Grumpy Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I currentley use a Shure v15 type 4 cart with a JICO HE stylus which I bought sometime ago as I couldn't afford the extra dollars for a SAS stylus at the time. Just wondering if it would be worth going up to the SAS stylus now that I can afford it? Has anyone gone from the HE to the SAS - not sure that the extra dollars would make much difference between the HE and the SAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I don't have a V15, but in principle, I would say go for the finer shaped stylus - the SAS. Every step towards these high end styluses has sounded better to me, and elliptical through special elliptical shapes (hyperelliptical) are smaller steps than the step to microline, microridge etc. These SAS is in the latter class, so I would expect it to be very much better as well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batty Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 I have the neo SAS on my V15 type 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 On 19/10/2020 at 4:42 PM, aussievintage said: I don't have a V15, but in principle, I would say go for the finer shaped stylus - the SAS. Every step towards these high end styluses has sounded better to me, and elliptical through special elliptical shapes (hyperelliptical) are smaller steps than the step to microline, microridge etc. These SAS is in the latter class, so I would expect it to be very much better as well. Microline and Microridge are the same cut, actually there are also a SAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 How much is the upgrade? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batty Posted October 21, 2020 Share Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) About $200 US. https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/vn45he-sas-b/ boron cantilever I have this one, ruby cantilever. https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/vn35he-sas-r/ Edited October 21, 2020 by Batty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 14 hours ago, cafe latte said: How much is the upgrade? Chris I think the SAS 4 is about $350. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Grumpy said: I think the SAS 4 is about $350. Thanks, just curious if a retip might have been an option, it is similar money.. Chris Edited October 22, 2020 by cafe latte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crystara Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 (edited) I have the V15 Type IV with the SAS on it where do you live ? I enjoy it very much I also have a HE but I don’t listen to it anymore since buying the SAS, is it a $350 worthwhile purchase only your ears can tell you that Edited October 22, 2020 by Crystara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted October 23, 2020 Author Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Crystara said: I have the V15 Type IV with the SAS on it where do you live ? I enjoy it very much I also have a HE but I don’t listen to it anymore since buying the SAS, is it a $350 worthwhile purchase only your ears can tell you that So, in your opinion the SAS is how much better than the HE ? Did you notice much difference? Thanks for your input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Grumpy said: So, in your opinion the SAS is how much better than the HE ? Did you notice much difference? Thanks for your input SAS is Jicos name for a microridge which is the best profile there is, it has a very narrow large contact area. Die to this large contact area both the stylus and the vinyl will wear less and the long thin contact surface will read grooves never touched my a stylus before, the thin too will be very detailed and with much lower inner groove distortion, so yes you should hear a difference. Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crystara Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Grumpy said: So, in your opinion the SAS is how much better than the HE ? Did you notice much difference? Thanks for your input How do I explain this to you, I am glad I upgraded, $350 happier, in my listening environment, Yes money well spent for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Jones Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I have a Technics EPC205 with 3 stylus OEM HE, Jico SAS Boron and Jico SAS ruby. The SAS/B is slightly better than the OEM, the SAS/R is in another league, this is one of the best cartridges I have heard. So the SAS/R is definitely worth the extra $$ IMO as long as your system has the resolution to make the most of it. I know it's not the V15 but the stylus upgrades would similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batty Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Gary, would you like to borrow my V15 type III to see if you like the sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, Warren Jones said: I have a Technics EPC205 with 3 stylus OEM HE, Jico SAS Boron and Jico SAS ruby. The SAS/B is slightly better than the OEM, the SAS/R is in another league, this is one of the best cartridges I have heard. So the SAS/R is definitely worth the extra $$ IMO as long as your system has the resolution to make the most of it. I know it's not the V15 but the stylus upgrades would similar. Sas ruby is much higher moving mass to boron, the boron should sound better. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Jones Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 23 hours ago, cafe latte said: Sas ruby is much higher moving mass to boron, the boron should sound better. Chris According to Kenn from Jico the tapered ruby has lower moving mass than the solid boron, and this would explain the additional detail the SAS/R has over the SAS/B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Warren Jones said: According to Kenn from Jico the tapered ruby has lower moving mass than the solid boron, and this would explain the additional detail the SAS/R has over the SAS/B. Sorry this is not true Kenn is talking through his butt check densities of born and ruby, it is why VdH concentrates on boron as much lighter. Only a few companies making born cantilevers all are tapered as far as I am aware and all are lighter than ruby. Chris Edited October 24, 2020 by cafe latte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) Boron 2.37g per cubic cm and ruby is 4.05g much much heavier, even aluminium is lighter. The solid boron rod is very very thin as so stiff it can be, ruby is stiff but also very fragile so cant be too thin and 45% heavier than boron. Chris Edited October 24, 2020 by cafe latte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 This is copied from a question and answer session from VdH, few people have been doing this longer than him.. 26 Q: What produces a better sound quality: an aluminum cantilever, a boron cantilever or one made of sapphire or even diamond ? A: An alternative question is: Which material is stiffer? Aluminum, boron, sapphire or diamond? Yes, in that same order the stiffness is also getting higher. And stiffer means a better mechanical pulse transfer from the stylus to the coil system. So your first choice would be to look straight away for a cartridge with a diamond cantilever. But... (next to the price) there is another property that also counts: the weight. Heavy materials are more difficult to accelerate around. From all possible options the 300 micron diameter boron cantilever is the best. Already relatively very stiff but also very light. And the dynamic rigidity gets better when the total length is kept as short as possible. Actually I am working on a new model with a total boron cantilever length of just 3.5 mm. Still not as short as the famous Dynavector cartridges with diamond cantilevers of 1.7 mm length. But the way the Dynavectors were built is different to the units I intend to produce. I.e. different designs. Ruby weight is around the same as sapphire.. It is far heavier than Boron.. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Jones Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) https://www.jico-stylus.com/sas/ I have had a VDH re-tipped EPC100 with boron CL and my Jico SAS/B was far superior, I was not impressed with the VDH re-tip considering how much it cost. Edited October 24, 2020 by Warren Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Warren Jones said: https://www.jico-stylus.com/sas/ I have had a VDH re-tipped EPC100 with boron CL and my Jico SAS/B was far superior, I was not impressed with the VDH re-tip considering how much it cost. MR is a better profile, the VdH is a sharp edge, but will widen with wear, the MR (ML) wont. All I was getting at is VdH knows his stuff, he has been doing this for decades, but yes he is expensive, but suppose one of the greats of carts doing a retip himself you are going to pay for it for sure, his carts are like 10k up so not surprised it was expensive and not surprised the MR (sas) is better either. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevoz Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I have two Grace Level II carts which may provide a similar comparison to the SAS/HE argument......a BR/MR (boron/microridge) and an RC (rare ceramic/hyper-elliptical). The BR/MR is definitely better on detail but the RC(w/HE) is probably more emotionally engaging overall. I am running it at the moment and the bass is slightly better than the MR and detail is still excellent.....but having said that, on certain recordings the BR/MR is truly stunning and a definite step up from the RC. My take is the RC is better for rock and the BR/MR excels with jazzier, less aggressive stuff where aggressive dynamics are of less priority. If you're mainly into rock, the SAS may well not show a marked improvement worthy of the extra spend. Jazz and Classical on the other hand..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Jones Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Looking at the difference between the SAS/B and SAS/R. The SAS/B has a bonded diamond whereas the SAS/R is a nude diamond, this is most likely the reason the SAS/R has lower moving mass. I can say the SAS/R on an EPC205 is wonderful and detail is wow. Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" I can hear someone pick up guitar from a stand at the very beginning of the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Warren Jones said: Looking at the difference between the SAS/B and SAS/R. The SAS/B has a bonded diamond whereas the SAS/R is a nude diamond, this is most likely the reason the SAS/R has lower moving mass. I can say the SAS/R on an EPC205 is wonderful and detail is wow. Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" I can hear someone pick up guitar from a stand at the very beginning of the track. No the sas boron is not bonded it is nude and it has a lower moving mass. Glue around the tip does not mean bonded, bonded is a metal rod normally brass that a tiny diamond is glued to and all this is glued to the boron. The sas is nude. The sas cut is Mr and as far as I am aware no manufacture does thus cut bonded. Chris Edited October 29, 2020 by cafe latte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Jones Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 These are my EPC205 stylus. The SAS/R has far greater detail than the SAS/B SAS/B SAS/R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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