Old CD players vs Modern - value?

[Lansche plasma guy]

On 8/10/2020 at 11:31 PM, Rob McHugh said:

I should also have explained the rest of my chain, which is a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and an SPL Phonitor XE Headphone amp. I have hand made interconnects and Nordost power cables. My cans are HD800 modded, 650, 600, 575, Focal Utopias, Audeze LCD-3’s with Danacable Lazuli Reference cables. 
The CD6006 goes to the DAC with a Nordost Blue Heaven Coax.

I guess I was looking to upgrade the transport to match the rest of the kit but perhaps the DAC is doing the heavy lifting?

My experience has been that the transport makes as big (or almost as big) a difference in the sound of cd than the dac.  Your dac is pretty good and your headphones are very revealing (HD800 modded and Utopia) so you will hear the difference of a better transport.  Your handmade cables may be the weak link also or they may be stellar.  I don't think there are too many new "affordable to even quite expensive" that would hold a candle to some of the better old school transports that were designed purely for Cd.  My experience with HD800 with various types of mods were super revealing and system matching was very important meaning that there may not be a clear recommendation transport wise i could make without hearing your exact setup.  You might have to borrow a few different units to see what flavour suits your system.  The LCD3 has a totally different signature to the HD800 and Utopia and would probably work best with a very different transport solution.   At any rate, if i was to guess i would think that it would be well worthwhile to play with some different transports which should pretty easily beat something like a  CD6006 used as a transport.

 

LPG

[Lansche plasma guy]

15 hours ago, dcathro said:

Transports, contrary to what many people expect, have as big or bigger impact on the sound quality as the DAC.

 

Modern "computer" transports are very poor sounding compared with the old Philips transports. By reputation, the older the transport, the better they sound. However, there are very few working machines around with a CDM0, CDM1, or CDM2, and the mechs are impossible to replace. The Philips CDM4 mechanisms were made in mass from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, in huge volumes for the mass market. They were incredibly robust, with very low failure rates over decades of use. 

 

I have been using CD players based around the CDM4 and the TDA1541A for the past 15 years, and to my ears, nothing comes close for less than the price of a European car.  A CDM4 based transport will be hard to beat, and replacement mechanisms are easily found.

 

Another option that some people swear by are the Teac VRDS mechanisms. 

Haha!  i didn't read the entire thread.  If i had i wouldn't needed to have written what i wrote after reading your message David.  I said pretty much the same thing.

 

The only thing i would add to this is:

 

CDMO - Can't be used as a transport.  It was used in the earliest 14 bit players.

CDM1 based players.  Great place to start and they last pretty much forever with the glass zeiss lasers and big hall effect motors and full metal mechanisms.  When you read how these are built and loot at one you assume they are top of the hill but many people think the CDM4 plastic mech with the hall effect motor doesn't look as impressive but sounds better.

CDM2.  Super unreliable so best to avoid these.

CD pro 2 linear.  Some people like (along with the other linear vam 12 mech) and they are newer but not as reliable as the older swing arm units and although they read tracks much faster generally don't sound as good.

 

VRDS - Can be amazing but depends on your system.  And they are getting very tricky to fix.  Finding lasers is very hard and getting very expensive.  Have a totally different sound to the swingarm units.

 

CEC TL series using the Sanyo mechs.  Can also be good to excellent depending on the model.  Not necessarily better than the above transports though.

 

Just because the unit your looking at may have one of the highly regarded units above in it doesnt mean it will sound good because the non transport only units usually have non optimum power supplies for the transport side of things and may have lots of crap getting in the way of the sound.  

 

To throw up another can of worms.  The enclosure the mechanism is housed in makes almost as much of a difference to the sound of the transport as the transport mechanism itself.

 

LPG

 

 

[bryansamui]

I once owned ( not now regrettably) a 1995 model Californian Audio Labs ( CAL) Aria 3  Tubed CD player with an older Burr Brown PCM 58 Chip. Wow what a sound! .. Golden Sweet and let me dance with the musicians in the room..My late model Metrum DAC ($2000)albeit really nice isn't as good I don't think. 

[Guest DrSK]

Can I ask why anyone would want to own a CD player?

 

It is transport plus internal DAC that has to be manually loaded and involves handling a scratchable individual disc each time. And the player mechanisms always wear out. 

 

Compared to say my 500 or so CDs and FLAC album downloads accessed via Roon streamed to a decent DAC. All of which is accessed in seconds and sorted by genre, artist etc. And can also be routed to any other room in the house if it has some type of streamer even if the quality is lower than my main system.

 

I only view CDs as often a cheap way to buy music second hand and as a hard copy backup you put in storage. 

[Guest Old Man Rubber]

44 minutes ago, DrSK said:

Can I ask why anyone would want to own a CD player?

 

It is transport plus internal DAC that has to be manually loaded and involves handling a scratchable individual disc each time. And the player mechanisms always wear out. 

 

Compared to say my 500 or so CDs and FLAC album downloads accessed via Roon streamed to a decent DAC. All of which is accessed in seconds and sorted by genre, artist etc. And can also be routed to any other room in the house if it has some type of streamer even if the quality is lower than my main system.

 

I only view CDs as often a cheap way to buy music second hand and as a hard copy backup you put in storage. 

For some of the same reasons I like vinyl - the cover art was never as impressive but some of the booklets in the golden age of CD were comprehensive or cool in their own way (big fold-out ones, or stapled booklets including the lyrics, the musicians etc or the digipacks that unfortunately are not terribly durable).  CDs might be scratchable but most of them are fixable too if the damage is limited to the sound side - a bit of fine plastic polish is all most need to be read successfully and even toothpaste can be used in a pinch.

 

I did go through a period of ripping them for convenience but found the process so tedious I generally let other (ahem) people do that for me.

 

The downsides for me aren't the convenience (it's already inconvenient to store / find / play them) it's more that they were treated so badly by their original owners that a lot end up so damaged they will never play again.  Floating around in gloveboxes or on the floor mean a lot of 2nd hand ones are scratched on the label side and unfixable/unplayable

 

CDs for me slow things down, gives me a disincentive to pick and choose tracks and really appreciate an album if the artist had the intention of making it a single-listen experience rather than just a few hits and a lot of dross.  Plus your brain has a kind of music-muscle-memory and if the first time you heard something was on CD, it always sounds a bit weird to hear it on some other format.  I don't own any real hi-fi CD players (I use a sony DVD player as my main CD player and use the DACs in it too!) but it sounds like CDs sounded like, something that I found was hard to replicate with ripped/streaming setups.

 

 

[Lansche plasma guy]

1 hour ago, DrSK said:

Can I ask why anyone would want to own a CD player?

 

It is transport plus internal DAC that has to be manually loaded and involves handling a scratchable individual disc each time. And the player mechanisms always wear out. 

 

Compared to say my 500 or so CDs and FLAC album downloads accessed via Roon streamed to a decent DAC. All of which is accessed in seconds and sorted by genre, artist etc. And can also be routed to any other room in the house if it has some type of streamer even if the quality is lower than my main system.

 

I only view CDs as often a cheap way to buy music second hand and as a hard copy backup you put in storage. 

Because more often than not that annoying little silver disc still sounds better played on a transport than without.  Annoying but each time myself and most of my friends think we can get rid of the transport and go direct it ends up sounding worse.  Makes no sense since you would think a solid state drive with content on it would be so much better but that is usually not the case.  

 

Tidal etc can sound good and gives you amazing convenience and access to music but its just not as good (in my opinion).   With the hard drive content it depends a lot on the content.  Lets say you or a friend has a $1000 copy of  "Wish you where here", the original CD pressing.  What would sound better- 

 

The original disc played in a transport to your dac?

The copy on your solid state drive ripped with decent ripping software, showing no losses in the ripping process etc?

A generic early CD still good but not as good sonically as the rare best sounding CD played on your transport into your dac?

 

The answer in my experience would be.........

Best sound original disc played on a transport into the dac.  Next best would be generic early cd played back on the transport.  Worst but still good would be the the copy of the original uber expensive best sounding disc.  

 

This is when the original expensive hard to find $1000 version is tons better than a early press generic Wish you where here and in a different galaxy to just a generic later press which sounds thin and edgy in comparison.

 

So if you have lots of super rare content on hard drive like i do with rips of original press cds, copies of master tapes, tons of reel to reel safety masters I've personally had transferred digitally in double dsd etc format and ripped to hard drive and the better SACD's, Fims, Esoterics, SHM, Steve Hoffmans etc. which sound amazing compared to normal CD's then many of these sound tons better than generics played on a transport but the same content via a transport into the dac in my experience is much better.  Its annoying because i would love to get rid of 3,000-4,000 CD's i have and would love to not have 3 CD transports in my listening room.

 

I still play my hard drive stuff a great deal of the time because i have amazing content but most people don't have access to this stuff.  The generic download stuff on hard drive is generally very inferior to the CD played on a decent transport.

 

Now this is assuming that your system is revealing enough to show the differences and the transport is really good quality.  Most of the newer transports and new or vintage all in one cd players used as transports are junk and i'm not talking about those in the above example.

 

LPG

[muon*]

2 hours ago, DrSK said:

Can I ask why anyone would want to own a CD player?

 

It is transport plus internal DAC that has to be manually loaded and involves handling a scratchable individual disc each time. And the player mechanisms always wear out. 

 

Compared to say my 500 or so CDs and FLAC album downloads accessed via Roon streamed to a decent DAC. All of which is accessed in seconds and sorted by genre, artist etc. And can also be routed to any other room in the house if it has some type of streamer even if the quality is lower than my main system.

 

I only view CDs as often a cheap way to buy music second hand and as a hard copy backup you put in storage. 

Because some look at things other than convenience.

[att23]

4 hours ago, DrSK said:

Can I ask why anyone would want to own a CD player?

 

It is transport plus internal DAC that has to be manually loaded and involves handling a scratchable individual disc each time. And the player mechanisms always wear out. 

 

Compared to say my 500 or so CDs and FLAC album downloads accessed via Roon streamed to a decent DAC. All of which is accessed in seconds and sorted by genre, artist etc. And can also be routed to any other room in the house if it has some type of streamer even if the quality is lower than my main system.

 

I only view CDs as often a cheap way to buy music second hand and as a hard copy backup you put in storage. 

I cannot understand why people find putting a CD into a player/transport and pressing the play button as inconvenient.

For me, turning on the laptop, software/app on iPad or TV screen, going through the drive/storage, etc etc is equally inconvenient.  And having to deal with wireless or internet issues etc every now and then. Is there a format where I can telecast my thoughts without pressing any buttons or screens?
 

Not to mention all the streaming or downloading platforms are only great for common music, what if you are after a specific jazz or classical recording that is only available on disc or record? I find CD a very convenient format tbh especially when I already have a collection.  
 

Also cannot understand why people can allow their disc to be scratched to a point that is not playable... do they put it on the floor and use their shoes to rub over it? LOL. Simple basic care in handling is suffice to keep it unscratched for years. 

 

Just goes to show one size does not fit all. Everyone has different preference. 
 

EDIT: I neglected the fact that some people like mix tape type of session. I always listen to an album for full duration. (45 to 70mins per disc). I guess that’s classical or jazz, we don’t chop it up. Whereas I guess some listens to 200 songs by 200 different artists or 200 different albums. 1 song per album. So yes, changing disc after each song is annoying. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by att23

[joeyahoo1]

On 08/10/2020 at 4:34 PM, audiofeline said:

Yes, my original Marantz CD player was retired when I couldn't obtain an replacement laser. 

If you are using an external DAC, I would wonder about differences that the transport would provide. 

Try to Google its laser mechanism model. I'm using modified Shanling SCDT200. After using it for 6 yrs casually (bcs i work full time. Even sometimes don't play on Sat & Sun) the laser diode died. Of course it's life span.  I contacted the factory & searched on internet. Luckily still available. When you replace it use anti static hand straps, mat, use anti static solder (if needed) & don't touch the mechanic's electronic board. 

[rantan]

4 hours ago, DrSK said:

Can I ask why anyone would want to own a CD player?

 

It is transport plus internal DAC that has to be manually loaded and involves handling a scratchable individual disc each time. And the player mechanisms always wear out. 

 

Compared to say my 500 or so CDs and FLAC album downloads accessed via Roon streamed to a decent DAC. All of which is accessed in seconds and sorted by genre, artist etc. And can also be routed to any other room in the house if it has some type of streamer even if the quality is lower than my main system.

 

I only view CDs as often a cheap way to buy music second hand and as a hard copy backup you put in storage. 

  Because they are far better than faffing around with buggy software programmes, hard drives that fail and need 8 back up drives,  some of which are not onsite, wi fi drop outs, running ethernet cable along the floor,out the door and into the room where the  router lives, just for starters.

 

With that said I am about 90% vinyl these days and I only play CDs when I cannot get the album on vinyl.

 

As for  scratched discs, I have a huge collection in pristine  condition and have only ever damaged perhaps two or three in my life so I don't see why it is even a tiny issue.

Also, as you say, one can buy a CD for  cheap these days.

I don't pay Roon and streaming services multiple hundreds every year and I own the copies of the music I have in my home.

 

At some point in time if my (absolutely excellent ) CD  player fails, I will re assess my situation, but by then. I will be 100% vinyl anyway.

I don't look at music as an all-you-can-eat binge ( I won't live long enough to need a 4TB hard drive) and I prefer a curated collection of physical media.

 

Ultimately everyone will make their own choices and I would never question or be critical of their choice so to everybody, I say rock on...... by what ever means you feel is right for  you.

Edited October 11, 2020 by rantan

[joeyahoo1]

Ordinary dedicated DAC using chip DAC. The more DAC chips the more infos can be proceed resulting better performance. Im using AudioGD Reference 7.1 (no longer manufactured. Replaced by high end R2R) has 4 DAC chips/ channel. So totally 8 chips. Metrum Hex DAC is 8 chips/ channel (also no longer manufactured). Now both companies make R2R DAC. High end one. Actually R2R was already made by US hifi companies around 10 yrs ago but it was very expensive at tht time. 

[joeyahoo1]

5 hours ago, bryansamui said:

I once owned ( not now regrettably) a 1995 model Californian Audio Labs ( CAL) Aria 3  Tubed CD player with an older Burr Brown PCM 58 Chip. Wow what a sound! .. Golden Sweet and let me dance with the musicians in the room..My late model Metrum DAC ($2000)albeit really nice isn't as good I don't think. 

Try to contact the manufacturer for its CD mechanism model. 

[audiofeline]

1 hour ago, joeyahoo1 said:

Try to Google its laser mechanism model. I'm using modified Shanling SCDT200. After using it for 6 yrs casually (bcs i work full time. Even sometimes don't play on Sat & Sun) the laser diode died. Of course it's life span.  I contacted the factory & searched on internet. Luckily still available. When you replace it use anti static hand straps, mat, use anti static solder (if needed) & don't touch the mechanic's electronic board. 

Thanks for the tip.  When the laser first failed, I had the laser replaced, and I was told that they were extremely hard to find for this model, and when it failed again it wouldn't be able to be repaired.  So when it failed, the tech. I took it to said that lasers for this model hadn't been available for many years.  I took him at his word, and replaced the player.  Since joining this forum, I've learned that a few "unrepairable" items I've replaced over the years may have been able to be resurrected. 

 

[bob_m_54]

Unless you are actually sure the laser has died, quite often older units suffer from problems with spindle motors getting a bit tired. They fail to spin up in time, giving errors. Panasonic were notorious for this. And quite often, there was a small plastic molded piece you snap off and use for a spacer when fitting the spindle platter.

 

spacer circled in this pic

[Rob McHugh]

On 09/10/2020 at 11:11 AM, TerryO said:

Sorry I can’t comment on the Esoteric or the Marantz,  but like Gimini07 I have three CDP’s, in my case they are a Oppo 205, PrimaLuna Classic tube CD with nearly $1k in NOS tubes and a Droplet 5.0
In my main system the Droplet wins easily, with my second system either the Oppo or the PL CDP usually deliver a better sq than the Droplet depending on what amp is being used, so yes synergy is very important and the only way you can find what works with what is through experimentation.
 

One thing though they all deliver much better sq with a Marigo Aida mat installed, but at over $350 the mat is not inexpensive, though I consider it is easily worth it for the sound quality improvement it delivers. 
 

Sometimes nothing is ever easy in this hobby.

 

cheers,

Terry

Cheers Terry, I will definitely do some research on this after reading your review.

 

PS I love my old Brendel Beethoven but have recently been wowed by the likes  of Lewis and Bavouzet.

 

Rob

[Rob McHugh]

7 hours ago, rantan said:

  Because they are far better than faffing around with buggy software programmes, hard drives that fail and need 8 back up drives,  some of which are not onsite, wi fi drop outs, running ethernet cable along the floor,out the door and into the room where the  router lives, just for starters.

 

With that said I am about 90% vinyl these days and I only play CDs when I cannot get the album on vinyl.

 

As for  scratched discs, I have a huge collection in pristine  condition and have only ever damaged perhaps two or three in my life so I don't see why it is even a tiny issue.

Also, as you say, one can buy a CD for  cheap these days.

I don't pay Roon and streaming services multiple hundreds every year and I own the copies of the music I have in my home.

 

At some point in time if my (absolutely excellent ) CD  player fails, I will re assess my situation, but by then. I will be 100% vinyl anyway.

I don't look at music as an all-you-can-eat binge ( I won't live long enough to need a 4TB hard drive) and I prefer a curated collection of physical media.

 

Ultimately everyone will make their own choices and I would never question or be critical of their choice so to everybody, I say rock on...... by what ever means you feel is right for  you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

This exactly.

I am 60 and while I am very computer literate, who needs all the faffing about as the above poster so adequately describes it.  Two solid reasons: 1 - I own maybe 20,000 CD's - I have 68 versions of Wagners Rings Cycle alone and own just about everything Sviatoslav Richter, Horowitz and Rubenstein ever recorded, just those are more listening than I will live to hear right there - why on Earth would I want to sit around ripping these into FLAC files, which I can do by the way, I've experimented with it. This leads me to pint 2: My experimenting led me to try Tidal Hi-Fi - pas pour moi I'm afraid. I can see the appeal but all the stuff I would want in lossless format is just not there - no Pink Floyd??? The Stones first 2 albums (mostly writing as Nanker and Fledge the songs were so hesitant) and none of the great albums from the 70's and 80's, 'Beggars Banquet' anyone?? All the good lossless stuff on there is mainly American R&B, which makes sense given that JayZee owns it.

 

Thank you to everyone that has shared their experience and knowledge. I am thinking the upgrade will be from Woo Audio (thanks @Ian McP). So, one last question; is the considerable difference in dollars between the CDT2-MK2 and the CDT3-MK2 worth it? Yes, I know it is subjective as are most things connected with this hobby, but am wondering if any former / present owners can speak to any differences.

 

Thank you guys,

Rob

Edited October 11, 2020 by Rob McHugh

[Be Quiet...Listen]

On 08/10/2020 at 8:43 PM, muon* said:

Get a Marantz CD12/DA12 combo

That’s what I did. All smiles here

[Be Quiet...Listen]

There are no absolutes with regard to any corner of this hobby...

Now that that’s our of the way, I much prefer and would strongly recommend older units. If you research and buy wisely you can have something as good, if not better, than a current production model at a significantly lesser cost. 
@dcathro @Lansche plasma guy and @muon* know their stuff here. All great recommendations. 
I have a host of transports, DAC’s and players now. I can’t seem to help myself. I’ll go looking for a new cartridge to try for my Kuzma TT and something great in digital pops up for much less and I can’t help myself

Philips CDM1 & CEC’s are what do it for me in regard to transports mechs. DAC chips I very much favour Philips TDA1541’s, the PCM 63’s & 1702’s & UltraAnalog 20400’s. Golden time in digital! 
 

[Lansche plasma guy]

1 hour ago, Be Quiet...Listen said:

There are no absolutes with regard to any corner of this hobby...

Now that that’s our of the way, I much prefer and would strongly recommend older units. If you research and buy wisely you can have something as good, if not better, than a current production model at a significantly lesser cost. 
@dcathro @Lansche plasma guy and @muon* know their stuff here. All great recommendations. 
I have a host of transports, DAC’s and players now. I can’t seem to help myself. I’ll go looking for a new cartridge to try for my Kuzma TT and something great in digital pops up for much less and I can’t help myself

Philips CDM1 & CEC’s are what do it for me in regard to transports mechs. DAC chips I very much favour Philips TDA1541’s, the PCM 63’s & 1702’s & UltraAnalog 20400’s. Golden time in digital! 
 

........... and the pcm 1704 which I'm loving at the moment.

[Mendes]

15 minutes ago, Lansche plasma guy said:

PCM 63’s 

Very analog sounding....

[Guest]

I used to own a Yamaha CD-5050 I sold on gumtree when I needed coin back in the day. Pity. 

[Mendes]

26 minutes ago, Mendes said:

Very analog sounding....

Often regret changing digital boards in my DAC, the venerable PCM 63 was very special...???

[fordute]

1 hour ago, Mendes said:

Often regret changing digital boards in my DAC, the venerable PCM 63 was very special...???

What did you change to?

[Mendes]

15 minutes ago, fordute said:

What did you change to?

 

[rockeater]

On 08/10/2020 at 1:34 PM, audiofeline said:

Yes, my original Marantz CD player was retired when I couldn't obtain an replacement laser. 

What Marantz was that and what mechanism?

On 08/10/2020 at 1:35 PM, gemini07 said:

Both the Primare and the Audia needed laser assembly replacements last year, at some cost. In the case of the AF One, more than the cost of most new CD and BD players.

Really? How much were you charged?

On 09/10/2020 at 7:33 AM, aechmea said:

The problem with old or even any CD player used as a transport is that it is based on a proprietary mechanism.  It is likely that there will be difficulty finding a replacement laser, drive, whatever, when it eventually breaks. 

Some difficulty yes but nothing major.

 

Guys, I fix CD players and lasers and mechanisms hardly ever break.

The high price for the "laser replacement" is just a"Service Managers" speak for a steep labour charge.

I replace laser/mechanism perhaps once every 3 or 4 months and most often than not, it is in a "new" player. By new I mean made this century. For basically no one makes any good mechanism today.

Most CD players that break just need a service. New belts, cleaning of limit switches, removal of old, hardened grease, cleaning the dirt from moving parts - that kind of things.

Lasers, even for old players are still available (not all but most) and some like the KSS-190A which are not, simply do not break and lasers are not an issue.

Some units like a TEAC VRDS T-10 (from memory) have a gear that breaks and you cannot get it from a local supplier. But there is a guy on eBay in Germany who makes them from brass and sells them for $70. It is a lot for the original one was $5, but it is not the end of the Earth.

On 10/10/2020 at 5:38 AM, dcathro said:

I have been using CD players based around the CDM4 and the TDA1541A for the past 15 years, and to my ears, nothing comes close for less than the price of a European car.  A CDM4 based transport will be hard to beat, and replacement mechanisms are easily found.

 

Another option that some people swear by are the Teac VRDS mechanisms. 

Some wise words here.

Best CD players were made in the end of 80s and to mid 90s for there were still great mechanisms made then.