Disappointing Guitar Solo's

[sir sanders zingmore]

I was listening to some Led Zep the other day and it struck me that the guitar solo on Heartbreaker is really very ordinary.

Have a listen … it comes in around 2 minutes… C'mon Jimmy, you were just being lazy, you can do much better

 

 

 

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

Not sure if it really counts as a disappointing solo, but the lead-in to The Hollies "Long Cool Woman" has so much promise and then the song just turns into a bit of a boring, sub-par wannabe Creedance chug afterwards it kills me every time.

[bryansamui]

I was the guitar player in a Led zeppelin Covers outfit (Still have my Sunburst LP & Doubleneck) and played that Heartbreaker Solo note for note every weekend... Yes it is sloppy but it's part of the Page Vibe. He doesn't use much saturation overdrive/gain in this sound which is difficult for players. Years later players used much more gain/ saturation  which aids fluidity greatly.

Probably his solo that blows my mind is  the Live 'No Quarter solo ' off The Song Remains the Same...  NOT off the remastered album as they cut the solo in half.  On the original album. For those of you who are musically inclined, the solo is in D minor over only the 'one' Chord ( which makes it even more Challenging/Amazing) 

[sir sanders zingmore]

27 minutes ago, bryansamui said:

I was the guitar player in a Led zeppelin Covers outfit (Still have my Sunburst LP & Doubleneck) and played that Heartbreaker Solo note for note every weekend... Yes it is sloppy but it's part of the Page Vibe. He doesn't use much saturation overdrive/gain in this sound which is difficult for players. Years later players used much more gain/ saturation  which aids fluidity greatly.

Probably his solo that blows my mind is  the Live 'No Quarter solo ' off The Song Remains the Same...  NOT off the remastered album as they cut the solo in half.  On the original album. For those of you who are musically inclined, the solo is in D minor over only the 'one' Chord ( which makes it even more Challenging/Amazing) 

 

That is such a cool photo 

[bryansamui]

6 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

That is such a cool photo 

Haha.. Natasha really struggled with the Gibson Doubleneck(EDS1275) for that shot. They're a Pig to play actually . Obscenely  heavy , cumbersome and ill balanced. The 12 string neck is set too high, the 6 string neck  is set too low  lol ..  Everything is wrong about them. Jimmy Page had one custom made for a few songs where he needed to switch (live) between a 6 and a 12 string. They were in the Gibson Catalogue 1963-1968 but not when Page needed one hence his was a Custom Job in 1971... Mine is a 1997 and weighs  6KG (too heavy) .. The Les Paul is about 3.8kg which is still 'Not Light'

[bryansamui]

As a guitar player, one can either like Jimmy Pages playing or not like it as in any music...  However his brilliance as as player lies more in his ' choice of notes', textures, phrasing, and musical ideas within his playing rather than  '' accuracy and technical precision' executing those ideas... A bit like say; a Vincent Van Gogh painting which is blurred and rough around the edges but says a lot.. At the other extreme there are painters that are so pinpoint accurate you would be hard pressed to tell their painting from a photograph but some people would say their work  lacked soul. 

 

An analogy we all understand : Some of our Audio Gear on a technical /specs level is  Not Great.. NOS Dacs, SET amps etc but Oh! Can they make music!.  JPage is like that. Technically a little rough but musical.. However that's just how I hear it.... Everyones experience is different. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by bryansamui

[t_mike]

I believe E. Van H. has been quoted as saying something like "c'mon Jimmy, tune your guitar."

[bryansamui]

11 hours ago, t_mike said:

I believe E. Van H. has been quoted as saying something like "c'mon Jimmy, tune your guitar."

Jimmy Page from around 1978 - late 80's was just horrible... Strung out on Heroin big time, he could barely string 2 notes together... I always said (about myself) "I've never played as well as Jimmy... but I've never played as bad.".. 

That said, his playing on the the the soundtrack & film in 1973 (The Song Remains the Same) is simply phenomenal.  Those guitar parts do not sit under the fingers nicely so are incredibly  difficult to execute... Page downplays that performance saying "It was just an average show"..  I disagree, seeing much footage and believe those 3 nights at Madison Square Garden were Magical.

[gator2310]

On 26/10/2020 at 4:05 PM, bryansamui said:

As a guitar player, one can either like Jimmy Pages playing or not like it as in any music...  However his brilliance as as player lies more in his ' choice of notes', textures, phrasing, and musical ideas within his playing rather than  '' accuracy and technical precision' executing those ideas... A bit like say; a Vincent Van Gogh painting which is blurred and rough around the edges but says a lot.. At the other extreme there are painters that are so pinpoint accurate you would be hard pressed to tell their painting from a photograph but some people would say their work  lacked soul. 

 

An analogy we all understand : Some of our Audio Gear on a technical /specs level is  Not Great.. NOS Dacs, SET amps etc but Oh! Can they make music!.  JPage is like that. Technically a little rough but musical.. However that's just how I hear it.... Everyones experience is different. 

Absolutely (great post and great pic too!). This is a bit of a pet subject of mine so I apologise in advance for the rant.

I dont think Page could ever be called lazy - I do think it took him a little while to really hit his straps with the band as they transformed from a blues based hard rock outfit to an ostensibly blues/folk/rock/prog ensemble - so much relied on him for the harmony, composition and groove in the band.

Unlike so many guitarists in the genre who just float over the band. Jimmy's playing was always about the song - with solos being part of the flow of the tune. As much as I love EVH - I heard VH live in the 80's and it was all about Eddie. There was almost no interplay and energy between EVH and AVH - Eddie sounded amazing but the rhythm section sounded tired and unresponsive. VH sound great on those early records of course - but there's a whole lot of production going on too.

Led Zep always sound real on the records - even with the layering of guitar parts - the production isnt polishing the surfaces - its highlighting the diversity of textures.

Page was always loose - but the whole band was,  including Bonham. 

I think Jimmy and Bonham are symbiotic - and Jimmy wrote/played parts that showed a real insight into what makes a drummer play better - and conversely Jimmy sounded better because of Bonham. When the Levee Breaks is a great example of guitar, bass and drums as  suggesting one instrument.  I guess the other thing is that the three players in the band, Bonham , Page and Jones were all very good at expanding the sound of a three piece rhythm section - even live. Bonham's sound is huge - not because he was just thumping the drums.  He listened to jazz drummers who produce real tone and dynamic from the drums. Page played sessions from the age of 16 with rhythm sections and string sections and developed an understanding of arrangement that was well beyond the sensibility of most other rock guitarists of his time. The different guitars both acoustic and electric played a critical role in the sound of the band and the way he combined those sounds on the recordings was also unique. Jones was a mobile entity who could change roles depending on the other two.

In a genre which isnt renowned for showing a great deal of sensibility - beneath Zep's energy is a real intelligence - and Jimmy is the cerebral cortex of that.

 

Now in terms of disappointing guitar solos - Walter Becker's solo on Steely Dan's"Josie" is the first one that springs to mind for me. I gather there were several contributions from players like Larry Carlton and Jay Graydon. Fagan wasnt happy with any of them so I guess it was the best of a bad lot. Walter could be a really tasty player - especially in his later years but the guitar tone here is thin and disinterested while the phrasing is just limp.

Josie has such an intense groove - the guitar doubling the bass part really effective and then the solo sounds like a lame duck.  SD were masters of getting great players to transform the energy in a tune - (Wayne Shorter and Steve Gadd on Aja) - but they were also unafraid of musical irony so maybe that was the intention.

 

[bryansamui]

4 minutes ago, gator2310 said:

Absolutely (great post and great pic too!). This is a bit of a pet subject of mine so I apologise in advance for the rant.

I dont think Page could ever be called lazy - I do think it took him a little while to really hit his straps with the band as they transformed from a blues based hard rock outfit to an ostensibly blues/folk/rock/prog ensemble - so much relied on him for the harmony, composition and groove in the band.

Unlike so many guitarists in the genre who just float over the band. Jimmy's playing was always about the song - with solos being part of the flow of the tune. As much as I love EVH - I heard VH live in the 80's and it was all about Eddie. There was almost no interplay and energy between EVH and AVH - Eddie sounded amazing but the rhythm section sounded tired and unresponsive. VH sound great on those early records of course - but there's a whole lot of production going on too.

Led Zep always sound real on the records - even with the layering of guitar parts - the production isnt polishing the surfaces - its highlighting the diversity of textures.

Page was always loose - but the whole band was,  including Bonham. 

I think Jimmy and Bonham are symbiotic - and Jimmy wrote/played parts that showed a real insight into what makes a drummer play better - and conversely Jimmy sounded better because of Bonham. When the Levee Breaks is a great example of guitar, bass and drums as  suggesting one instrument.  I guess the other thing is that the three players in the band, Bonham , Page and Jones were all very good at expanding the sound of a three piece rhythm section - even live. Bonham's sound is huge - not because he was just thumping the drums.  He listened to jazz drummers who produce real tone and dynamic from the drums. Page played sessions from the age of 16 with rhythm sections and string sections and developed an understanding of arrangement that was well beyond the sensibility of most other rock guitarists of his time. The different guitars both acoustic and electric played a critical role in the sound of the band and the way he combined those sounds on the recordings was also unique. Jones was a mobile entity who could change roles depending on the other two.

In a genre which isnt renowned for showing a great deal of sensibility - beneath Zep's energy is a real intelligence - and Jimmy is the cerebral cortex of that.

 

Now in terms of disappointing guitar solos - Walter Becker's solo on Steely Dan's"Josie" is the first one that springs to mind for me. I gather there were several contributions from players like Larry Carlton and Jay Graydon. Fagan wasnt happy with any of them so I guess it was the best of a bad lot. Walter could be a really tasty player - especially in his later years but the guitar tone here is thin and disinterested while the phrasing is just limp.

Josie has such an intense groove - the guitar doubling the bass part really effective and then the solo sounds like a lame duck.  SD were masters of getting great players to transform the energy in a tune - (Wayne Shorter and Steve Gadd on Aja) - but they were also unafraid of musical irony so maybe that was the intention.

 

Jimmy Page (live) would often imperfectly 'stumble or stutter' playing a phrase. He would then repeat that ' imperfection'  2 or 3 times... Now the listener is in 2 minds (Maybe he meant to play it like that!!) So brilliant with those textures.. I spent hundreds of hours copying those ' mistakes' or Micro Nauances to get our bands ' Song Remains the Same' Versions as close as possible. I learned the Violin Bow segment. Those bows cost me a fair bit. I got about 3 shows out of 1 bow. 

[bryansamui]

48 minutes ago, gator2310 said:

Absolutely (great post and great pic too!). This is a bit of a pet subject of mine so I apologise in advance for the rant.

I dont think Page could ever be called lazy - I do think it took him a little while to really hit his straps with the band as they transformed from a blues based hard rock outfit to an ostensibly blues/folk/rock/prog ensemble - so much relied on him for the harmony, composition and groove in the band.

Unlike so many guitarists in the genre who just float over the band. Jimmy's playing was always about the song - with solos being part of the flow of the tune. As much as I love EVH - I heard VH live in the 80's and it was all about Eddie. There was almost no interplay and energy between EVH and AVH - Eddie sounded amazing but the rhythm section sounded tired and unresponsive. VH sound great on those early records of course - but there's a whole lot of production going on too.

Led Zep always sound real on the records - even with the layering of guitar parts - the production isnt polishing the surfaces - its highlighting the diversity of textures.

Page was always loose - but the whole band was,  including Bonham. 

I think Jimmy and Bonham are symbiotic - and Jimmy wrote/played parts that showed a real insight into what makes a drummer play better - and conversely Jimmy sounded better because of Bonham. When the Levee Breaks is a great example of guitar, bass and drums as  suggesting one instrument.  I guess the other thing is that the three players in the band, Bonham , Page and Jones were all very good at expanding the sound of a three piece rhythm section - even live. Bonham's sound is huge - not because he was just thumping the drums.  He listened to jazz drummers who produce real tone and dynamic from the drums. Page played sessions from the age of 16 with rhythm sections and string sections and developed an understanding of arrangement that was well beyond the sensibility of most other rock guitarists of his time. The different guitars both acoustic and electric played a critical role in the sound of the band and the way he combined those sounds on the recordings was also unique. Jones was a mobile entity who could change roles depending on the other two.

In a genre which isnt renowned for showing a great deal of sensibility - beneath Zep's energy is a real intelligence - and Jimmy is the cerebral cortex of that.

 

Now in terms of disappointing guitar solos - Walter Becker's solo on Steely Dan's"Josie" is the first one that springs to mind for me. I gather there were several contributions from players like Larry Carlton and Jay Graydon. Fagan wasnt happy with any of them so I guess it was the best of a bad lot. Walter could be a really tasty player - especially in his later years but the guitar tone here is thin and disinterested while the phrasing is just limp.

Josie has such an intense groove - the guitar doubling the bass part really effective and then the solo sounds like a lame duck.  SD were masters of getting great players to transform the energy in a tune - (Wayne Shorter and Steve Gadd on Aja) - but they were also unafraid of musical irony so maybe that was the intention.

 

You're spot on Gator,  Zeppelin was loose. A bit like Jazz! .. Bonham and Jones never new where Jimmy Page was going next! Poor buggers. It worked on telepathy half the time haha.. 

[gator2310]

39 minutes ago, bryansamui said:

Jimmy Page (live) would often imperfectly 'stumble or stutter' playing a phrase. He would then repeat that ' imperfection'  2 or 3 times... Now the listener is in 2 minds (Maybe he meant to play it like that!!) So brilliant with those textures.. I spent hundreds of hours copying those ' mistakes' or Micro Nauances to get our bands ' Song Remains the Same' Versions as close as possible. I learned the Violin Bow segment. Those bows cost me a fair bit. I got about 3 shows out of 1 bow. 

Yep. He was an improviser. Even the stock solos had variations and were capable of going in another direction. Ritchie Blackmore was the same. They backed themselves live to do something special - and occasionally fell flat. Some of those iconic solos on record were so well conceived it would have been really difficult to go to the next level by doing something different - and yet both of those guys did just that. I think the spirit of the great blues players (and Hendrix!) was still alive in that generation of players.

[bryansamui]

12 minutes ago, gator2310 said:

Yep. He was an improviser. Even the stock solos had variations and were capable of going in another direction. Ritchie Blackmore was the same. They backed themselves live to do something special - and occasionally fell flat. Some of those iconic solos on record were so well conceived it would have been really difficult to go to the next level by doing something different - and yet both of those guys did just that. I think the spirit of the great blues players (and Hendrix!) was still alive in that generation of players.

Don't get me started on Ritchie Blackmore.. Another favourite of mine. 'Made in Japan' Wow! His tone got worse (trebly) as he got older.. Must have been going deaf lol.. My Strat (pictured) for when I'm in that Blackmore mood. Whitey next to it is a Jake E Lee Replica. 

[gator2310]

13 hours ago, bryansamui said:

Don't get me started on Ritchie Blackmore.. Another favourite of mine. 'Made in Japan' Wow! His tone got worse (trebly) as he got older.. Must have been going deaf lol.. My Strat (pictured) for when I'm in that Blackmore mood. Whitey next to it is a Jake E Lee Replica. 

Yeah it definitely got brighter. He seemed to make his way from the front pickup to the back pickup with a few stops in between over the years. But he was one of the few who could get away with an o/d middle pickup or split coil sound in a solo (Burn).

I heard them with Tommy Bolan in 1975?? - also pretty icepick through the forehead tone...great player though - jeepers.

[bryansamui]

7 hours ago, gator2310 said:

Yeah it definitely got brighter. He seemed to make his way from the front pickup to the back pickup with a few stops in between over the years. But he was one of the few who could get away with an o/d middle pickup or split coil sound in a solo (Burn).

I heard them with Tommy Bolan in 1975?? - also pretty icepick through the forehead tone...great player though - jeepers.

Tommy Bolan was great.. Steve Morse albeit a Monster Player, was Never a good fit for Purple.. Wrong Wrong.. May as well put Andre Segovia or George Benson in there lol! BTW, Blackmore always used Front or Back pickup... The Middle was a Dummy and not connected. So no position 2, 3or 4. No Dire Straits or Clapton tones on his Strat.. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by bryansamui

[gator2310]

1 hour ago, bryansamui said:

Tommy Bolan was great.. Steve Morse albeit a Monster Player, was Never a good fit for Purple.. Wrong Wrong.. May as well put Andre Segovia or George Benson in there lol! BTW, Blackmore always used Front or Back pickup... The Middle was a Dummy and not connected. So no position 2, 3or 4. No Dire Straits or Clapton tones on his Strat.. 

Interesting - I can hear a definite quack on the 'improvised' part of the Burn solo. Must have been some voicing from elsewhere...he used to use the preamp out of an old tape machine form memory which I think he used to darken the sound of the bridge p/u?

Edited October 30, 2020 by gator2310

[Batty]

I saw Purple in '75 at the Hammersmith Odean, didn't rate Tommy Bolin at all, all speed and not much style IMO.

[bryansamui]

7 hours ago, Batty said:

I saw Purple in '75 at the Hammersmith Odean, didn't rate Tommy Bolin at all, all speed and not much style IMO.

I never saw Tommy Bolan live. Saw Ritchie Blackmore/Purple in Auckland 1984 ( Perfect Stranger Tour) and his tone was horrible.' "Ice pick in the ear" treble. Thin and bright!.. Not the nice tone he had in 1972.. Could've been the soundman on the desk fault? Who'd know 

[gator2310]

I saw Purple in Christchurch - Bolin looked terrible - white as a sheet. But there were a couple of ripper solos. Not as organised as Blackmore but I loved the contour of his solos - always inventive and unpredictable - the tone buzzy and penetrating. (I think he loved a few lines too.....).

About 2 or 3 years later I picked up a copy of Billy Cobham's 'Spectrum' which I think is Bolin at his best especially on the tune Quadrant with Jan Hammer and Lee Sklar.