TP1 Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 49 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said: Not sure on the specifics for each device, but output would be maxed on all of them, so 4K, 12bit, etc. where possible. Fairly certain the projector sees 3840x2160 for almost all content. I suggest setting the outputs to source direct if possible. You will find that the Sony projector's upscaling of non-4k material is superior to those of the source devices. I have done this and get better results. Apple TV 4K has no source direct option but I change the output resolution manually for 1080P material and the improvement through the projector doing the scaling is immediately noticeable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 14 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said: It's that good Eleventy out of ten is pretty damn good 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 48 minutes ago, TP1 said: I suggest setting the outputs to source direct if possible I'll give this a try. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinewave Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 2 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said: Not sure on the specifics for each device, but output would be maxed on all of them, so 4K, 12bit, etc. where possible. Fairly certain the projector sees 3840x2160 for almost all content. Interesting. I tried that but decided on ‘Source Direct’ output from my Oppo 205, so that 2k blue rays are sent to the Sony for upscaling there. Some of those photos look amazing! Great work. I just saw a 760 on a massive 2.35:1 screen with an anamorphic lens and wasn’t blown away by it compared to my 590. Your Alita shots look stunning though. I’m trying to decide on a new screen so I’m comparing all my options. BTW - Circa $800 for calibration in Canberra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) I don't watch many standard blu rays anymore (probably should), mainly UHD, so never really bothered looking/changing settings for upscaling on the Pana. Will certainly review them now that it's mentioned. I haven't personally seen a 590, but is probably 9/10 of the 790 performance. If the out of the box colour in Reference mode is similar/same as the 790, I don't know if there's $800 worth of improvement to be had. Personally I'll be holding off on a calibration. With a few minor tweaks to grayscale using the menus, I'm more than happy with the picture. Perhaps if I ever go down the road of a Lumagen or similar in the future, then I'll look at getting everything calibrated. What size/ratio screens do you have shortlisted? Edited October 13, 2020 by xPLAYRZx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinewave Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Well this is a huge consideration for me. I’d love to know what others think. my issue (not really a big problem as I absolutely love them) is that my main speakers are so huge that I have to project into the gap between them. The right speaker is just about as far right as it can go due to the door to my theatre being there. The left can move a few CM I suppose. Then I can *just* fit a 110” 16x9 screen. Up from my current Screen Technics 100” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinewave Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 I suppose now with my magnificent 590 I’ll have to move the i93s elsewhere and get 2 Krix in wall speakers and a 120” acoustically transparent screen. This is the logical step I suppose. I specifically went in to my local serious hi fi store today to see the new screen technics material (I may get a grey screen?) and the electronic masking in action but really was not impressed at all. what do serious enthusiasts here do? Obviously almost all my material is 2.35:1 but my favorite discs have some 70mm content in them (like Dark Knight for example) and I can’t imagine compromising on that dramatic effect of It switching to 16x9 several times during the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinewave Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Sorry that was an old photo with my 10” subs. I now have 2x 15” Rythmik subs and 4x 10” at the rear. these are the Krix in walls that match my Epicentrix centre speaker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted October 13, 2020 Author Share Posted October 13, 2020 21 minutes ago, Sinewave said: move the i93s elsewhere and get 2 Krix in wall speakers and a 120” acoustically transparent screen. This is the logical step I suppose. I think this makes the most sense. I couldn't comment on the performance of transparent screens as I've never owned one but I'm sure there must be some quality options out there. Ratio's are personal preference, for me it has to be 16:9 for gaming. If you go to a 120" you'll still have a good amount of real estate for 2.35:1 material. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, Sinewave said: what do serious enthusiasts here do? Obviously almost all my material is 2.35:1 but my favorite discs have some 70mm content in them (like Dark Knight for example) and I can’t imagine compromising on that dramatic effect of It switching to 16x9 several times during the film. I went with a 140” 2.35:1 screen from Oztheatre. I previously had a 110” 16x9 screen which was easily big enough for 16x9 material. The 140” CinemaScope screen does 16x9 material at roughly the same size as before (slightly larger), but CinemaScope material is gloriously projected onto the big screen without compromise. I would guess that the full 2.35:1 image on the 140” screen would be double the size of that on the 16x9 110” screen , and 16x9 material is about the same. There is definitely a lot of. Wow factor in a big CinemaScope screen In your room, I would look to put in the biggest cine screen possible but you would need to do something about the tower speakers. I think you would get equally good audio results with top notch stand mounts just below the screen , each augmented. by a subwoofer ( not LFE) The only other alternative to a smaller screen ( which I suspect you will outgrow) is an Acoustically transparent screen with speakers behind 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 This article is what alerted me to it. It is an excerpt of the review of the Sony 760ES/885ES by Widescreen Review in June 2018, in which acoustically transparent screens are discussed. "the 885ES images were very impressive indeed. They remained impressive on different projection screen materials also. The woven (not punched) acoustically transparent Enlightor Neo screen material from Seymour-Screen Excellence revealed the supremely sharp images as well as subtle changes in luminance/shading that make images seem highly natural looking as well. Something I didn’t expect was sharpness to be as obvious with a woven screen compared to a solid-coated screen material. It is worth re-mentioning, that the SMPTE’s testing of perforated cinema projection screens revealed that the additional resolution of 4K images was not visible to the audience when projected onto perforated projection screens as used in most cinemas around the world. So anyone wishing to use an acoustically transparent projection screen with any “real” 4K or UHD projector needs to select the material for the screen very carefully so they are able to “see” the resolution these projectors can deliver to screens capable of delivering that resolution to your eyes." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share Posted October 14, 2020 Update my HDR score to a 8/10 for the 790. Watched a few more movies (Aquaman, Bad Boys for Life) and yeah..... it's good, surprisingly good. I really don't have high expectations for HDR content but the 790 is slowly changing my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted October 14, 2020 Author Share Posted October 14, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said: Update my HDR score to a 8/10 for the 790. Watched a few more movies (Aquaman, Bad Boys for Life) and yeah..... it's good, surprisingly good. I really don't have high expectations for HDR content but the 790 is slowly changing my mind. I have noticed that movies mastered in 4K give better results than those that use 2K masters. ( The 2 movies you mentioned above are 2K masters). However, since CGI is usually done in 2k, movies with a lot of CGI would look a bit weird with 4K masters because they would make the CGI look even more fake. Try Planet Earth 2 ( Disc) and the new streaming show from Apple TV+ "Tiny World". They should set a benchmark for what is achievable from 4K HDR. There are a number of movies that are mastered in 4K as well as re-mastered old movies with 4K transfers. One such movie, Hunt for Red October was dreadful on bluray but the remastered 4K /HDR transfer is definitely worth watching. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xPLAYRZx Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share Posted October 17, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinewave Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 I finally found the time to watch the above video and found it informative, even though I thought I’d read every possible word about the 590. In my experience with mine so far, I’m astonished at how impressive the Sony upscaling is. Avatar in 2K looked unbelievably good, Oblivion in 4K had simply the best contrast I’ve seen so far in any projector system. Just saw Martian in 4K and it was breathtaking as well. Couldn’t be happier with my 590, and I’m still uncalibrated - just running on Ref and with contrast enhancer at medium. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted October 20, 2020 Share Posted October 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sinewave said: I finally found the time to watch the above video and found it informative, even though I thought I’d read every possible word about the 590. In my experience with mine so far, I’m astonished at how impressive the Sony upscaling is. Avatar in 2K looked unbelievably good, Oblivion in 4K had simply the best contrast I’ve seen so far in any projector system. Just saw Martian in 4K and it was breathtaking as well. Couldn’t be happier with my 590, and I’m still uncalibrated - just running on Ref and with contrast enhancer at medium. Sony's scaling and motion handing were second to none before these new models came out. It looks like they may have upped the ante with the new range. To describe the picture quality compared to what she had previously seen, my wife used the term "luxurious". Although not a technical term, it does sum it up I think. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRMS Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I bought the 590ES 10 days ago and am well impressed. I had bought a new 320ES for a good deal, in a bit of a rush over the www, but returned it when I discovered it was 4+ years old and Sony support rejected my attempt to register it. And then decided to bite the bullet and get the 590ES. Also uncalibrated and after I watched the YT video above, I wonder how much I would actually notice if I had the PJ calibrated?? I have to say I'm pretty new at all this stuff and have been out of it for years. Previous projector is a 2002 InFocus X1 800x600!! But got a 4K satellite receiver in the summer. Unfortunately there is only 1 satellite 4K channel on Astra 2 at 28.2E, but it is a good demonstration with a variety of short films to demonstrate the 4K capability. German TV on Astra 1 at 19.2E has a QVC shopping channel!! As if junk will look better at 4K?? However, I think I do have an HDCP issue between the 590ES and the 4K satellite receiver, the GigaBlue UHD Quad 4K which I am trying to resolve, but I don't yet know the GigaBlue HDCP. And this is a bit of a shaggy dog story: I have 4 source boxes connected to Audio Visual Receiver - a Marantz NR1711 2020 unfortunately with just a single output which then goes through a Wyrestorm H2 splitter. The reason for using the splitter is 2 fold. To downscale a 4K signal from the Marantz AVR - either native from GigaBlue and 4K Blu-ray or AVR upscaled to 1080p and to prevent needing to plug and unplug equipment - which is bad for the plugs and can damage kit through static electricity etc. https://www.marantz.com/en-gb/shop/avreceiver/nr1711 https://wyrestorm.com/EXP-SP-0102-H2 The Wyrestorm has 4 indication lights. Red for the 5v external power source. Blue for the HDMI input from the AVR. And Blue for each HDMI output. It is entirely automatic with nothing to adjust - EDID, HDP etc. The 2 HDMI outputs are the Sony VPL-VW590ES PJ 2020 or a TV - I have tried a Toshiba 32" HD 2013, Samsung 28" HD 2014 and LG 32" HD 2020 HDCP 2.0. 4 source boxes are a Sony RDR-HXD770 Freeview Recorder/DVD player 2007, a Panasonic 4K Blu-ray player couple of years old, a Humax Foxsat HDR HD satellite recorder 2008 and a 2020 GigaBlue UHD 4K satellite 2TB recorder - running OpenVix software. The Sony PJ, Wyrestorm H2 and Panasonic Blu-ray are all HDCP 2.2. https://gigablue.de/portfolio-item/gigablue-uhd-quad-4k/ HDMI CEC is switched off on everything, except the Sony PJ which doesn't have a setting. The GigaBlue has a complicated HDMI CEC menu if enabled, and there may be a setting in there that will solve the issue. It is disabled. I've also used a CEC disabling adapter lead and it doesn't make any difference to the results. I have also checked the EDID files on each device. All accurately reflect when the equipment came into service. Except 1 item. The Sony 590ES which only went on sale a month or so ago. Its EDID is dated 2013. So not confidence building that the Sony EDID information is actually correct?? An experienced contributor has suggested on www.avforums.com that it is an EDID issue. HDMI cables are HDMI Certified for the shorter runs and a 10m Active Optical fibre cable Wyrestorm output to the projector. Solid stable pictures with no sparklies, dropouts or tearing etc. From standby, a warm start, everything works correctly. But my system doesn't stay in standby - checked with a power meter and actually draws quite a few watts. So wasting wigglies and during the day switched off. From total power off, cold start, with everything connected, it gets interesting. All boxes work correctly except the GigaBlue in 2160p. On start up the GigaBlue displays the 1 or 2 start up "splash screens" at up to 1920 x 1080p on its internal small screen and on the TV - a "GigaBlue" screen and then an "OpenVix" screen. Then when the TV picture appears on the GigaBlue internal display, all TVs just display "no signal". At one stage, unplug and replug the Sony PJ HDMI at the PJ, and the picture appeared. But that does not seem to work today. If the GigaBlue output is set to 1080p and lower, then I get a picture. With the projector switched on and connected by either HDMI input, the picture appears on the PJ screen but not on the TV. The 2160p output from the Panasonic Blu-ray is downscaled correctly by the H2 and I get a TV picture, even with the Sony PJ connected by HDMI. So I think there is a conflict between the GigaBlue HD and Sony PJ and is possibly an HDCP/EDID/CEC etc issue. And I have found 2 possible issues with the Sony that concern me: 1. From a cold start the Wyrestorm H2 blue indicator for the Sony PJ HDMI output comes on instantly - even with the Sony fully powered off/unplugged - and well before the TV output blue indicator, which only comes on when the TV goes into standby. I do not think this handshake should be happening with the projector fully unpowered?? The Sony has a live circuit inside its box which I don't think is safe and is completing a circuit somewhere when power is put on the H2. The HDMI plug has, I believe, 5v power on pin 18. The CEC also has 3.3v on pin 13, but that can be disabled by the CEC disable cable. And, I think this early circuit in the Sony is blocking the GigaBlue when it is in 4K. So, I am trying to work out what it is and why it is happening?? I have hacked open an HDMI lead and could choc block rejoin with the pins 13 and 18 not connected and see what happens?? BANG?? I have yet to have another talk to Sony support, which is quick to access but should be after spending a shed load of dosh!!, about this rapid handshaking, I had a chat earlier in the week with a Sony engineer when I though it was a CEC issue and wasn't impressed - he claimed that Sony removed the HDMI CEC/Control option from the Function menu as it affected picture quality?? Really?? Other Sony PJs have that menu item. Also claimed that a 15m copper HDMI cable would be fine at 4K/60 HDR 4:4:4 etc etc. I've read repeatedly that 7.5m is about the limit. And then telling me how brilliant Nvidia Shield device is. A further suggestion from the avforum is to get a HDFury splitter - Vertex probably - which can solve EDID, CEC and HDCP issues. https://hdfury.com/product/vertex-4k60-444-600mhz/ 2. The Sony PJ EDID also seems to be well out of date with a date of 2013. Surely, the EDID should reflect the sate the equipment came into service?? I attach the EDID for the 2020 Marantz for a comparison?? So, any thoughts and ideas would be really useful. Sony590ESEDID2.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 7 hours ago, CRMS said: I have also checked the EDID files on each device. All accurately reflect when the equipment came into service. Except 1 item. The Sony 590ES which only went on sale a month or so ago. Its EDID is dated 2013. So not confidence building that the Sony EDID information is actually correct?? An experienced contributor has suggested on www.avforums.com that it is an EDID issue. I would agree its an edid issue . Looking at your component edid dates it is obvious some are hdcp 1.4 compliant and your 4k sources are hdcp2.2 [ as they should be] Ide try your dealer to see if he has a [cheaper than a vertex] integral to try so everything gets the anti piracy they need ; https://www.hdfury.eu/shop/hdfuryintegral/ While chasing one up ide feed the sony directly with your 18gbps cable [if feasible] to rule out the brand new hdmi2.1 marantz with its single 2.1 port .good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 10 hours ago, CRMS said: 2. The Sony PJ EDID also seems to be well out of date with a date of 2013. Surely, the EDID should reflect the sate the equipment came into service?? I attach the EDID for the 2020 Marantz for a comparison?? So, any thoughts and ideas would be really useful Firstly congratulations on the 590ES. It’s an outstanding projector. Please note that the software you used also states that the 590ES has a maximum resolution of 1920 x 1080 which is clearly wrong . Notwithstanding the accuracy of the software , I have had a situation where edid data didn’t make it through switches/ splitters and that was with a lesser know brand media player. If all plays well through the Marantz but not the splitter, the issue lay with the splitter, You could try the following: Use a 4K TV and replace the splitter with a 4K capable 2-way switch. This should not introduce EDID issues into the equation and the Marantz will be the switcher ( set to passthrough) If the Gigablue has a passthrough mode, that should be used to allow the 590ES to do the scaling - picture will look better this way for non-4K material . In fact all the gear should be set to passthrough if possible. HDMI Handshake Handshakes are a 2-way transaction. The splitter would be seeking an HDMI handshake from the projector and the projector responds ( or vice versa). The projector is behaving correctly. I would imagine Wyrestorm do it this way to reduce switching times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRMS Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Thanks for your comments. Integral is only 10.2Gbs, Vertex is 18GBs. So, I'll probably go with Vertex. Marantz to Sony direct works fine.. As I used before splitter but meant physical plugging and unplugging. Which I want to avoid. I don't have a 4K TV. Not sure if GigaBlue has pass through - it is the source and just outputs the desired resolution - 1080i, 720p, 1080p or 2160p. Or use a lower resolution than 2160p and let Sony upscale?? Still waiting for GB HDCP details. Will look for its EDID. I'm going to cut open an HDMI lead and use a chocolate block to reconnect. The I can play with the CEC, hot plug detect and 5v cores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 15 hours ago, CRMS said: Marantz to Sony direct works fine.. Then the issue is with the splitter or Gigablue. I had a similar problem with a Fetch TV, splitter and a Panasonic TV. In the end I stopped using Fetch TV. Someone suggested an EDID manager like Bluestream 111 but I never tried it. There always appears to be problems and tweaking involved down the track with EDID issues. 15 hours ago, CRMS said: I don't have a 4K TV You mentioned you tried 2020 LG TV which I presumed was 4k, I didn’t notice it was HD in your post. Anyway for a smallish size, 4K Tv is not that expensive. Otherwise there is the the cost of HD Fury or similar and a ton of inconvenience. 15 hours ago, CRMS said: Not sure if GigaBlue has pass through - it is the source and just outputs the desired resolution - 1080i, 720p, 1080p or 2160p. Or use a lower resolution than 2160p and let Sony upscale?? If you depend on it for 4K material, then it should be allowed to output 4K. If there is no 4K being played then I would set the output to 1080P. Sub 4K images will look better on both projector and TV this way . I have an Apple TV 4K that I use with my projector and I manually change resolution each time there is a change in source resolution (it doesn’t have video pass through either). Source resolution is easy to identify in that streaming services tell you if it’s 4K or HD ( 1080P). Picture quality is noticeably better on HD material upscaled by the Sony. I know it’s a bit extreme but it doesn’t take long and my wife is all for it too . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRMS Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Got the Vertex2. Just worked properly out of the box. But did display that Sony PJ didn't have an EDID table. Possibly due to 2013 age?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 1 hour ago, CRMS said: Got the Vertex2. Just worked properly out of the box. But did display that Sony PJ didn't have an EDID table. Possibly due to 2013 age?? Good to see you solved the problem. I wouldn’t take the readings you are getting to the bank. Sony PJ doesn’t support CEC but it communicates via EDID nevertheless. The Lumagen Radiance Pro for example reads the full capabilities of the Sony PJ via HDMI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRMS Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 The Vertex2 has also allocated the correct capabilities to the PJ. Which are way different to the EDID table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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