Is this OK? New cart requiring maximum VTF

[qik_shift]

Oh I should say that Michael's comments on sensitivity in interference/radio noise is my experience too, but all mine stops as soon as the stylus hits the record.  I'll look into reducing noise after I get my next turntable (on order).

 

 

[vivianbl]

18 hours ago, mloutfie said:

@vivianbl @qik_shift psaudio stellar looks like a great phono. Been following the development and definitely been an interesting one a fully discreet phono with good loading flexibility. It is definitely on my list to try. What other have you compared it to btw?

I’ve been using a 1988/9 VTL Ultimate Dual Mono Preamp for about 17 years now and the moving coil phono stage specifically for vinyl. In 2019 had it serviced and brought up to spec, using better capacitors, resistors, valves etc, so really sounding good. Recall Arthur Salvatore in his “Reference components” saying that it was the best phono stage that has been produced by VTL.
Plenty of options to adjust cartridge load levels using dip switches. I bypassed the line stage by going to power amps via Rec Out, because it sounded better that way! My only concern was the level of valve/ resistor hiss. Hence my looking recently for alternatives that would match my system, not lose the qualities of music presentation that I enjoy and hopefully enhance it.
Had a chance to try out some options using the same equipment-turntable, tonearm, cartridge, power amplifiers and speakers.

During the lockdown period, I had the opportunity to try the PS Audio Stellar Phono Pre that has had rave reviews. Must have read all of them, including everyone of the 709 posts about it in a PS Audio Forum! I already use PS Audio P10 and was keen to try out the Phono pre.

Great user features and options. Tried it directly to power amps, but sounded better through the line stage of the VTL and Rec out (better than line stage out).

 

It was dead quiet, you could literally hear the sound of silence! Great separation, detail, pinpoint imaging. Soundstage depth and width with instruments and voice emanating from a silent background Excellent PRAT and toe tapping!  
The VTL, whilst not having the same separation and low noise floor, somehow conveyed the scale, body, intimacy of voice and the intent of the music/ performance. For example, In a classical piece of music the feeling  of menace in one segment of the music was obvious and convincingly conveyed. 

The other unit I tried was the Audion Select MC1 Step up Transformer into the VTL MM and Rec out to power amps and Select MC1 Step up to Audion Premier MM phono with outputs directly to power amps.

The Audion Select MC1 Step Up Transformer and Audion Premier MM Phono Pre combination was clearly my preferred option within the parameters of my system ( power amps/ speakers turntable Tonearm/ cartridge etc) and listening environment. 
Whilst  the Audion combination did not have the user features/ options of the VTL Ultimate and the Stellar, the music presentation had the balance of what I was wanting- Hard to describe in words- Scale, weight, body, palpability, “believability”, presence, timbre of instruments, conveying musical intent and shear musicality.

 

[metal beat]

On 21/11/2020 at 1:25 PM, qik_shift said:

The more I seem to learn about turntable tuning - it seems the most common message I can find among the experienced is to trust your ears.

 

Don't get me wrong - 200 ohms sounded pretty good too.  I'm just being super nitpicky .  For some music I could imagine 200 ohms might be better.  In addition to the custom MC loading at the rear of the phono stage, there are some presets that I can easily select from my chair so I'll continue to occasionally switch to 200 and see how it sounds.

 

 

Some people seem to suggest that yes the cables can also have an impact on loading, as they have a resistance of their own.  I'm far from a specialist in this area though.

 

I've been so happy with the phono stage TBH.  Sound quality seems amazing to me - also very highly rated by a person I keenly follow - Michael Fremer.  I can also now convert my P6 to a mono deck and run a MM cart and plug it into the same phono stage too.

 

 

 

with your cartridge, 200ohms loading is plain wrong.   As a rule of thumb, the input resistance of the phono stage should be about 10X the internal resistance of the phono cartridge, to assure a flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz, all other things being equal.

 

  Your cartridge has a high internal impedance of 42ohms - so the minimum loading for it to have flat frequency response is 420 ohm.   no surprises that 500 ohms and above sounded better and more open.   

 

cheers

[mloutfie]

7 hours ago, vivianbl said:

I’ve been using a 1988/9 VTL Ultimate Dual Mono Preamp for about 17 years now and the moving coil phono stage specifically for vinyl. In 2019 had it serviced and brought up to spec, using better capacitors, resistors, valves etc, so really sounding good. Recall Arthur Salvatore in his “Reference components” saying that it was the best phono stage that has been produced by VTL.
Plenty of options to adjust cartridge load levels using dip switches. I bypassed the line stage by going to power amps via Rec Out, because it sounded better that way! My only concern was the level of valve/ resistor hiss. Hence my looking recently for alternatives that would match my system, not lose the qualities of music presentation that I enjoy and hopefully enhance it.
Had a chance to try out some options using the same equipment-turntable, tonearm, cartridge, power amplifiers and speakers.

During the lockdown period, I had the opportunity to try the PS Audio Stellar Phono Pre that has had rave reviews. Must have read all of them, including everyone of the 709 posts about it in a PS Audio Forum! I already use PS Audio P10 and was keen to try out the Phono pre.

Great user features and options. Tried it directly to power amps, but sounded better through the line stage of the VTL and Rec out (better than line stage out).

 

It was dead quiet, you could literally hear the sound of silence! Great separation, detail, pinpoint imaging. Soundstage depth and width with instruments and voice emanating from a silent background Excellent PRAT and toe tapping!  
The VTL, whilst not having the same separation and low noise floor, somehow conveyed the scale, body, intimacy of voice and the intent of the music/ performance. For example, In a classical piece of music the feeling  of menace in one segment of the music was obvious and convincingly conveyed. 

The other unit I tried was the Audion Select MC1 Step up Transformer into the VTL MM and Rec out to power amps and Select MC1 Step up to Audion Premier MM phono with outputs directly to power amps.

The Audion Select MC1 Step Up Transformer and Audion Premier MM Phono Pre combination was clearly my preferred option within the parameters of my system ( power amps/ speakers turntable Tonearm/ cartridge etc) and listening environment. 
Whilst  the Audion combination did not have the user features/ options of the VTL Ultimate and the Stellar, the music presentation had the balance of what I was wanting- Hard to describe in words- Scale, weight, body, palpability, “believability”, presence, timbre of instruments, conveying musical intent and shear musicality.

 

Thanks for the comparison. Those are some nice phono youre comparing to the stellar there

Edited November 22, 2020 by mloutfie

[qik_shift]

Just thought of this, but it’s also possible the the PS Audio power regenerators may also have a play in sound dynamics too - particularly on sensitive equipment like a phono stage Im assuming. 
 

Many people around the world have sworn by them and say hands down they improve sound. 
 

Becuase of access issues, I’ve never tried playing music with and without the regenerator. But one day I will experiment. 

[vivianbl]

2 hours ago, qik_shift said:

Just thought of this, but it’s also possible the the PS Audio power regenerators may also have a play in sound dynamics too - particularly on sensitive equipment like a phono stage Im assuming. 
 

Many people around the world have sworn by them and say hands down they improve sound. 
 

Becuase of access issues, I’ve never tried playing music with and without the regenerator. But one day I will experiment. 

 I haven’t tried the phono stage and turntable with or without either, but sure improved the reproduction from the valve power amplifiers and CD player. Both the CD player (Naim CDS3) and the Linn LP12 - ARadikal- have seperate power supplies that are plugged to the regenerator.

[vivianbl]

12 hours ago, mloutfie said:

Thanks for the comparison. Those are some nice phono youre comparing to the stellar there

Yes, at those levels they are really good. You are listening to difference in presentation within your own system and listening environment and personal preferences in what you like in music.

Running the Audion Select MC1 through the VTL Ultimate MM and rec out to power amps gave vocal renditions that were exquisite - gave me goosebumps and shivers, but didn’t have as much scale and dynamic as the Audion Premier MM. Would have been quite happy with that( Ultimate MM/ Select MC1 combination and will try it again after I have run in the Audion Premier (60 hrs)a bit more.

 

[Richard Tremain]

You can not correct for Stylus Rake Angle by relating other settings to 2nd place that is total nonsense.  Linn Arms are all height adjustable wether you use their cartridges or not.

[cheekyboy]

40 minutes ago, Richard Tremain said:

You can not correct for Stylus Rake Angle by relating other settings to 2nd place that is total nonsense.  Linn Arms are all height adjustable wether you use their cartridges or not.

 

I'm curious as to what you mean by 'relating other settings to 2nd place'. I can't see the context and you didn't quote anyone and I'm probably too lazy to search back through this thread to see where it is.

I've been reluctant to get involved in this and I've read some comments about VTA/SRA that, as you say, don't make any sense. It is generally agreed that you need at least 1 deg of change in either direction to the SRA to achieve any audible difference and using a 9" tonearm you would need to lift or lower the tonearm base by around 4.5mm - 5.0mm in order to achieve that 1 deg of change in SRA at the stylus. All these tiny incremental movements at the tonearm base would not be having any impact on the sound whatsoever.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 23, 2020 by cheekyboy

[vivianbl]

2 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

 

I'm curious as to what you mean by 'relating other settings to 2nd place'. I can't see the context and you didn't quote anyone and I'm probably too lazy to search back through this thread to see where it is.

I've been reluctant to get involved in this and I've read some comments about VTA/SRA that, as you say, don't make any sense. It is generally agreed that you need at least 1 deg of change in either direction to the SRA to achieve any audible difference and using a 9" tonearm you would need to lift or lower the tonearm base by around 4.5mm - 5.0mm in order to achieve that 1 deg of change in SRA at the stylus. All these tiny incremental movements at the tonearm base would not be having any impact on the sound whatsoever.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

The culprit was me!

The issue was the optimum  VTF level on the same cartridge. I happened to mention that when I got my turntable back from the service technician, the VTF was set at a much lower level 1.9g rather than the 2.3-2.6 recommended.( I had it at 2.5g). When I phoned back the service guy, he said that he used the rake angle (SRA) as the primary focus for the setting. When I recently had anew Tonearm installed a couple of weeks ago, the new  person setting up put the VTF at 2.3g. 
I hadn’t intended getting into a technical discussion about the process of choosing the best cartridge alignment processes or VTF. Just relaying what I was told!

[andyr]

2 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

 

It is generally agreed that you need at least 1 deg of change in either direction to the SRA to achieve any audible difference and using a 9" tonearm you would need to lift or lower the tonearm base by around 4.5mm - 5.0mm in order to achieve that 1 deg of change in SRA at the stylus. All these tiny incremental movements at the tonearm base would not be having any impact on the sound whatsoever.

 

 

Perhaps you need to read the late, great Allen Wright's white paper on cart setup, Keith.  

 

IIRC, he talks about <1mm change at the pivot point being hearable.

 

Andy

 

[cheekyboy]

11 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Perhaps you need to read the late, great Allen Wright's white paper on cart setup, Keith.  

 

IIRC, he talks about <1mm change at the pivot point being hearable.

 

Andy

 

Yeah, as I said, I was reluctant to get involved for this very reason. If you can hear a change in sound by lifting or lowering the tonearm base by 1mm, then good luck to you, but I’ve not been able to achieve it, however, I’m obviously not as clever as the great Allen Wright!,

Edited November 23, 2020 by cheekyboy

[aussievintage]

45 minutes ago, andyr said:

Perhaps you need to read the late, great Allen Wright's white paper on cart setup, Keith.  

 

IIRC, he talks about <1mm change at the pivot point being hearable.

 

Don't care how late and great he may or may not have been,   but, especially without specifying what cart and stylus etc, I do not accept that statement, at least in the general way you are applying it.   

 

My SME arms are easy to raise and lower, and I have done it many times.  One example was chasing better sound from a thin sounding AT440MLa.   Nothing made much difference.   Another example, just the other day I changed headshells, to one that had a different vertical offset, which meant the headshell coupling was too close to fouling on the raised record edge.  I raised the arm a few mm and the sound was still the same.  The cart was a VM95ML.  

[vivianbl]

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

Don't care how late and great he may or may not have been,   but, especially without specifying what cart and stylus etc, I do not accept that statement, at least in the general way you are applying it.   

 

My SME arms are easy to raise and lower, and I have done it many times.  One example was chasing better sound from a thin sounding AT440MLa.   Nothing made much difference.   Another example, just the other day I changed headshells, to one that had a different vertical offset, which meant the headshell coupling was too close to fouling on the raised record edge.  I raised the arm a few mm and the sound was still the same.  The cart was a VM95ML.  

I changed from a thick Linn felt mat to a thin Collaro mat, didn’t like the much thinner and brighter  presentation. Had the arm lowered a fraction to get parallel. Voila! Much better tonal balance and body.
Maybe some cartridges are more sensitive to SRA/ VTA.

[aussievintage]

Just now, vivianbl said:

Maybe some cartridges are more sensitive to SRA/ VTA.

That's why I rejected it as a general statement without knowing the cart and stylus shape etc.  I know for a fact from my own testing that the sound does not change  in the situations, quite varied, that I have experienced.  

 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

Don't care how late and great he may or may not have been,   but, especially without specifying what cart and stylus etc, I do not accept that statement, at least in the general way you are applying it.

 

 

He's (or rather, was) a noted figure in the world of hifi - whereas you, av (and me) are just another dog on the internet.  

 

So I am happy to believe him.

 

Quote

 

My SME arms are easy to raise and lower, and I have done it many times.

 

 

Sure, they're "easy to raise and lower ".  But when you unscrew the grub screws holding the pillar in place ... they fall - making it very difficult to get back to exactly the previous height (and then raise or lower slightly from there.  What you need - to be able to claim "easy raising & lowering " - is a VTA-on-the-fly mechanism.

 

Which the Graham 2.2 arm on my previous TT had ... and both my current arms have (Duc's "Univector" and a Magnepan "Unitrac".)

 

Quote

 

One example was chasing better sound from a thin sounding AT440MLa.   Nothing made much difference.   Another example, just the other day I changed headshells, to one that had a different vertical offset, which meant the headshell coupling was too close to fouling on the raised record edge.  I raised the arm a few mm and the sound was still the same.  The cart was a VM95ML.

 

 

Have no idea about AT440MLa and VM95ML ... but do they have conical styli?  (Which, yes, are not very fussy about VTA.)

 

Andy

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by andyr

[aussievintage]

8 minutes ago, andyr said:

So I am happy to believe him.

 

Good luck to you then.  Sometimes you have to think for yourself.

 

8 minutes ago, andyr said:

Have no idea about AT440MLa and VM95ML ... but do they have conical styli? 

 

 

ffs   what do you think the ML stands for?  Microline  Why would I choose a conical as my examples???

 

8 minutes ago, andyr said:

Sure, they're "easy to raise and lower ".  But when you unscrew the grub screws holding the pillar in place ... they fall - making it very difficult to get back to exactly the previous height (and then raise or lower slightly from there. 

 

 

Did you not read what I wrote???  I raised it enough to stop the the headshell coupling fouling on the record edge.  That's a BIG raise, and the sound did not change.

 

Rule of holes Andy

Edited November 23, 2020 by aussievintage

[rantan]

[andyr]

Just now, rantan said:

 

Yeah, typical, r!  Just sit on the sidelines watching the ball go from side to side!  

 

Andy

 

[Richard Tremain]

Hey Guys, I am quite prepared to accept some people do not detect changes to VTA. It is a bit like cables if you try and choose them by connecting to the out put of a cassett player you will find it difficult to come up with an order of merit various things will just not be noticeable.  The more highly accurate a system is (to the ears of the owner) and the use of a well recorded known sound - Folk music - Wille Nelson etc, rather than Mettallica. The easier it is to detect VTA you dont want a whole lot going on. If the system sound is to Brite or to Dull again small changes to HF may not be meaningful or even noticeable - likewise for Bass if you use 2 way spk.  Also it takes practice to learn to recognise the sound changes relating to VTA until you acquire this sensitivity no it wont happen. To get repeatabilty is Vital to avoid confusion you need the Very most accurate measuring system Possible - and all Arm Tension settings (some where in the upper mid tension range) to be repeatable.

I use a Vernier and can read to 1/10th of a mm. Recently setting up Latest ATOC9 i had no trouble at all detecting 0. 5 mm settings  with a SME 309 Tone Arm fitted with a After Market cable.

[aussievintage]

25 minutes ago, Richard Tremain said:

It is a bit like cables if you try and choose them by connecting to the out put of a cassett player you will find it difficult to come up with an order of merit various things will just not be noticeable. 

 

aah, the old  "your system isn't good enough" argument.  Problem with that is, mine definitely IS good enough.

[cheekyboy]

3 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

Hey Guys, I am quite prepared to accept some people do not detect changes to VTA. It is a bit like cables if you try and choose them by connecting to the out put of a cassett player you will find it difficult to come up with an order of merit various things will just not be noticeable.  The more highly accurate a system is (to the ears of the owner) and the use of a well recorded known sound - Folk music - Wille Nelson etc, rather than Mettallica. The easier it is to detect VTA you dont want a whole lot going on.   

I'm glad you accept that some people can't detect changes in SRA, but just to qualify what I stated earlier in this thread, I can't hear minute movements of the tonearm base manifesting in an audible change to the sound of the record. Certainly, movements that result in more than 1 deg of change in SRA are generally regarded to be able to cause an audible change.

I'm not sure what you mean when you mention connecting cables to the output of a cassette player, or for that matter what that has to do with detectable changes in SRA?

I'm a big fan of Willie Nelson, so I'm with you on that and agree that one of his records would be a better choice than Metallica, although I could think of a couple of Metallica tracks that would also work fine.
 

Quote

 

If the system sound is to Brite or to Dull again small changes to HF may not be meaningful or even noticeable - likewise for Bass if you use 2 way spk. 

 

I presume you mean the system sound that is going toward bright or toward dull? Would that not have a lot more to do with the actual recording as opposed to the system? Why would the bass in a 2 way loudspeaker not be meaningful or noticeable?

 

 

Quote

Also it takes practice to learn to recognise the sound changes relating to VTA until you acquire this sensitivity no it wont happen. To get repeatabilty is Vital to avoid confusion you need the Very most accurate measuring system Possible - and all Arm Tension settings (some where in the upper mid tension range) to be repeatable.

Now I'm honestly scratching my head trying to understand what you're saying here. Can you please explain what these arm tension settings are?

 

 

Quote

I use a Vernier and can read to 1/10th of a mm. Recently setting up Latest ATOC9 i had no trouble at all detecting 0. 5 mm settings  with a SME 309 Tone Arm fitted with a After Market cable.

Where are these 0.5 mm settings [I presume you mean changes] occurring, at the tonearm base or at the stylus? If you are moving the tonearm base up or down 0.5 mm and say you had your SRA set at 92.5 deg, that 0.5 mm change at the tonearm base would result in a change in SRA to about 92.4 deg or 92.6 deg, depending on which direction you moved the tonearm base. I would suggest you would be getting far bigger swings/changes in SRA from the variation in cutting head angles between different record manufacturers, or the variation between 120 gram vinyl to 180 gram vinyl for example. 

 

Some years back in Melbourne, I did many tests by altering SRA to see if I could hear these audible changes and as a result, I found I had to move the tonearm base a considerable distance before I could hear an audible change to the record playback. I'm talking movements at the tonearm base of 5 - 6 mm or more, not minute movements such as 0.5 mm. You are clearly suggesting that if someone can't hear these minute changes in SRA, that their sound systems are not sensitive enough. Without listing the total system I was using at the time down there in Melbourne, I note you nominate an SME 309 tonearm fitted with an AT OC9 cartridge as being sensitive enough for you to hear those changes. The deck I was using at the time was an SME Model 20, with an SME Series V tonearm and that fitted with a Brinkmann EMT ti cartridge..................are you suggesting that this combination would not have been sensitive or revealing enough to hear changes in SRA?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited November 24, 2020 by cheekyboy

[aussievintage]

56 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I would suggest you would be getting far bigger swings/changes in SRA from the variation in cutting head angles between different record manufacturers, or the variation between 120 gram vinyl to 180 gram vinyl for example. 

Absolutely.  0.5 mm at the pivot is nothing.  If it mattered, you would need to change the tonearm height an awfully large number of times each session.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Where are these 0.5 mm settings [I presume you mean changes] occurring, at the tonearm base or at the stylus?

 

 

Sorry, Keith - in what way are they different?

 

If I have adjusted the height of the arm at the pivot so that it is horizontal on a particular LP, say ... then if I raise the arm pillar 0.5 mm ... the stylus will also be 0.5 mm higher, relative to that same LP, when the arm is level.

 

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

If you are moving the tonearm base up or down 0.5 mm and say you had your SRA set at 92.5 deg, that 0.5 mm change at the tonearm base would result in a change in SRA to about 92.4 deg or 92.6 deg, depending on which direction you moved the tonearm base.

 

 

Let's assume your maths is correct!    (I don't know the equations.)

 

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

I would suggest you would be getting far bigger swings/changes in SRA from the variation in cutting head angles between different record manufacturers

 

 

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

or the variation between 120 gram vinyl to 180 gram vinyl for example. 

 

 

Both of these suggest a VTA-on-the-fly capability is a good thing to have on an arm!  

 

Andy

 

[aussievintage]

23 minutes ago, andyr said:

If I have adjusted the height of the arm at the pivot so that it is horizontal on a particular LP, say ... then if I raise the arm pillar 0.5 mm ... the stylus will also be 0.5 mm higher, relative to that same LP, when the arm is level.

 

 

Seriously wtf