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7.1.2 vs 5.1.4?


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On 31/10/2020 at 2:43 PM, Monster11 said:

Hi guys, really appreciate the input.
Have an update, I have decided to go with 7.1.4. Still using the in-wall Focal 300IW6 for both side and now rear surrounds, which I will locate at about 1.2M of the floor. The front Atmos are in-ceiling Focal 300ICLCR and the rear Atmos will be Focal in-ceiling 300ICW6 as I am limited for space above the ceiling at the rear of the room. All these will be running from the amp in a Denon AVR-X6700H. 
The front sound stage will stay running from my existing pre and amp. 
Kinda made sense to get it all done at the same time. And the Focal 900 SR would be in the way if I moved them down to 1.2M as there is a cocktail gaming machine at the back of the room. The 300IW6  makes that go away. 

Once it’s all done, I will sell the Focal 900 SR. 

 

I'll suggesting wiring up for 7 base channels + 4 top minimum, even 6 points on top And 2 subwoofer cable runs.

Gives you a lot more flexibility..

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55 minutes ago, lufc001 said:

@Monster11

How did you go with all this. I’m in the process of upgrading to the Epson 4k projector and need a new AVR as my current one only does 1080p.

 

I’m also using Focal Aria’s (Focal Aria 926’s, CC900 centre and SR 900’s as rears). I plan on getting the 300ICW6 for the x.x.4 atmos channels and am interested to know how the AVR is coping.

 

I’ve been recommended the AVR-X3700H but worried it wont have enough power as my current AVR-3312 has 165w per channel and I think the X3700H works out to approx 105 per channel (think this is just 2 channel though)

 

Also I’m getting a pool in a few weeks and wanted to wire  the pool area with speakers using the inbuilt HEOS.

 

If I go for Atmos 5.1.4 the X3700H limits me in the sense I’ll have to get another amp to power the pool area speakers.

 

This then got me thinking towards getting the X6700H but its a huge jump in price. Saying that been quoted $5k which seems reasonable??

 

The other option is to get the X3700H and use my AVR3312 as a power amp? 

 

 

Hey, yes been meaning to update. I have all the speakers and 6700 in, and it’s working great. Very happy with the result. I ended up using 300ICW6 for all 4 atmos speakers as the 300ICLCR just wouldn’t fit in the ceiling. 


Having all the speakers in the correct locations makes a massive difference. 7.1 over 5.1 is probably the biggest difference as there is a awful lot of 7.1 content out there, including gaming and this adds massively to the immersion factor. When there is atmos content, the over head effects works very well, with starting in the rear and moving all the way to the front channels. 


The 6700 drives all the surrounds and atmos very well, and doesn’t seem to be lacking in detail or weight of sound. So I can highly recommend that. I had a 4200 in for a while, waiting for the 6700 to arrive. It was ok, but the 6700 certainly made a sizeable improvement. Taking that into account, I think the 3700 would be too small. Keep in mind there is a 4700 in the range too, with more power, but still only 9 amps. If you can get the 6700, that will give you flexibility, but it’s easy to say when its your money. 

 

With the hind sight I have now, running the system with the 4200 for a few weeks, which only allowed 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 only, and playing around with both, I would be doing 7.1.2 over 5.1.4, for my room. With the 6700 I do have the luxury of 7.1.4, so a very happy camper. 
 

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1 hour ago, petetherock said:

 

I'll suggesting wiring up for 7 base channels + 4 top minimum, even 6 points on top And 2 subwoofer cable runs.

Gives you a lot more flexibility..


This, just do this.  So much easier to do it all at one time. 

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Thanks @Monster11

 

My current HT room is 3.85m wide x 5m long so not sure if big enough for 7.1.2

 

Also i've got windows on one side and no cavity walls on the other so that would be the other stumbling block. As that is the case 5.1.4 might be my only option.

 

I think i'm probably also going to drop my SR900's which I use as rears lower so they are at listening height.

 

Seating position is currently on the back wall on a raised timber step. Havent been really able to find out the optiomal location for the SR900's.

 

Good that it sounds like the 6700 is doing the business for you, sounds like it might be the best option for me too.

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1 hour ago, lufc001 said:

Thanks @Monster11

 

My current HT room is 3.85m wide x 5m long so not sure if big enough for 7.1.2

 

Also i've got windows on one side and no cavity walls on the other so that would be the other stumbling block. As that is the case 5.1.4 might be my only option.

 

I think i'm probably also going to drop my SR900's which I use as rears lower so they are at listening height.

 

Seating position is currently on the back wall on a raised timber step. Havent been really able to find out the optiomal location for the SR900's.

 

Good that it sounds like the 6700 is doing the business for you, sounds like it might be the best option for me too.

 

So my room is only slightly bigger than yours at 4M wide, 5.5M long and 2.7M high. 

 

I was lucky as I had walls with cavity at 90 degrees and behind the listen position, so I could place the ear level speakers in the right location. I really think that having the surrounds at 90 degrees really is a very good idea if you can place them there, and certainly a massive improvement over having then on the rear wall.

 

I have seen surrounds being placed in the ceiling right at the outer edges of the room, and then atmos in their normal position, like 750mm in from the side walls. Not sure how effective this would be, as I havent heard it. 

 

Also getting your seating position off the back wall is a great idea if you can. as the bass will be much smoother.  

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Actually might be easier to provide the layout, excuse my terrible visio skills. As they say, a picture tells a thousand words. The subwoofer is in the right rear of the room, as it cant go anywhere else. 

 

@lufc001 maybe throw up a quick diagram of the room and we can throw around a few ideas?

HT.JPG

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So here is my plan, started to do something fancy in Sketchup then couldn't be bothered as it was taking too much time.

 

I do have conduit run in the walls either side of the couch however if i moved the SR900's there would that improve things and also would i put them at listening height or a bit higher. So far they are about 500mm higher on the back wall.

 

Im also upgrading to the Epson 4k TW9400 projector to replace my Panasonic 8000. I've also got a 130" cinemascope screen.

projector-plan.jpg

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18 minutes ago, lufc001 said:

So here is my plan, started to do something fancy in Sketchup then couldn't be bothered as it was taking too much time.

 

I do have conduit run in the walls either side of the couch however if i moved the SR900's there would that improve things and also would i put them at listening height or a bit higher. So far they are about 500mm higher on the back wall.

 

Im also upgrading to the Epson 4k TW9400 projector to replace my Panasonic 8000. I've also got a 130" cinemascope screen.

projector-plan.jpg


Cool, I take it those windows on the right hand wall are floor to ceiling?

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Ah ok, so you should be able to run something like SR900 under the window on the right and then on the wall on the left. And then another pair on SR900 on the rear wall.

 

If you can get your lounge off the rear wall that will certainly improve the smoothness of the bass. And run the ear level speakers at ear level. 
 

For atmos, your room is big enough for .4. 

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I’d love to move the couch off the wall but its on a raised timber step. Would be a fair bit of work to remove as we have skirting and carper on it.

 

Cant deny it would probably improve the experience though.

 

The other option of course is we eventually plan to put seats on the ground level at either side of the steps which could work.

 

I think at this stage I’m still heading towards 5.1.4 as the SR900’s in a 7.1.4 mounted on the real and side walls would be too close together.

 

Where the conduit is for the sides is only 250mm off the corner of the room.

Edited by lufc001
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Yeah cool, understand. I would be moving the SR900 to the side walls, and then doing .4 atmos in that room. Without the distance from the Lounge to the rear wall, I don’t think you will get much impact from having them there. 

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33 minutes ago, Monster11 said:

Yeah cool, understand. I would be moving the SR900 to the side walls, and then doing .4 atmos in that room. Without the distance from the Lounge to the rear wall, I don’t think you will get much impact from having them there. 

You mean not much impact having them on the rear walls or on the side walls?

 

They currently are about 250mm from the rear of the couch and about 500mm above head

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17 hours ago, lufc001 said:

You mean not much impact having them on the rear walls or on the side walls?

 

They currently are about 250mm from the rear of the couch and about 500mm above head

 

Sorry, I meant you will have better impact if the SR900 are on the side walls, it will give presence to the surround part of the audio track. I found when my surrounds where high on the rear wall they weren't effective. Now that I have surrounds at 90 degrees, they offer much more in location and presence. 

 

With your lounge being so close to the rear wall, there basically isnt much distance between the seating positions and the speakers. So they cant build a decent sound stage and if the are sitting in the left seat, there left surround is right next to the speaker. Having a loud speaker right next to your head isnt really ideal, as the rest of the speakers are some distance away. 

 

A surround speaker is meant to be left and right of the listener, and the rear surrounds are meant to be behind the listener.

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Thanks for the explanation, that was something I’ve been struggling with. I had the conduits there as I was originally going to get book shelves but they suddenly weren’t available in the colour i chose so had to go with the SR900’s

 

Now to get some more speaker wire and work out moving the SR900’s.

 

I’m thinking maybe it would be worthwhile eventually getting additional seats in front of the step and hopefully should make it all better.

 

Once i get the new PJ and AVR I’ll get the local shop (West Coast Hifi) to tune it all in and hopefully should improve things no end.

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Yeah cool, I think you need to sort out the seating before the speaker position. And think about the primary seating position, being in either the front or rear row, as this will change the location of the side surrounds. 
I reckon if you put a row in front, you will sitting in those most of the time, and if that’s the case, layout the speakers for that row, with the side surrounds at 90 degrees to the front row, of just behind. 
Also need to be thinking about the height of the head rests in relation to the speaker height, make sure that you can seat every speak from each seat, so don’t mount them too low. Also you will need to see all of the screen from the rear seats, so don’t about the height of the front row seats. 
With that front row I place, having rear surrounds on the back wall makes a lot of sense, as does .4 for atmos. 

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Guest niterida
3 hours ago, lufc001 said:

That said have a read of this thread. Basically says to put them where i have them now ??‍♂️

 

https://www.avforums.com/threads/ideal-placement-of-bipole-surround-speakers.1817142/

 

So much conflicting information out there!

Don't use bipoles - that is old way of thinking.

Unless you use them as surrounds (not rear surrounds) BETWEEN 2 rows of seating so that each driver of the bipole is facing at each row of seating.

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4 hours ago, lufc001 said:

That said have a read of this thread. Basically says to put them where i have them now ??‍♂️

 

https://www.avforums.com/threads/ideal-placement-of-bipole-surround-speakers.1817142/

 

So much conflicting information out there!

Yeah for sure, 100% on conflicting info.

 

 I try to stick with the manufacture recommendations on this kinda thing. If you look at the Aria 900 user manual, linked below, page 28 it states;

”Do not place surround speakers too far behind the listening point, as this will lead to degraded sound perception from them. Aim for placement along the side walls for more enveloping sound effects”

 

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.focal.fr/files/shared/catalog/document/notice_aria900.pdf 


the Dolby Atmos Home Theatre Install Guide has them left and right of the listening position.

 

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf


And that with what I experienced with my system, listening to 5.1 audio with my SR900 in a similar position to yours, and then using a in wall at 90 degrees to my head, there is no way I am going back. 
 

If you do go 7.1 for the ear level speakers, you will need something on the side wall anyway.

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30 minutes ago, niterida said:

Don't use bipoles - that is old way of thinking.

Unless you use them as surrounds (not rear surrounds) BETWEEN 2 rows of seating so that each driver of the bipole is facing at each row of seating.

 
Yeah spot on the SR900 that he has would be ideal for 2 rows of seats being used as side surrounds.  

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So... sell the SR900's for some nice Focal In-walls looks to be the way to go then?

 

Thinking 2 x Focal 300IW6 for the SL and SR then 4 x 300ICW6 for the in ceiling speakers?

Edited by lufc001
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7 hours ago, lufc001 said:

So... sell the SR900's for some nice Focal In-walls looks to be the way to go then?

 

Thinking 2 x Focal 300IW6 for the SL and SR then 4 x 300ICW6 for the in ceiling speakers?

 

You can always test placement of the left and right surrounds with what you have and compare it to them being on the rear wall. Try moving the SR900 to the left and right of the seat position, recalibrate the receiver and have a listen. You could sit the speakers on top of something (a box) to get them to approximate ear level and try it. Listen to something that has a good surround track and compare before and after. That will tell you if you are on the right track. If you think that its better move them there, if not leave them as is.

 

I wouldn't be replacing the SR900 at this stage, as they are a fantastic surround speaker, and especially if you are going to be putting in two rows of seating, as @niterida mentioned. 

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Yeah thats actually a good idea, I’ll just go buy some more speaker wire as I’ve ran out. I think having them at ear level will be an improvement nonetheless. 

 

Currently they are firing out above ear level by 500mm.

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4 hours ago, lufc001 said:

Yeah thats actually a good idea, I’ll just go buy some more speaker wire as I’ve ran out. I think having them at ear level will be an improvement nonetheless. 

 

Currently they are firing out above ear level by 500mm.


Yeah cool, try as many places as you can. Nothing wrong with experimenting ?

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