PC only source - what connection and amp for best 2-channel sound (music and some TV)?

[Zeeb]

Hi, maybe these are basic questions; please let me know if I'm in the wrong forum.

 

I am going to get a quality 2-channel stereo amp and speakers, perhaps in the $2000-total range.

 

I don't want to get an AV receiver unless I need it - I would prefer to get a higher quality stereo or 2.1 amplifier, but also be able to use it in sync with my 2013 plasma TV. 

 

The only source I will be using is my PC - for music, TV, youtube music video, maybe music streams. I won't be using the TV tuner or apps - the TV just acts as a passive monitor for the PC.

 

I have some fairly basic questions I can't find answers for. I'd appreciate any help...

 

I assume without an AV receiver, the best set-up would be:

 

PC --> stereo receiver

plus when required, simultaneously,

PC --(HDMI)--> TV

 

1. To get digital audio from the PC to the receiver - is USB significantly better than the motherboard optical-out?

[My motherboard has the Realtek® ALC1220 Codec with optical S/PDIF (B450 GAMING PRO CARBON AC)]

 

 

2. If I use USB for audio-out, can I simultaneously use HDMI to the TV (and get the receiver to delay the sound to sync with the video)?

 

3. If it's not possible to use USB audio with HDMI video together like this - is there another way to split off the PC's HDMI audio from video signal, to feed the audio into the receiver?

 

(a way which will not degrade the audio beyond overlapping the multi-channel into stereo. I assume my TV's optical audio-out would be inferior, and it seemed faulty when I tried it anyway)

 

 

4. I know about the Marantz NR1200 - a 2.1 stereo receiver with HDMI inputs ($1450 Australian). This seems to be halfway between an AV receiver and a stereo receiver.
If the above ideas are not great and this Marantz is my best solution, is the price justified beyond just running motherboard optical-out or analogue to a standard stereo receiver?

Thanks.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Zeeb
clarity

[Guest rmpfyf]

I run almost what you have, as in a PC in the middle connected to a screen a lot of the time and a 2.2 setup (could easily be 2.1).

 

Get a DAC. Right now I'm on my development DACs - two Topping D10s. They're fine, easy to source, sound a ton better than what they cost. You can't go wrong. You can spend more too. I have a pair as a I run the subs separately and filter digitally, you don't have to do this. Youcan solve that much for the $200 range.

 

I would connect USB, it's preferable to the motherboard onboard DAC.

 

Sync is not a problem. At that level the delays are not signficant enough to be noticeable.

 

Most media centre type programs will let you pick an audio sink independently of where the video goes, so no problems there.

 

It only gets slightly curly if you want to go the other way (e.g. feed audio from the TV back into the PC). That'd require a motherboard or sound device with a TOSLINK input (not output) and a software mixer. Depending how configured there may be a SQ penalty in as much But it's possible.

[Zeeb]

Thank you, that answers my main question. Very good news I should be able to run USB digital audio with HDMI video (muting the TV). Hopefully Windows 10 will do that natively but I'll look into new media players/centres if need be or if they can improve sound.

 

I use a PC TV tuner card so don't think I'll need any TV audio output.

 

I'll also look into whether it's better to get a receiver with a built-in DAC or a separate DAC box like the Topping you suggest. I like the idea of making things a bit modular for specialisation, upgrades and saving money.

 

When I had both my plasma TV speakers and PC analogue audio on together, there was a small but intolerable echo, but with the TV speakers off I haven't noticed the lip sync being off. Still, I will look into receivers/DACs that can delay the audio.

 

I don't know how far I'll end up going with this new hobby but I'm excited to get my first real system - it will be a huge jump from plugging my computers/TVs into boomboxes etc. It's fun watching the youtube audiophile pundits etc and learning the language and options.

 

I guess devices like the Marantz NR1200 are more for people who regularly switch between multiple sources including HDMI and want the networking as well, in as few boxes as possible (and who maybe don't have a good digital audio output from their TV).

[Guest rmpfyf]

Just now, Zeeb said:

Thank you, that answers my main question. Very good news I should be able to run USB digital audio with HDMI video (muting the TV). Hopefully Windows 10 will do that natively but I'll look into new media players/centres if need be or if they can improve sound.

 

I use a PC TV tuner card so don't think I'll need any TV audio output.

 

I'll also look into whether it's better to get a receiver with a built-in DAC or a separate DAC box like the Topping you suggest. I like the idea of making things a bit modular for specialisation, upgrades and saving money.

 

When I had both my plasma TV speakers and PC analogue audio on together, there was a small but intolerable echo, but with the TV speakers off I haven't noticed the lip sync being off. Still, I will look into receivers/DACs that can delay the audio.

 

I don't know how far I'll end up going with this new hobby but I'm excited to get my first real system - it will be a huge jump from plugging my computers/TVs into boomboxes etc. It's fun watching the youtube audiophile pundits etc and learning the language and options.

 

I guess devices like the Marantz NR1200 are more for people who regularly switch between multiple sources including HDMI and want the networking as well, in as few boxes as possible (and who maybe don't have a good digital audio output from their TV).

 

Just use Kodi or its derivatives... will do exactly what you want. Can commodate your TV tuner also.

 

You could get a nice set of active speakers and just have your PC and a DAC, minimum boxes.

[Zeeb]

Right I see so I could just do active speakers with a DAC, but I'm inclined to get a good receiver with or without a separate DAC. I don't mind a few boxes for the best sound I can afford. Will keep Kodi in mind too, cheers.

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, Zeeb said:

Right I see so I could just do active speakers with a DAC, but I'm inclined to get a good receiver with or without a separate DAC. I don't mind a few boxes for the best sound I can afford. Will keep Kodi in mind too, cheers.

 

See how you go. $2k buys a lot - and I mean a lot - of second-hand active speaker.

[Zeeb]

Hmm maybe I should research speakers before amps then. Will check out some other sections of the forum, and I notice there's a classifieds here. I'm inclined to buy new though.

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, Zeeb said:

Hmm maybe I should research speakers before amps then. Will check out some other sections of the forum, and I notice there's a classifieds here. I'm inclined to buy new though.

 

I'd go the other way there. There's just so much good stuff second-hand that it's quite hard to justify new. One of our main rigs is PC > DAC > actives that were purchased s/h and it absolutely rocks. Would not have been the same result if purchased new.

 

I'd start a thread describing your budget, your room, what you listen to and any other particulars, and see what the world throws back at you. Minus the DAC you're at $1800 to spend.

[Zeeb]

I'll take my time and that sounds like a good idea. Glad I joined this forum; thanks for being so helpful:)

[Zeeb]

I ended up partially taking your suggestions. I have ordered a pair of Genelec 8030C active studio monitors (analogue). I was close to getting a pair of Elac Uni-Fi 2.0 UB52 passives and a separate amp, but I couldn't avoid the better value in actives after hearing more of the pro and con arguments.

 

I was surprised to see a Steve Guttenberg youtube where he made some simplistic objections to actives. It must be hard for some of the old-schoolers to break the association of powered speaker = entry level compromised crap (or specialised studio gear).

 

The DSP Genelecs looked great but they were a bit expensive and I feel a bit more secure with simpler analogue powered speakers.

 

I also considered the Acoustic Energy AE1 actives, the Neumann KH120s and a bunch of others, but I decided on the Genelecs based on reviews of their quality and long-term reliability, their protective speaker grilles and attractive to me looks (I got the 'raw' unpainted aluminium colour).

 

I made another post in the DAC section asking about a well-matching DAC.

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Zeeb

[Rosco8]

On my office system I use a pair of active monitors driven by a Rotel RC1570 preamp that has an integrated DAC, so just USB into the pre.  Works beautifully.   Saves me having to redial the active speaker volumes plus I get a better sound out of the preamp and it also supports wifi so I can use my phone as an input as well.

[Jackybrown]

As you use them for TV, I assume you want to remote control the volume. One advice is not to use any software in the PC to control the volume, use a pre-amp or at least a Dac with volume control feature.

[Zeeb]

15 hours ago, Rosco8 said:

a Rotel RC1570 preamp that has an integrated DAC

 

13 hours ago, Jackybrown said:

not to use any software in the PC to control the volume, use a pre-amp or at least a Dac with volume control feature.

 

With actives like my Genelec 8030s, is a preamp+DAC better sound quality than just a DAC plus separate analogue volume control knob before the Genelecs?

I'm not sure which would reduce the quality more - the separate volume knob or the preamp (I guess another factor is whether the preamp has a digital or analogue volume control?).

 

I also wonder if my wireless keyboard can be used to control a DAC/preamp volume directly without a remote (while keeping the PC volume fixed/maxed).

Edited October 16, 2020 by Zeeb

[Rosco8]

My understanding is keeping the signal as original as possible into the DAC so not using volume control to reduce it in the PC.  I certainly see degradation on my main system which is quite sensitive to sources, in this case sourced by a high end laptop into a separate high end DAC, though this comes with a vendor DAC driver that selects direct signal.  Sound for me is better control in my Pre/DAC.  I originally had a DAC into the actives and controlled the volume between the PC  and on the actives, it was okay but i get more audio control and improved quality using the DAC/pre unit.

[Satanica]

If speakers can accept a digital connection then it might be worthwhile providing as such. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Satanica

[Zeeb]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

If speakers can accept a digital connection

no only analogue (XLR) on these

[Jackybrown]

3 hours ago, Zeeb said:

 

 

With actives like my Genelec 8030s, is a preamp+DAC better sound quality than just a DAC plus separate analogue volume control knob before the Genelecs?

Really depending on which DAC , or DAC+ Preamp you choose. I would suggest you could start with a Topping E30 (with volume control via remote) first, as it only costs around $200 and can easily sell it here if it doesn't work well. I have one (although I don't use the volume control), it's well built and sound good.

3 hours ago, Zeeb said:

I'm not sure which would reduce the quality more - the separate volume knob or the preamp (I guess another factor is whether the preamp has a digital or analogue volume control?).

Any well built and matching preamp (either passive or active) shouldn't reduce the sound quality, it may add some colour to the sound, but just like seasoning in food, should be better, not worse.

3 hours ago, Zeeb said:

 

I also wonder if my wireless keyboard can be used to control a DAC/preamp volume directly without a remote (while keeping the PC volume fixed/maxed).

It's highly unlikely you can find a DAC/preamp product can do so within your budget.

[Zeeb]

1 hour ago, Jackybrown said:

Really depending on which DAC , or DAC+ Preamp you choose...

 

Any well built and matching preamp (either passive or active) shouldn't reduce the sound quality...

That's good to know but with powered monitors, might it be technically better to have no preamp, just the DAC-->external passive volume knob-->powered monitors ?

 

But right now I am looking at whether I should go a very different route and get an audio interface instead of a DAC - I'm asking about it in this post:
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/326401-200-1000-dac-usb-input-for-pc-source-for-genelec-8030s/

[Guest rmpfyf]

On 17/10/2020 at 3:09 PM, Zeeb said:

That's good to know but with powered monitors, might it be technically better to have no preamp, just the DAC-->external passive volume knob-->powered monitors ?

 

But right now I am looking at whether I should go a very different route and get an audio interface instead of a DAC - I'm asking about it in this post:
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/326401-200-1000-dac-usb-input-for-pc-source-for-genelec-8030s/

 

An audio interface includes a DAC so really this is a non-issue. 

 

It doesn't matter where you do your volume control, what matter is that you do it well. 

 

Don't get too hung up on bitperfect output from the PC. You could end up in future doing all sorts of things in the PC for shiggles (filtering for subs, room correction) that sounds a ton better and ends up with more fidelity at your ears than bitperfect output. If you can implement a PC control that dithers properly it can sound amazing. Kodi (mentioned earlier) will not do this out of the box and though it's possible to hack as much I'm not getting the impression you want to spend time hacking, recompiling, etc. 

 

If you've gone the Genelecs, are really concerned about bit-stripping in volume attenuation and you're using a range of programs on your PC that include multimedia playback (so not 'critical listening all the time' in a way that you can preprocess a file for volume level in an exacting way) you're probably interested in a DAC that:

• Is decent
• Has balanced output
• Is well level/impedance matched to your active speakers
• Has a well-implemented volume control (digitla, digitally-controlled analogue or analogue)
• Has a remote control

 

In Topping-land that's the D70/D90, whist that money is under the $1k you've specified there's a ton of options within that range, and you ay well be able to get to a boutique builder and buy exactly what you want too. If you want to go Full Critical Listening on things you can sit volume at 100% and preprocess a volume change from an audio player on the PC, though compared to something with a decent volume control the differences are likely to be practically small to negligible. I would offer that if you've a DAC processing at 24 bits and you're not listening at live concert volumes at least then this is really a non-issue, as you have plenty of bits in the ether of audibility to play with.

 

You'll still get your journey started on a D10/E30 and controlling volume on a PC just fine IMHO as long as the levels match up.

[Zeeb]

2 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

a DAC that:

• Is decent
• Has balanced output
• Is well level/impedance matched to your active speakers
• Has a well-implemented volume control (digitla, digitally-controlled analogue or analogue)
• Has a remote control

The Genelecs arrived yesterday and are just sitting silently on a shelf with no DAC or cables... exciting, but I'm getting a bit tired of all the research. I've narrowed my DAC choices down...

 

(the charts at

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/

were a big help)

 

I think I will go for a DAC with balanced output straight away as people seem to recommend that for the Genelecs. I got down to:

 

Topping D70 / DX7s / DX7 Pro

SMSL SU-9 ($645)

and on the audio interface side,  MOTU M2 / M4 ($329/$429)

 

Now the MOTU doesn't have a remote control for volume and mute (and disables Windows volume) - but I assume I can use wireless keyboard shortcuts and mouse in media players (at least for non-critical listening as you say).

 

(Later I'll look into how the volume controls/settings in the media players and youtube etc interact with the DAC driver and Windows sounds. I keep hearing about room correction and DSP but dithering is a new one )

 

For price I'd rather start with the MOTU - is there any reason why the MOTU might not suit me compared to the Toppings/SMSL?

 

(The SMSL apparently has great measurements but I was a bit worried about a report of it freezing at audiosciencereviews - maybe it's a firmware issue on a new device or something.)

Edited October 20, 2020 by Zeeb

[Guest rmpfyf]

39 minutes ago, Zeeb said:

The Genelecs arrived yesterday and are just sitting silently on a shelf with no DAC or cables... exciting, but I'm getting a bit tired of all the research. I've narrowed my DAC choices down...

 

(the charts at

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/

were a big help)

 

I think I will go for a DAC with balanced output straight away as people seem to recommend that for the Genelecs. I got down to:

 

Topping D70 / DX7s / DX7 Pro

SMSL SU-9 ($645)

and on the audio interface side,  MOTU M2 / M4 ($329/$429)

 

Now the MOTU doesn't have a remote control for volume and mute (and disables Windows volume) - but I assume I can use wireless keyboard shortcuts and mouse in media players (at least for non-critical listening as you say).

 

(Later I'll look into how the volume controls/settings in the media players and youtube etc interact with the DAC driver and Windows sounds. I keep hearing about room correction and DSP but dithering is a new one )

 

For price I'd rather start with the MOTU - is there any reason why the MOTU might not suit me compared to the Toppings/SMSL?

 

(The SMSL apparently has great measurements but I was a bit worried about a report of it freezing at audiosciencereviews - maybe it's a firmware issue on a new device or something.)

 

I wouldn't put too much credence in measurements. Let them guide you but your ears need to be absolute. 

 

If you need an audio interface, get one. If you're not recording they offer no significant advantage. In terms of audio fidelity, I'd offer that playback and recording differ in needs. I have an audio interface though I don't use it for listening. 

 

Just set volume to max in any application and you're fine.

 

The rest is going to depend on what you want/need. If you want balanced, it will cost a certain amount. If you don't want balanced, a D10 or most of it's equivalents is going to do a very decent job. If you want the cheapest thing you can find with balanced outputs, then an audio interface might be it. My intuition would go for a decent unbalanced DAC over an audio interface's DAC that happens to be balanced. 

 

I can't talk to level matching etc, others will have more familiarity here. 

[Zeeb]

Yesterday I reached an impasse with researching DACs. I was almost about to buy a Topping D70 or DX7 Pro when I read on audiosciencereviews that there is a problem where the OLED screen burns in and becomes hard to read, and worse - the volume control knob is faulty (at least on some of them).

 

(They said the DX3 Pro volume doesn't do this.)

 

A shame, because by all accounts the Topping D70, D90 and DX7 Pro are otherwise excellent. But that's too much to spend, especially considering the pace at which new DACs seem to be released.

 

So I decided to just buy the XLR cables first (with RCA adaptors) and plug the Genelecs straight into my motherboard analogue line out - to see how noisy it sounds without a DAC.

 

At default sensitivity setting (on the knob at the back) there was a lot of noise and interference (radio static- and morse code-type interference noise) - but when I turned it down to the minimum (12dBu lower) it seems to be almost inaudible at normal listening distance (I will check this again at night-time when it's quiet).

 

I was ecstatic when I first played some songs (Hyperballad by Bjork and some electronic music). I'm very happy with how these sound so far!

 

So because the interference level will probably be acceptable with an unbalanced DAC, I will now reconsider unbalanced DACs. I would prefer a balanced, but I only want to pay over $400 if the build quality and reliability are there.

 

I have also now ruled out DACs without a preamp volume (after reading how disappointing and fragile budget external passive volume controllers are).

 

I have also ruled out the Motu M2 and M4 - only because they completely disable the Windows volume, and I want to be able to use Windows volume when I'm not listening to music.

 

So I need a DAC that:

• does not always disable Windows 10 volume
• has a preamp volume control
• has 2 line-outs for 2 separate rooms [edit: it looks it's fine to just split one line-out if the output impedance is low (maybe less than 1000ohms), so this one is optional]

 

That leaves me with a few options to research including the cheaper Toppings - the D30, D50 and DX3 Pro and E30.

 

Anyway I'm happy now after trying the speakers and I'll hopefully pick a DAC soon.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Zeeb

[Zeeb]

An update for anyone interested. I just ordered the Soncoz SGD1 DAC for the Genelecs.

I decided to go balanced, and got down to the Soncoz LA-QDX1 and SMSL SU-8 v2 (after ruling out the balanced Toppings and MOTU as I explained above).

This review convinced me to go for the Soncoz LA-QDX1:
(hard to hear - open the transcript)

 

I then saw there were teething problems with the LA-QDX1 in the review thread at audiosciencereviews - but also saw that Soncoz offers a partial lifetime warranty (you pay for parts and shipping) and is active on the ASR forum.

The warranty details are here (you have to buy it directly from them I think):
https://www.soncozaudio.com/warranty-service/

I didn't want to spend over about $400 without a reputation of reliability or a good warranty. So when I saw that the 'big brother' Soncoz SGD1 had this warranty and a remote control - and that it was more mature than the LA-QDX1, I took the plunge.

(The SU-8 v2 and SMSL SU-9 also looked good but I felt more confident about the Soncoz for the above reasons.)

Edited October 28, 2020 by Zeeb