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Is this OK? New cart requiring maximum VTF


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1 hour ago, qik_shift said:

Yeah that's the strange thing - others seem to run around 2.4 without problem.  Sound gets better as I reach 2.6 - but seems to need more.   

 

When I try applying more bias - the sound seems to get worse.   I know there's too much at this point because when dropping the needle at the end of the record, it fairly quickly makes its way back to the music.  Strangely reducing bias significantly results in the best sound.

 

It's possible that there's a cartridge alignment issue too I suppose......

 

While you wait for Andy a couple of comments.

What the arm does on a blank portion of a disk is no indication of correct anti-skating.

The portion of the stylus that actually touches the record is tiny, tiny, tiny and needs a good microscope  to actually see if it's ok or off-kilter from the main body of the diamond.

The final judgement is by ear (unless you have a distortion meter) so if reducing the bias gets rid of the distortion that's where it should be set. As @Richard Tremain mentions, get the distortion equal in both channels and then adjust the tracking weight to get rid of it. The old set-up records I have use a special track to facilitate this process.

Distortion does cause more wear than normal play so I would advise against playing until you get the adjustments and sound right.

Some cartridges do sound best with more tracking weight than what is commonly recommended. This is not an issue with modern stylus shapes.

 

I hope it's all easily sorted.

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15 hours ago, qik_shift said:

Strangely reducing bias significantly results in the best sound.

 

I suggest you keep reducing bias until you no longer hear any distortion in the L channel.

 

15 hours ago, qik_shift said:

It's possible that there's a cartridge alignment issue too I suppose......

 

That could be the case, certainly.  :(

 

Andy

 

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It's been a long day.  After housework duties, Geoff from HeyNow HiFi and Paul came along for a few hours and we tirelessly listened to records to replicate issues.  While none of Paul's own personal records distorted, I felt the music sounded OK but still had a boxed/closed in feeling to it.

 

Long story short, the issue came down to VTA of all things.  My tonearm assembly is not the greatest one in terms of VTA adjustability (RB330).  In my case the arm pivot point was too high and there was a taper down to the cart.  Paul ran a shim on the cartridge to compensate - at this point it felt like everything came together like magic.  We ran the cart at just over 2.4g and I didn't have that nasty distortion I had before on some records.  

 

We went further and played with VTF through some blindfolded testing.  The difference in sound in 0.01g increments was noticeable by my ear - I was shocked to be able to pick it, but went back to the 'right' same exact number twice.  How's that?!?  We settled on ~2.55g in the end.

 

Bias wasn't too difficult to set frankly once the other stuff was sorted.  We got it largely right quite quickly - and now I'm just fine tuning across different records in the collection to get it just right by ear.

 

Interestingly the stylus doesn't look fully straight - so not sure what that's about.  It slightly tapers off to the left.  The photo I sent was not on a straight angle - and Paul noticed it when the needle dropped on the record too.  So unsure if that's going to be problematic in the future?

 

This cart is fussy in terms of VTA - a commonly agreed point raised across other internet sources I could find. 

 

The music now sounds ******* amazing.  The sound stage has widened by a large margin, the detail is amazing, but a sweetness is there that I love.  Playing some familiar softer tunes actually stirred up emotions (how unmanly of me! lol) in one minute flat.  I'm not going to share more than that on sound detail until the cart has had time to run in - apparently this is one that needs a minimum of 50 hours before it should be judged.  I am seriously keen to see how much better it can get.

 

I'm so much happier now.  @andyr I will play with loading over time and let you know where I land.  Commentary above is based on 800 ohms.

 

Everybody - it's so nice to feel so supported by so many in this forum - in particular Andy who was even willing to come over and help out!  But once again - it's nice to purchase something from a retailer and there is a genuine desire to ensure the customer is happy - by driving over to the other side of town on the weekend. 

 

I will keep you filled in if any more news comes to hand.

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Wonderful to hear, Chris!  :thumb:

 

Yes, good service from your retailer is always nice to hear.  :thumb:

 

(Although I have to ask ... why didn't the TT fettler get the VTA right, the first time around?  It's not rocket science (although Rega arms don't help, in this regard)!  :| ).

 

I'm impressed you were able to hear the result of 0.01gm increase in VTF.  If you have the ability to hear this ... you should be able to pick the optimum bias for your chosen 2.55gm VTF.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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Yeah agree would have been ideal if we didn't have to re-tune, but in the tuner's defense none of his records had the distortion issue which some of mine did.  I heard them for myself.  They were all 180 gram records and that may have juuuust been enough for the distortion issue to not show.  The records I had which distorted were all 120 gram pressings.

 

I couldn't believe that I could pick the difference myself!  I think a lot of it has to do with the fussiness of the cart.  It's very rewarding - but makes you work for it!  At least it stands out when it's right.

 

Yep a big limitation is the Rega arm.  That limitation will go once I upgrade my TT to another unit - getting that bit more out of the cart though a significantly better TT/arm will be great.  That's another post in the months to come to get some SNA counsel :).  Once the finances recover a little more.

 

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14 hours ago, qik_shift said:

 

Interestingly the stylus doesn't look fully straight - so not sure what that's about.  It slightly tapers off to the left.

 

That could be bcoz there is too much bias (as bias pulls the arm outwards).?

 

14 hours ago, qik_shift said:

 

 @andyr I will play with loading over time and let you know where I land.  Commentary above is based on 800 ohms.

 

 

Yes, I will be most interested to hear how you go, with loading.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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I must say i am amazed that people including retailers apparently, spend ages trying to determine

cartridge set up often wrongly, when it can be done to 90% accuracy in 5 to 10mins with a test record.

A cartridge which is Over Fussy to VTA setting can Sometimes be an indication of less than perfect stylus

orientation although it maybe to early to jump to that conclusion in your case. Unfortunately this is

much to common and difficult to verify except in extreme samples.

I will say even when you do get a cartridge to track the sound will usually be shut in if the T/F is to high

this is because the Generator is no longer in the sweet spot which is center of recommended T/W.

Fiddling with the load impedance if possible may help but the problem is what it is.

Also it is a little odd (to me) you would research an adventurous cartridge brand - but not avail

yourself of a after market (Mitchell possibly) Rega height adjuster kit.

Footnote. 180g records throw out VTA set on 120g or 70g ones. They dont sound better either.

Edited by Richard Tremain
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On 15/11/2020 at 2:06 PM, Richard Tremain said:

I must say i am amazed that people including retailers apparently, spend ages trying to determine

cartridge set up often wrongly, when it can be done to 90% accuracy in 5 to 10mins with a test record.

A bit like how to set bias, there's often different views on how things should be done.  From a perspective of a person who knows little (me), I thought it was nice to feel like they weren't rushing through the process at least.

 

On 15/11/2020 at 2:06 PM, Richard Tremain said:

A cartridge which is Over Fussy to VTA setting can Sometimes be an indication of less than perfect stylus

orientation although it maybe to early to jump to that conclusion in your case. Unfortunately this is

much to common and difficult to verify except in extreme samples.

It seems after playing with some spacers and fine tuning bias, records of every thickness I've played seem to be playing well now.  This cart is known to be fussy with VTA, but so far it seems to be a set and forget exercise now that the cart has been shimmed.  The sound is amazing and feels quite rewarding now.  I will continue to report to the group if anything on this changes of course.  I'm feeling more confident with bias now too so will slowly experiment with loading over the weekend.

 

On 15/11/2020 at 2:06 PM, Richard Tremain said:

Also it is a little odd (to me) you would research an adventurous cartridge brand - but not avail

yourself of a after market (Mitchell possibly) Rega height adjuster kit.

Footnote.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well.  The height adjuster kit was ready to go - but the problem was that we didn't need more tonearm height (which is what these kits do) - we needed to drop the tonearm.  So to compensate a shim was used on the cart to get the right VTA.

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Great to see that regardless you are getting pleasing results from a expensive cartridge they really are a mine field to experiment with.  The reason Rega arms have no height adjustment is that R.G. believes it

does not make any difference!  The Tracking angle Null Points for the arm are configured soley for

the the crescendos  in the final groove of classical records another debatable idea, you will find many/most

records actually have no recorded material at the inner null point. That being said Rega Arms out perform

their $ cost.

 

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It's fascinating isn't it?  How different manufacturers come with views like VTA does't make a difference or Linn believing in not cleaning records - but to regularly clean the stylus instead!!

 

Considering the cart is worth twice the value of the T/T, it's pretty impressive to see how far a P6/RB330 can go.  Don't get me wrong - there's limitations but it sounds pretty impressive.

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1 hour ago, qik_shift said:

It's fascinating isn't it?  How different manufacturers come with views like VTA does't make a difference or Linn believing in not cleaning records - but to regularly clean the stylus instead!!

 

Hah - good point, Chris:

  • VTA does't make a difference - Rega.  (But, to be clear - their arm height is to suit Rega carts!)
  • Let the stylus clean the groove - and use green sandpaper to clean the stylus; Linn
  • Bias adjustment is not needed - VPI.

 

1 hour ago, qik_shift said:

 

Considering the cart is worth twice the value of the T/T, it's pretty impressive to see how far a P6/RB330 can go.  Don't get me wrong - there's limitations but it sounds pretty impressive.

 

 

A P6 is not a 'cheap' TT ... but, yes, a more-than-usual-cost cart can definitely improve it.  :)

 

Andy

 

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On 11/11/2020 at 9:36 PM, qik_shift said:

I recently organised somebody to fit a Kiseki Purple Heart to my Rega P6.  Thought I would test the limits of this turntable/arm and purchase a cart that I could use on my next TT purchase.

 

What I have found is that I get distortion in one of the channels unless the tracking force is set to the maximum allowable (2.6g).  It seems other people seemed to have good sound using the recommended tracking force (around 2.4g)

 

Is this normal/OK?  I've checked and the point where the stylus runs across the record is level.

Glad that you have the Kiseki Purple Heart properly set up now. I had mine installed just over a year ago on an Ekos1. The VTF was set at 2.5g. No mis tracking or anything untoward. Took about 80- 100hr to reach it best. A few months back I had The Karousel/ ARadikal installed and the TT returned with the cartridge set at 1.9g, much lower than the recommendation 2.3-2.6g. Queried that with the installer, who explained that he set the cartridge based on the right rake angle (VTA) and that was the weight that provided that. Thought that was an interesting approach. There were many other changes with the TT and it all sounded good!??‍♂️. Last week when my PU7Ti arm was installed., Mark Döhmann set it at 2.3g! Again several other changes were made so difficult to comment on what VTF was best. 
No mis tracking, buzz or other mal functions at any of those weights.

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52 minutes ago, vivianbl said:

A few months back I had The Karousel/ ARadikal installed and the TT returned with the cartridge set at 1.9g, much lower than the recommendation 2.3-2.6g. Queried that with the installer, who explained that he set the cartridge based on the right rake angle (VTA) and that was the weight that provided that.

 

Sure, the rake angle changes with VTF - but also with VTA!

 

Unfortunately, your experience illustrates that most Linn techs have almost no experience with anything outside of Linn.  :(

 

52 minutes ago, vivianbl said:

 

Last week when my PU7Ti arm was installed., Mark Döhmann set it at 2.3g! Again several other changes were made so difficult to comment on what VTF was best. 
 

 

I'm sure what Mark set it at is correct.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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10 minutes ago, andyr said:

Sure, the rake angle changes with VTF - but also with VTA!

 

1 hour ago, vivianbl said:

Queried that with the installer, who explained that he set the cartridge based on the right rake angle (VTA) and that was the weight that provided that. Thought that was an interesting approach.

 

It is one that I have heard of and considered.  Basically I think it relates to the stylus deflection due to to vtf, and getting the mechanics of the generator in the sweet spot.     Assuming correct engineering when designed and made, this combined with the stated correct static compliance should coincide with suitable trackability and best sound from the cartridge.  However, nothing in this world is perfect, and this one seems a long way out.  Could the suspension be faulty (set too soft)?

Edited by aussievintage
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It’s interesting. 
 

The way we ended up tuning VTF was by ear and blind testing. When it reached the right point and then changing weight, and reverting back to the same spot gave me comfort we got it right. 

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43 minutes ago, qik_shift said:

It’s interesting. 
 

The way we ended up tuning VTF was by ear and blind testing. When it reached the right point and then changing weight, and reverting back to the same spot gave me comfort we got it right. 

Would be good to hear feedback about load changes as well, when you get a chance.
Note that you have used the 800 Ohm loading. Because I use a Audion Step up Transformer I only have the Choice of 1:10 or 1:20. According to Andy the 1:10 is equivalent to 420 Ohm max.  
When I recently tried out another Phono pre, I tried 100, 200, 450, 500, 800, 900 and 1000. I settled on 200 with that phono pre. I don’t fully understand all the variables that determine the best loading, but I too judged it by ear!??‍♂️

Edited by vivianbl
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5 minutes ago, vivianbl said:

Would be good to hear feedback about load changes as well, when you get a chance.

 

Indeed it would, @qik_shift!  :)

 

5 minutes ago, vivianbl said:


Note that you have used the 800 Ohm loading. Because I use a Audion Step up Transformer I only have the Choice of 1:10 or 1:20. According to Andy the 1:10 is equivalent to 420 Ohm max.

 

Not quite!  A 1:10 turns ratio delivers a load of 47000 / 10x10  =  470 ohms.  1:20 delivers 47000 / 20x20  =  118 ohms.

 

5 minutes ago, vivianbl said:


When I recently tried out another Phono pre, I tried 100, 200, 450, 500, 800, 900 and 1000. I settled on 200 with that phono pre. I don’t fully understand all the variables that determine the best loading, but I too judged it by ear!??‍♂️

 

 

Judging by ear is the way to do it, vbl!  :thumb:

 

If you are interested, I could lend you a head amp to experiment with.  (You would plug this into the MM input of your Audion phono stage.)

 

I would bring along load plugs from 200 ohms (which was what you preferred in another phono stage) to 4700 ohms (nearest standard value to 100x coil impedance).

 

PM me if you're interested.

 

Andy

 

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@andyr @vivianbl  here's a post for you.

 

OK So I've spent a few hours playing with loading.  I think I'll be incorporating Toto IV (mostly Rosanna) in my dreams tonight :D.

 

The quick answer - 650 ohms is what worked for me.

 

IMG_6513.thumb.jpeg.fee82774ed0386c4faefcd69d570e172.jpeg

 

Here's my notes on some of the key ranges:

100-200 ohms - louder, but thrashy and flat

200-400 ohms - weird stuff happened.  Most definitely not right - almost could hear noise that would be best described as interference

500 ohms - The start of the turning point.  Sweetness starts being introduced into the sound.  Lots of detail but still every so slightly thrashy

650 ohms = yay!  I got warmth with detail and a great sound stage.  Sounds more open and airy.  It's the setting that literally put a smile on my face

800 - 1000 ohms - The range where I found the least difference in the sound profile between the low and high number within this range.  Going to 1,000 seemed to make the sound more warm, but losing some detail.  Slight (ever so slight) degradation of the soundstage, but still nice and airy.

 

Hope that's useful!

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10 hours ago, qik_shift said:

@andyr @vivianbl  here's a post for you.

 

OK So I've spent a few hours playing with loading.  I think I'll be incorporating Toto IV (mostly Rosanna) in my dreams tonight :D.

 

The quick answer - 650 ohms is what worked for me.

 

IMG_6513.thumb.jpeg.fee82774ed0386c4faefcd69d570e172.jpeg

 

Here's my notes on some of the key ranges:

100-200 ohms - louder, but thrashy and flat

200-400 ohms - weird stuff happened.  Most definitely not right - almost could hear noise that would be best described as interference

500 ohms - The start of the turning point.  Sweetness starts being introduced into the sound.  Lots of detail but still every so slightly thrashy

650 ohms = yay!  I got warmth with detail and a great sound stage.  Sounds more open and airy.  It's the setting that literally put a smile on my face

800 - 1000 ohms - The range where I found the least difference in the sound profile between the low and high number within this range.  Going to 1,000 seemed to make the sound more warm, but losing some detail.  Slight (ever so slight) degradation of the soundstage, but still nice and airy.

 

Hope that's useful!

 

Very interesting - and very good rotary switch setup, for loading!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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10 hours ago, qik_shift said:

@andyr @vivianbl  here's a post for you.

 

OK So I've spent a few hours playing with loading.  I think I'll be incorporating Toto IV (mostly Rosanna) in my dreams tonight :D.

 

The quick answer - 650 ohms is what worked for me.

 

IMG_6513.thumb.jpeg.fee82774ed0386c4faefcd69d570e172.jpeg

 

Here's my notes on some of the key ranges:

100-200 ohms - louder, but thrashy and flat

200-400 ohms - weird stuff happened.  Most definitely not right - almost could hear noise that would be best described as interference

500 ohms - The start of the turning point.  Sweetness starts being introduced into the sound.  Lots of detail but still every so slightly thrashy

650 ohms = yay!  I got warmth with detail and a great sound stage.  Sounds more open and airy.  It's the setting that literally put a smile on my face

800 - 1000 ohms - The range where I found the least difference in the sound profile between the low and high number within this range.  Going to 1,000 seemed to make the sound more warm, but losing some detail.  Slight (ever so slight) degradation of the soundstage, but still nice and airy.

 

Hope that's useful!


Thanks for that report. Really interesting.

I had the opportunity to try out the same PS Audio Stellar Phono Pre in my system with the Kiseki Purple Heart during the lockdown period. The Pre had a great feature set, that made these sort of experiments easy.  My findings were different in that I found the “best” sound at 200 Ohm. I had also tried 100, 200, 450, 500, 800 and 1000. The higher level results seemed to be the same as yours, but the lower levels not.
On the VTL Ultimate the “best” was 470  Ohm.  

Don’t understand why the difference in “best” sounding settings with different equipment. Does the arm, cable or turntable have anything to do with it???‍♂️

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The more I seem to learn about turntable tuning - it seems the most common message I can find among the experienced is to trust your ears.

 

Don't get me wrong - 200 ohms sounded pretty good too.  I'm just being super nitpicky :).  For some music I could imagine 200 ohms might be better.  In addition to the custom MC loading at the rear of the phono stage, there are some presets that I can easily select from my chair so I'll continue to occasionally switch to 200 and see how it sounds.

 

IMG_6515.thumb.jpeg.92bfc41587730ba48c2b49c22373a8bb.jpeg

 

Some people seem to suggest that yes the cables can also have an impact on loading, as they have a resistance of their own.  I'm far from a specialist in this area though.

 

I've been so happy with the phono stage TBH.  Sound quality seems amazing to me - also very highly rated by a person I keenly follow - Michael Fremer.  I can also now convert my P6 to a mono deck and run a MM cart and plug it into the same phono stage too.

 

 

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2 hours ago, qik_shift said:

For some music I could imagine 200 ohms might be better.  In addition to the custom MC loading at the rear of the phono stage, there are some presets that I can easily select from my chair so I'll continue to occasionally switch to 200 and see how it sounds.

 

IMG_6515.thumb.jpeg.92bfc41587730ba48c2b49c22373a8bb.jpeg

 

I

Yes, features and facilities on the Stellar really great. All it needed was custom loading dials on the remote Control as well. ?

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21 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

@vivianbl @qik_shift psaudio stellar looks like a great phono. Been following the development and definitely been an interesting one a fully discreet phono with good loading flexibility. It is definitely on my list to try. What other have you compared it to btw?

For me - I had a cheaper rega phono stage which wasn't even in the same ballpark.  I have heard a Cyrus phono stage on a P6 with a 2M cart, and personally I felt the PS Audio Stellar was a long way advanced in terms of SQ. 

 

I did refer to a person's opinion I respect in the vinyl industry to sway my decision.  That's Michael Fremer.  If you google 'review of stellar phono Michael Fremer', a relevant result should appear.  Michael typically reviews products that are in the uber expensive range.  Based on your signature, a review is good entertainment, so at minimum you have that :)

 

In this case he compared the Stellar with another phono stage 20 times its price.  The more expensive unit ended up winning the battle - but not by much at all.  Michael couldn't pick the shortcomings of the Stellar until he did a back to back and that's saying something because he hooked up the unit to a system that's worth a house.  When my retailer bought a unit for me to try at home, I knew I was on a winner.  Definitely please have a listen to a unit if you're interested.

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