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JICO HE to a JICO SAS ?


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I currentley use a Shure v15 type 4 cart with a  JICO HE stylus which I bought sometime ago as I couldn't afford the extra dollars for a SAS  stylus at the time.

Just wondering if it would be worth going up to the SAS stylus now that I can afford it?

Has anyone gone from the HE to the SAS -  not sure that the extra dollars would make much difference between the HE and the SAS.

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I don't have a V15, but in principle, I would say go for the finer shaped stylus - the SAS.    Every step towards these high end styluses has sounded better to me, and elliptical through special elliptical shapes (hyperelliptical) are smaller steps than the step to microline, microridge etc.  These SAS is in the latter class, so I would expect it to be very much better as well.

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On 19/10/2020 at 4:42 PM, aussievintage said:

I don't have a V15, but in principle, I would say go for the finer shaped stylus - the SAS.    Every step towards these high end styluses has sounded better to me, and elliptical through special elliptical shapes (hyperelliptical) are smaller steps than the step to microline, microridge etc.  These SAS is in the latter class, so I would expect it to be very much better as well.

Microline and Microridge are the same cut, actually there are also a SAS

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7 hours ago, Grumpy said:

I think the SAS 4 is about $350.

Thanks, just curious if a retip might have been an option, it is similar money..

Chris

Edited by cafe latte
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I have the V15 Type IV with the SAS on it where do you live ? I enjoy it very much I also have a HE but I don’t listen to it anymore since buying the SAS, is it a $350 worthwhile purchase only your ears can tell you that 🤔

8D07BC61-8842-4CC5-BCE3-FC5A8B328432.jpeg

E871A955-2ED3-4B84-AEEE-094FD1614ECB.jpeg

Edited by Crystara
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4 hours ago, Crystara said:

I have the V15 Type IV with the SAS on it where do you live ? I enjoy it very much I also have a HE but I don’t listen to it anymore since buying the SAS, is it a $350 worthwhile purchase only your ears can tell you that 🤔

8D07BC61-8842-4CC5-BCE3-FC5A8B328432.jpeg

E871A955-2ED3-4B84-AEEE-094FD1614ECB.jpeg

So, in your opinion the SAS is how much better than the HE ? Did you notice much difference?

Thanks for your input

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4 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

So, in your opinion the SAS is how much better than the HE ? Did you notice much difference?

Thanks for your input

SAS is Jicos name for a microridge which is the best profile there is, it has a very narrow large contact area. Die to this large contact area both the stylus and the vinyl will wear less and the long thin contact surface will read grooves never touched my a stylus before, the thin too will be very detailed and with much lower inner groove distortion, so yes you should hear a difference.

Chris

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1 hour ago, Grumpy said:

So, in your opinion the SAS is how much better than the HE ? Did you notice much difference?

Thanks for your input

How do I explain this to you, I am glad I upgraded, $350 happier, in my listening environment, Yes money well spent for me 

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I have a Technics EPC205 with 3 stylus OEM HE, Jico SAS Boron and Jico SAS ruby. The SAS/B is slightly better than the OEM, the SAS/R is in another league, this is one of the best cartridges I have heard. So the SAS/R is definitely worth the extra $$ IMO as long as your system has the resolution to make the most of it. I know it's not the V15 but the stylus upgrades would similar.

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Gary, would you like to borrow my V15 type III to see if you like the sound?

 

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34 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

I have a Technics EPC205 with 3 stylus OEM HE, Jico SAS Boron and Jico SAS ruby. The SAS/B is slightly better than the OEM, the SAS/R is in another league, this is one of the best cartridges I have heard. So the SAS/R is definitely worth the extra $$ IMO as long as your system has the resolution to make the most of it. I know it's not the V15 but the stylus upgrades would similar.

Sas ruby is much higher moving mass to boron, the boron should sound better.

Chris

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23 hours ago, cafe latte said:

Sas ruby is much higher moving mass to boron, the boron should sound better.

Chris

According to Kenn from Jico the tapered ruby has lower moving mass than the solid boron, and this would explain the additional detail the SAS/R has over the SAS/B.

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1 hour ago, Warren Jones said:

According to Kenn from Jico the tapered ruby has lower moving mass than the solid boron, and this would explain the additional detail the SAS/R has over the SAS/B.

Sorry this is not true Kenn is talking through his butt check densities of born and ruby, it is why VdH concentrates on boron as much lighter. Only a few companies making born cantilevers all are tapered as far as I am aware and all are lighter than ruby.

Chris

Edited by cafe latte
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Boron 2.37g per cubic cm and ruby is 4.05g much much heavier, even aluminium is lighter. The solid boron rod is very very thin as so stiff it can be, ruby is stiff but also very fragile so cant be too thin and 45% heavier than boron.

Chris

Edited by cafe latte
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This is copied from a question and answer session from VdH, few people have been doing this longer than him..

 

26 Q: What produces a better sound quality: an aluminum cantilever, a boron cantilever or one made of sapphire or even diamond ? A: An alternative question is: Which material is stiffer? Aluminum, boron, sapphire or diamond? Yes, in that same order the stiffness is also getting higher. And stiffer means a better mechanical pulse transfer from the stylus to the coil system. So your first choice would be to look straight away for a cartridge with a diamond cantilever. But... (next to the price) there is another property that also counts: the weight. Heavy materials are more difficult to accelerate around. From all possible options the 300 micron diameter boron cantilever is the best. Already relatively very stiff but also very light. And the dynamic rigidity gets better when the total length is kept as short as possible. Actually I am working on a new model with a total boron cantilever length of just 3.5 mm. Still not as short as the famous Dynavector cartridges with diamond cantilevers of 1.7 mm length. But the way the Dynavectors were built is different to the units I intend to produce. I.e. different designs.

Ruby weight is around the same as sapphire.. It is far heavier than Boron..

Chris

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1 hour ago, Warren Jones said:

https://www.jico-stylus.com/sas/

 

I have had a VDH re-tipped EPC100 with boron CL and my Jico SAS/B was far superior, I was not impressed with the VDH re-tip considering how much it cost.

MR is a better profile, the VdH is a sharp edge, but will widen with wear, the MR (ML) wont. All I was getting at is VdH knows his stuff, he has been doing this for decades, but yes he is expensive, but suppose one of the greats of carts doing a retip himself you are going to pay for it for sure, his carts are like 10k up so not surprised it was expensive and not surprised the MR (sas) is better either.

Chris

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I have two Grace Level II carts which may provide a similar comparison to the SAS/HE argument......a BR/MR (boron/microridge) and an RC (rare ceramic/hyper-elliptical). The BR/MR is definitely better on detail but the RC(w/HE) is probably more emotionally engaging overall. I am running it at the moment and the bass is slightly better than the MR and detail is still excellent.....but having said that, on certain recordings the BR/MR is truly stunning and a definite step up from the RC. My take is the RC is better for rock and the BR/MR excels with jazzier, less aggressive stuff where aggressive dynamics are of less priority.

 

If you're mainly into rock, the SAS may well not show a marked improvement worthy of the extra spend. Jazz and Classical on the other hand.....:)

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Looking at the difference between the SAS/B and SAS/R. The SAS/B has a bonded diamond whereas the SAS/R is a nude diamond, this is most likely the reason the SAS/R has lower moving mass. I can say the SAS/R on an EPC205 is wonderful and detail is wow.

 

Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" I can hear someone pick up guitar from a stand at the very beginning of the track.

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2 hours ago, Warren Jones said:

Looking at the difference between the SAS/B and SAS/R. The SAS/B has a bonded diamond whereas the SAS/R is a nude diamond, this is most likely the reason the SAS/R has lower moving mass. I can say the SAS/R on an EPC205 is wonderful and detail is wow.

 

Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" I can hear someone pick up guitar from a stand at the very beginning of the track.

No the sas boron is not bonded it is nude and it has a lower moving mass. Glue around the tip does not mean bonded, bonded is a metal rod normally brass that a tiny diamond is glued to and all this is glued to the boron. The sas is nude. The sas cut is Mr and as far as I am aware no manufacture does thus cut bonded.

Chris

Edited by cafe latte
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1 minute ago, Warren Jones said:

These are my EPC205 stylus. The SAS/R has far greater detail than the SAS/B

 

 

SAS/B

 

SAS-B.jpg.f87b9e7c0864c030bee88c28aab24483.jpg

 

SAS/R

 

SAS-R.jpg.45df46f918d6224fed3d269c4434cd2c.jpg

Both are nude, the stylus on the boron is much shorter than on the ruby normally almost half as long but boron has more glue. The boron is much lower moving mass, 40 less. I think any perception of better detail is perception bias.

Chris

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2 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

Both are nude, the stylus on the boron is much shorter than on the ruby normally almost half as long but boron has more glue. The boron is much lower moving mass, 40 less. I think any perception of better detail is perception bias.

Chris

It is actually impossible for a stylus 40% higher moving mass to have better detail, both are nude and the boron is much lighter and both are so stiff it makes no difference.

Chris

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So why is there glue on the end of the boron CL when the diamond is nude?

 

My EPC205 boron and ruby CL are the same length give or take, I know this from setting them up on the linear arm with a borescope. The OEM Technics Mk3 has a shorter CL.

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10 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

So why is there glue on the end of the boron CL when the diamond is nude?

 

To stop the diamond falling out of the cantilever after being pressed into it.

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49 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

Both are nude, the stylus on the boron is much shorter than on the ruby normally almost half as long but boron has more glue. The boron is much lower moving mass, 40 less. I think any perception of better detail is perception bias.

Chris

 

Moving mass or Movement Of Inertia is I=mr^2 where I = MOI, m=mass and r^2 is the mass distance from the pivot squared.

 

So the cantilever mass will have minimal effect on MOI. The greatest influence is the mass on the end of the CL and how far it is from the pivot. So stick a great blob of glue on the diamond and this will significantly increase MOI.

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19 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

To stop the diamond falling out of the cantilever after being pressed into it.

Boron is fragile and cracks so it cant have diamond pressed through a hole. A bonded tip is a very small diamond bit glued to a brass rod which is attached to the cantilever as the majority of the stylus. The boron stylus you have is just a diamond no brass rod glued to a "landing strip" this is not classed as bonded as the diamond is not bonded to the brass rod. The glue weighs next to nothing and is almost irrelevant re tip mass. Even the ruby and sapphire have glue just less and often at the rear face not the vinyl side. Believe me the double length stylus tip on the Ruby is heavier than the short boron one with more glue.

Chris 

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19 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

 

Moving mass or Movement Of Inertia is I=mr^2 where I = MOI, m=mass and r^2 is the mass distance from the pivot squared.

 

So the cantilever mass will have minimal effect on MOI. The greatest influence is the mass on the end of the CL and how far it is from the pivot. So stick a great blob of glue on the diamond and this will significantly increase MOI.

The glue is very light indeed as has a low density regardless low it looks and the diamond is far lighter on the boron. Look at the pics again and look at the very dense diamond  (much longer on ruby) poking out the back of the cantilever and the boron has a short diamond sitting on a flat surface and the glue is seriously light.

The cantilevers, you are trying to argue a cantilever that is 40% heavier has lower moving mass as the lighter one has a blob of very very light glue at the end with a shorter diamond (diamond is heavy as dense). There is a very good reason the best carts use boron and always have, yes you need a bit more glue but moving mass is way way less.

The boron is way less moving mass full stop, have a bit of a read around, you even thought the sas was bonded it is not you are making fundamental mistakes here. I see why as you have been misinformed and it is how it looks but I am trying to give you the facts.

Chris

Edited by cafe latte
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48 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

So why is there glue on the end of the boron CL when the diamond is nude?

 

My EPC205 boron and ruby CL are the same length give or take, I know this from setting them up on the linear arm with a borescope. The OEM Technics Mk3 has a shorter CL.

All diamond have glue ALL (I retip).

Chris

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Chris, can you fix a collapsed suspension on an Ortofon Quintet Bronze?

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1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

A bonded tip is a very small diamond bit glued to a brass rod which is attached to the cantilever as the majority of the stylus.

yep sure

 

1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

Boron is fragile and cracks so it cant have diamond pressed through a hole.

 

1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

The boron stylus you have is just a diamond no brass rod glued to a "landing strip"

 

So I stand corrected.  Even more reason for the glue though :) 

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18 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

yep sure

 

 

 

So I stand corrected.  Even more reason for the glue though :) 

Yes boron which I retip need a good amount of glue, but tip is smaller so it all evens out.

 

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58 minutes ago, Batty said:

Chris, can you fix a collapsed suspension on an Ortofon Quintet Bronze?

PM me depends on problem, yes probably.

Cheers

Chris

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I know we are way off topic but I thought I would do the measurements so anyone looking to purchase a SAS/R can see clearly they are superior to the SAS/B. As the diamond and suspension are identical the only difference is the Ruby CL and no glue (visible @ 100 x magnification) on the diamond.

 

Here are the measurements from an EPC205 with both a Jico SAS B and R. Measurement were done with CBS STR112 test LP, 1kHz squarewave.  Output is taken directly from the cartridge on the input of the phono preamp

 

The measurement confirm there is no perception bias and clearly show the SAS/ Ruby has a much faster rise time than the SAS/Boron. Bandwidth has a direct correlation to the rise time. Clearly the SAS/R has a wider bandwidth and higher frequency response than the SAS/B indicating lower moving mass.

 

Ruby rise time 16us

IMG_20201104_132308053.thumb.jpg.8ae2cdd1ec2121340514d344cde160d2.jpg

 

Boron rise time 24us

IMG_20201104_132142181.thumb.jpg.fc25cb7cc1e366b77467e441313e79dd.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Warren Jones said:

I know we are way off topic but I thought I would do the measurements so anyone looking to purchase a SAS/R can see clearly they are superior to the SAS/B. As the diamond and suspension are identical the only difference is the Ruby CL and no glue (visible @ 100 x magnification) on the diamond.

 

Here are the measurements from an EPC205 with both a Jico SAS B and R. Measurement were done with CBS STR112 test LP, 1kHz squarewave.  Output is taken directly from the cartridge on the input of the phono preamp

 

The measurement confirm there is no perception bias and clearly show the SAS/ Ruby has a much faster rise time than the SAS/Boron. Bandwidth has a direct correlation to the rise time. Clearly the SAS/R has a wider bandwidth and higher frequency response than the SAS/B indicating lower moving mass.

 

Ruby rise time 16us

IMG_20201104_132308053.thumb.jpg.8ae2cdd1ec2121340514d344cde160d2.jpg

 

Boron rise time 24us

IMG_20201104_132142181.thumb.jpg.fc25cb7cc1e366b77467e441313e79dd.jpg

 

Thank you, going to be purchasing the SAS / R once my EPC cart arrives and provided all is fine with it. Very intrigued to compare performance with MC cart. 

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