qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 I recently organised somebody to fit a Kiseki Purple Heart to my Rega P6. Thought I would test the limits of this turntable/arm and purchase a cart that I could use on my next TT purchase. What I have found is that I get distortion in one of the channels unless the tracking force is set to the maximum allowable (2.6g). It seems other people seemed to have good sound using the recommended tracking force (around 2.4g) Is this normal/OK? I've checked and the point where the stylus runs across the record is level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Is it level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 37 minutes ago, qik_shift said: What I have found is that I get distortion in one of the channels unless the tracking force is set to the maximum allowable (2.6g). It seems other people seemed to have good sound using the recommended tracking force (around 2.4g) Is this normal/OK? Have you got the correct bias setting? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, andyr said: Have you got the correct bias setting? Andy As I've organised somebody to set it up for me, I'm not entirely sure. I've checked that the record is dead level along the arc of the stylus. From doing a blank record check, towards the end of a record, it slowly makes its way to the spindle (which from what I understand it tells me bias isn't "majorly" off. Actually I'm noticing mild distortion in the left speaker even with the maximum tracking force. It seems if I go another ~0.1g the distortion goes away but I'm reluctant to do this for obvious reasons. I wonder if the only way to cure my OCD in this space is to have somebody else verify that everything has been set OK by looking at the unit in my home to make sure all is OK in my current setting. Edited November 11, 2020 by qik_shift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, Billy Shears said: Is it level? Yes along the arc of the stylus it's spot on. In other places of the record it's juuuust out but I assume I should focus on the arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 Interesting - I've just moved antiskate levels lower (a lot lower just as an experiment) and the sound improves significantly. But then the stylus moves rapidly towards the spindle on a blank record. Arrgh. Just returned it back to exactly where it was just for now, as I assume the rapid movement to the spindle means there is too much bias towards the inner groove and would cause long term damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiofeline Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Is the cart's compliance suitable for the arm's mass? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 30 minutes ago, qik_shift said: But then the stylus moves rapidly towards the spindle on a blank record. Arrgh. Just returned it back to exactly where it was just for now, as I assume the rapid movement to the spindle means there is too much bias Actually no, a blank record is not really a valid test of bias setting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 10 hours ago, audiofeline said: Is the cart's compliance suitable for the arm's mass? My calculations show compliance is better with this cart than my previous one and there were no distortion issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 9 hours ago, aussievintage said: Actually no, a blank record is not really a valid test of bias setting. I can see the can of worms topic has appeared What I couldn't find on SNA was the method I should be following then. My understanding is that the blank record method should be used to roughly get you there and then you should fine tune by ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekyboy Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, qik_shift said: Interesting - I've just moved antiskate levels lower (a lot lower just as an experiment) and the sound improves significantly. But then the stylus moves rapidly towards the spindle on a blank record. Arrgh. Just returned it back to exactly where it was just for now, as I assume the rapid movement to the spindle means there is too much bias towards the inner groove and would cause long term damage. Hello Chris, Are you trying different records for this distortion test? Are you sure the distortion is not coming from the record? It does sound like a bias/antiskate issue, provided the cartridge is A1 and not worn or damaged. Do you have a test record, such as the Hi Fi News Test Record, which will allow you to set your bias/antiskate correctly? If the stylus is moving quickly toward the inner grooves/spindle/label that does not mean too much bias applied, it means not enough bias applied!! Re set your bias/antiskate and can you check the azimuth is correct too? Cheers, Keith Edited November 11, 2020 by cheekyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 41 minutes ago, qik_shift said: I can see the can of worms topic has appeared What I couldn't find on SNA was the method I should be following then. My understanding is that the blank record method should be used to roughly get you there and then you should fine tune by ear. Does your anti-skate system have a rough calibration method? Some have numbers that you set approx. equal to tracking force, others have notches that are about 1/2 gram each. I use this to set it approximately - usually setting it a little light. Then I tune by ear. I don't find the blank record helpful as it usually results in a very different setting to the one that sounds right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 50 minutes ago, cheekyboy said: Hello Chris, Are you trying different records for this distortion test? Are you sure the distortion is not coming from the record? It does sound like a bias/antiskate issue, provided the cartridge is A1 and not worn or damaged. Do you have a test record, such as the Hi Fi News Test Record, which will allow you to set your bias/antiskate correctly? If the stylus is moving quickly toward the inner grooves/spindle/label that does not mean too much bias applied, it means not enough bias applied!! Re set your bias/antiskate and can you check the azimuth is correct too? Cheers, Keith Hey Keith, Yeah I'm quite confident distortion isn't coming from the record - it's happening to about 30% of my whole record collection and this issue didn't occur with my previous cartridge. It's a brand new item, so unlikely worn or damaged. I purchased an analogue productions test record earlier this week and it should be delivered today. I'll let you know how that goes. I have no fozgometer to check azimuth unfortunately. Any other ways I can check azimuth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekyboy Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, qik_shift said: Hey Keith, Yeah I'm quite confident distortion isn't coming from the record - it's happening to about 30% of my whole record collection and this issue didn't occur with my previous cartridge. It's a brand new item, so unlikely worn or damaged. I purchased an analogue productions test record earlier this week and it should be delivered today. I'll let you know how that goes. I have no fozgometer to check azimuth unfortunately. Any other ways I can check azimuth? Hello Chris, I don't know about a fozgometer [sounds like something from outer space] but you could use a mirror. I'm guessing your tonearm is an RB600 or RB700 and I'm not sure they allow you to adjust azimuth at the arm, but you could do this at the headshell. Does the Analogue Productions test record have a bias test track/s? The more you increase VTF the more you'll increase bias because it is a dynamic function. Using a blank LP takes away that dynamic because the stylus is not in contact with a record groove and adjusting that way could cause you to over compensate anway. Probably the easiest way to check your bias is to observe the stylus as the last track finishes on the record and as it moves to the lead out area at the end of the record. If the stylus moves slowly inward toward the spindle/label, I would say your bias setting is pretty well spot on. Cheers, Keith Edited November 11, 2020 by cheekyboy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, qik_shift said: I have no fozgometer to check azimuth unfortunately. Any other ways I can check azimuth? The one good use for a CD, Chris - use the shiny side as a mirror! (Put the CD on a thin LP, shiny side up ... and then, with the stylus on the CD, look front on at the headshell. You are hoping to see the cantilever - and its reflection - appear as a straight line.) Now that lockdown is over, as you're in Melbourne ... howsabout I come over and have a look at your setup? I'll bring my tools. Andy Edited November 12, 2020 by andyr 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, andyr said: The one good use for a CD, Chris - use the shiny side as a mirror! (Put the CD on a thin LP, shiny side up ... and then, with the stylus on the CD, look front on at the headshell. You are hoping to see the cantilever - and its reflection - appear as a straight line.) Now that lockdown is over, as you're in Melbourne ... howsabout I come over and have a look at your setup? I'll bring my tools. Andy That is a very nice offer Andy as I am sure you will be able to ascertain if its a setup or cartridge issue. Bring one of your phono's over as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 2 hours ago, andyr said: The one good use for a CD, Chris - use the shiny side as a mirror! (Put the CD on a thin LP, shiny side up ... and then, with the stylus on the CD, look front on at the headshell. You are hoping to see the cantilever - and its reflection - appear as a straight line.) Now that lockdown is over, as you're in Melbourne ... howsabout I come over and have a look at your setup? I'll bring my tools. Andy Hey Andy, Bahahahaha! That makes for a lot of mirrors in my collection. Pity because I'll break them all if I look at them. I don't have the greatest eyes but it does look dead straight to me. I find it interesting that the diamond doesn't look symmetrical - slightly lopsided. Photo below - taking one was also a challenge when phone so magnified. I have decided to give my retailer and turntable tuner an opportunity to look first. They have offered to come to my house in person to remedy the situation - so there's some great service there. Your generous offer is amazing Andy. This is why I still invest time and energy into forums - people like you make this place such a great one to be. I'll let you know how things go after this Saturday. Cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, qik_shift said: Hey Andy, Bahahahaha! That makes for a lot of mirrors in my collection. Pity because I'll break them all if I look at them. I don't have the greatest eyes but it does look dead straight to me. I find it interesting that the diamond doesn't look symmetrical - slightly lopsided. Photo below - taking one was also a challenge when phone so magnified. Yes, pretty damn straight to me. Whether or not the diamond stylus is set 'true' on the cantilever is of course the key issue. A Fozgometer is a not-too-expensive method of determining this - but only useful if your arm allows azimuth adjustment. But the software-based tools are the ultimate method for setting optimal azimuth ... unfortunately, they involve considerable (well, 'considerable' to me, as an old retired gent ) coin. 12 minutes ago, qik_shift said: I have decided to give my retailer and turntable tuner an opportunity to look first. They have offered to come to my house in person to remedy the situation - so there's some great service there. Indeed, great service. Make sure they listen to what you are hearing first - ie. before they start fiddling. I'm interested to know the retailer and TT tuner; if that is Melbourne Audio and my mate Rick Powell is involved ... I am confident he will be able to uncover your issue. 12 minutes ago, qik_shift said: Your generous offer is amazing Andy. This is why I still invest time and energy into forums - people like you make this place such a great one to be. I'll let you know how things go after this Saturday. Cheers, Chris I would certainly like to know your outcome, Chris. On a related - but independent - issue ... what have you set your phono stage loading at, for your Purple Heart? The specs recommend a loading of 400 ohms - but that is actually the minimum loading! The specs also tell me the coil impedance is 42 ohms - so I would expect the optimum loading will be anywhere between 420 ohms (10x) and 4200 ohms (100x). Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tremain Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Hi Chris, A buzz in the Left spk is caused by too much bias jamming the stylus against the outside of the groove which is the RH channel so the bias is not even on both channels. As far as i can tell as photo is not square on it all looks good. I may not worry too much if TW. 2.4 or 2.6g for a Rega Arm as few people actually achieve dead accurate measure - but i would have liked to know the Minumin setting to get full perspective. Apply bias till buzz stops in Left chan and it will now be correct. How ever if you end up with a Faint buzz in in both channels this indicates you need a very slight increase in TW. ( Try to carry this out at 2.4g ) If the final TW. setting is not very close to recommended this means your arm does not track this cartridge or your sample is not one of the better ones - so dont get caught up in any double talk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 3 hours ago, andyr said: Yes, pretty damn straight to me. Whether or not the diamond stylus is set 'true' on the cantilever is of course the key issue. A Fozgometer is a not-too-expensive method of determining this - but only useful if your arm allows azimuth adjustment. But the software-based tools are the ultimate method for setting optimal azimuth ... unfortunately, they involve considerable (well, 'considerable' to me, as an old retired gent ) coin. Indeed, great service. Make sure they listen to what you are hearing first - ie. before they start fiddling. I'm interested to know the retailer and TT tuner; if that is Melbourne Audio and my mate Rick Powell is involved ... I am confident he will be able to uncover your issue. I would certainly like to know your outcome, Chris. On a related - but independent - issue ... what have you set your phono stage loading at, for your Purple Heart? The specs recommend a loading of 400 ohms - but that is actually the minimum loading! The specs also tell me the coil impedance is 42 ohms - so I would expect the optimum loading will be anywhere between 420 ohms (10x) and 4200 ohms (100x). Andy Hey Andy, Sorry work and dinner got in the way of me responding promptly. Yep no azimuth adjustment, but nothing to stop some shimming activity if needed I suppose to achieve the right outcome. Retailer is HeyNow HiFi. So far been super happy with Geoff. Even the lengths he is going to get himself and the TT tuner into my home on short notice is another good sign. The tuner's name wasn't Rick Powell. I will keep Rick's name in my memory banks for the future if needed though for sure. I have set both L & R channels to 800 ohms which is apparently the sweet spot for most people. I can crank up to 1,000 ohms if needed - definitely not 4,200! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, qik_shift said: Hey Andy, Sorry work and dinner got in the way of me responding promptly. Absolutely NP, Chris. Quote I have set both L & R channels to 800 ohms which is apparently the sweet spot for most people. I can crank up to 1,000 ohms if needed - definitely not 4,200! Try a swap between those two options ... and please tell me which you prefer. (There's not much difference between them - so you may find it hard to decide.) Andy Edited November 12, 2020 by andyr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) error! Edited November 12, 2020 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Richard Tremain said: Hi Chris, A buzz in the Left spk is caused by too much bias jamming the stylus against the outside of the groove which is the RH channel so the bias is not even on both channels. As far as i can tell as photo is not square on it all looks good. I may not worry too much if TW. 2.4 or 2.6g for a Rega Arm as few people actually achieve dead accurate measure - but i would have liked to know the Minumin setting to get full perspective. Apply bias till buzz stops in Left chan and it will now be correct. How ever if you end up with a Faint buzz in in both channels this indicates you need a very slight increase in TW. ( Try to carry this out at 2.4g ) If the final TW. setting is not very close to recommended this means your arm does not track this cartridge or your sample is not one of the better ones - so dont get caught up in any double talk. Yeah that's the strange thing - others seem to run around 2.4 without problem. Sound gets better as I reach 2.6 - but seems to need more. When I try applying more bias - the sound seems to get worse. I know there's too much at this point because when dropping the needle at the end of the record, it fairly quickly makes its way back to the music. Strangely reducing bias significantly results in the best sound. It's possible that there's a cartridge alignment issue too I suppose...... Edited November 12, 2020 by qik_shift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qik_shift Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, andyr said: Try a swap between those two options ... and please tell me which you prefer. (There's not much difference between them - so you may find it hard to decide.) Will give it a go on Saturday. Now not keen to play vinyl as I could be causing damage. Will report back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Just now, qik_shift said: Will give it a go on Saturday. Now not keen to play vinyl as I could be causing damage. Will report back Understood! Thanks, Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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