post using a phone?

Yup - you just pop down the post shop, pop it in a box and away you go.

[Richard Tremain]

2 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Hello Richard,

 

Please read my post that you quoted above and you'll note that I am not asking you any questions in that post and thus, answers or long winded replies from you weren't sought anyway.

 

I have no idea what no one else having a query, question or request for clarification of hints has to do with my post? Are you meaning scientifically fixed points regarding exploring VTA?  I'm sorry, but I can't see any relevance to my post, other than that you are commenting on my subjective findings regarding changes to SRA versus your scientifically founded objective findings, perhaps?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith       Dont be difficult, it simply relates to the entirety of your posts which are Full of questions.

I

[Richard Tremain]

1 hour ago, denimhunter said:

Try using a mono record esp. vocal to check azimuth.  

Hey good tip, i missed that one due to having no Mono material. Unipivots will do it Head shell arms maybe else wise a paper shim can work. Other wise i have found introducing a third element which is not preferably Magnesium to pack /spacer a cartridge alters the tonal sound.