anewmission Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 so i have a denon 3808ci that i am running, i bypass the front two channels through an analog pre amp that i have and then i have that going into a stereo power amp the centre is connected to another power amp, single channel. the rears are being powered purely by the denon 3808ci. would it be worth upgrading to a newer avr or pre processor and then buy another stereo power amp for the rears? seems like the rear speakers sound abit thinner and weaker than the front three. the other idea i had was to have a dedicated sub for the low end of the rear speakers? i did add an extra sub into the mix allready for the low end of the centre channel . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) I....... (and a few others I'm sure).....are primed with all the answers you need. To give you the right ones though you will need to tell us more about the rest of your gear. Speakers? Amps? Subs? Room? Seems like you have stereo figured out so lets concentrate on M/Ch Do you want a newer Pre/Pro or AVR with ATMOS and 4K video support or not? Upgrade budget? To keep things simple regarding M/Ch use I would suggest setting all speakers to small and letting the sub(s) do 80hz and below. NO dedicated subs just for centre and rears. Maybe adding/reconfiguring/substituting/upgrading/changing the power amps too depending on what they are. Same deal with rear speakers. Your AVR is pretty decent so might be worth running Room EQ again too as rear speaker SQ issue may simply be a incorrect setting. Edited September 17, 2020 by JohnL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted September 17, 2020 Author Share Posted September 17, 2020 2 hours ago, JohnL said: I....... (and a few others I'm sure).....are primed with all the answers you need. To give you the right ones though you will need to tell us more about the rest of your gear. Speakers? Amps? Subs? Room? Seems like you have stereo figured out so lets concentrate on M/Ch Do you want a newer Pre/Pro or AVR with ATMOS and 4K video support or not? Upgrade budget? To keep things simple regarding M/Ch use I would suggest setting all speakers to small and letting the sub(s) do 80hz and below. NO dedicated subs just for centre and rears. Maybe adding/reconfiguring/substituting/upgrading/changing the power amps too depending on what they are. Same deal with rear speakers. Your AVR is pretty decent so might be worth running Room EQ again too as rear speaker SQ issue may simply be a incorrect setting. for the television room (this setup) using aaron ats5's, (mains) aaron cc240 (centre) and aaron sub 120, a pair of mission somethings as rears. wharfedale sub for centre low end. for the price i paid for the wharfedale i think its a really nice musical sub. the aaron sub is really just for films as it is not very musical but can move some serious air. i am still using a pioneer kuro plasma.. i still have 3 left. i had 7 at one point, so it is just 1080p however would be nice if the pre/pro was compatible with 4k, not really too interested in atmos and dtsx but i dont mind if those features are there just incase. i will upgrade tv to 8k oled once the price comes down. budget is not a huge issue, i would like to keep it under 5k emotiva is looking nice as some of the new models are modular so i could add an 8k card when needed. there was a nice krell also. the room has an arched ceiling, somehow it sounds great though, was not built for audio in mind. giant rug covering 80% of the floor, i have a really nice room correction microphone at the studio i record music at, so i could give that a go too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 (edited) Amps? Don't really understand why you use a sub with your centre and are considering using one with your rears....... They all already go plenty low enough for what they need to do. Sub is for LFE...........no LFE in centre and rears. Using subs at front end with AVR crossover at 80hz should sound great with your gear. Maybe a used set of CC-120's for rears.......... see "rabbitoh2005"'s Post here..... Edited September 18, 2020 by JohnL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 The Denon is plenty enough power to power the rear speakers so that wouldn't be the issue. tell us more about the front two Amps you are using for the front 3 channels the 2ch pre and how you have the two subs connected, and the cross over settings you are using as mentioned by John. sounds like it may be a synergy / settings issue, also are you using the room correction in the Denon? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 6 hours ago, JohnL said: Amps? Don't really understand why you use a sub with your centre and are considering using one with your rears....... They all already go plenty low enough for what they need to do. Sub is for LFE...........no LFE in centre and rears. Using subs at front end with AVR crossover at 80hz should sound great with your gear. Maybe a used set of CC-120's for rears.......... see "rabbitoh2005"'s Post here..... ahhh not all subs are just for lfe... especially musical subs such as rel's my front two speakers go down to 28hz with the matching sub, they go down well below 20hz so i use a sub similar to the way rel's are setup and let my centre speaker go down that low also it makes a difference, mainly when watching live concerts and things like the voice, american idol ect.. i think the main problem is probably the rear speakers, they are just cheapish missions made in asia.. having full range rears might help, if i can get my hands on some more ats5's in the dark timber finish then that would probably round everything out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said: The Denon is plenty enough power to power the rear speakers so that wouldn't be the issue. tell us more about the front two Amps you are using for the front 3 channels the 2ch pre and how you have the two subs connected, and the cross over settings you are using as mentioned by John. sounds like it may be a synergy / settings issue, also are you using the room correction in the Denon? so im using a yamaha p1250 mono for the centre, and for each main speaker i have a yamaha p2200 doing a kind of bi-amping into each speaker.. i dont like to use the term bi-amping. on the p2200's there is a daisychain output on each channel, so i have one left channel xlr going into the left p2200, that is daisychained into the other channel in the p2200 and then i am outputing both channels as a mono signal into the four binding posts on the aarons, doing the same thing with the right speaker so 3 yamaha power amps, the p2200's are outputting about 600watts into 8ohm for each speaker and the p1250 is outputting about 180watt i think. but then again all the aarons are 6ohm so i cant work out the wattage. yeah i have ysed the room correction on the denon. the mic is so crappy. little piece of plastic. i have also used a decent berringer room correction mic plugged into my laptop with some software they use in recording studios to find dead spots in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 That’s some grunt, so do you have one of the subs picking up the LFE signal? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 On 17/09/2020 at 10:26 PM, anewmission said: seems like the rear speakers sound abit thinner and weaker than the front three. Rerun your EQ/calibration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnL Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, anewmission said: ahhh not all subs are just for lfe... especially musical subs such as rel's my front two speakers go down to 28hz with the matching sub, they go down well below 20hz so i use a sub similar to the way rel's are setup and let my centre speaker go down that low also it makes a difference, mainly when watching live concerts and things like the voice, american idol ect.. i think the main problem is probably the rear speakers, they are just cheapish missions made in asia.. having full range rears might help, if i can get my hands on some more ats5's in the dark timber finish then that would probably round everything out AFAIK voices don't drop below 80hz........... but if that's your approach that's cool. However you have then given the big speakers that go low in your system subs.............. but the small rears, that would have potentially benefitted more, got nothing which probably explains what you are hearing. A big, fat front end and thinner, weaker rears!!!! Anyway.........as long as all your settings are correct I think your gear is fine and don't see a need to change the AVR...... May as well just get another set of ats5's as you mention and/or another sub or two and finish off your bass fetish!!!!!!!!.... Good Luck Edited September 19, 2020 by JohnL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 5 hours ago, JohnL said: AFAIK voices don't drop below 80hz........... but if that's your approach that's cool. That is what I understood as well but you can often get a more complete sound with a good sub - possibly due to harmonics in the studio. I haven't gone to great lengths to analyse it but but frequencies handled by the sub woofer do cover to varying degrees music ( not just deepest bass) , voice as well as sound effects . The more accurate the subs , the more accurate the overall sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted September 20, 2020 Author Share Posted September 20, 2020 22 hours ago, TP1 said: That is what I understood as well but you can often get a more complete sound with a good sub - possibly due to harmonics in the studio. I haven't gone to great lengths to analyse it but but frequencies handled by the sub woofer do cover to varying degrees music ( not just deepest bass) , voice as well as sound effects . The more accurate the subs , the more accurate the overall sound. Yeah even my cousin uses a rel sub with his Krix epicentrix centre speaker and that's even beefier than the Aaron 240 It definitely rounds out the sound. The missions are a 2.5 way, I can't remember the model but they are floorstanders.. I think even the pair of accusound floorstanders I have might win over the missions. I always found voices higher pitched with the accusounds.. that could be my hearing or apparently self medication can make you hear things a tone or two below or above what it should be. Haha Anyway time to change avr. My hdmi board keeps messing up on me. Now what to get... I'm thinking a modular emotiva but I haven't heard them and not sure of anyone in Sydney who still stocks them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted September 21, 2020 Author Share Posted September 21, 2020 (edited) On 17/09/2020 at 11:33 PM, JohnL said: I....... (and a few others I'm sure).....are primed with all the answers you need. To give you the right ones though you will need to tell us more about the rest of your gear. Speakers? Amps? Subs? Room? Seems like you have stereo figured out so lets concentrate on M/Ch Do you want a newer Pre/Pro or AVR with ATMOS and 4K video support or not? Upgrade budget? To keep things simple regarding M/Ch use I would suggest setting all speakers to small and letting the sub(s) do 80hz and below. NO dedicated subs just for centre and rears. Maybe adding/reconfiguring/substituting/upgrading/changing the power amps too depending on what they are. Same deal with rear speakers. Your AVR is pretty decent so might be worth running Room EQ again too as rear speaker SQ issue may simply be a incorrect setting. My avr is having issues with my htpc and I cannot work out what it is. I have tried different graphics cards. It happens on bootup, the changes in resolution I'm pretty sure. Blu-ray players and chromecast works fine. I'm wondering if changing operating systems will fix this. I just really don't want to use Windows if I can help it. Currently running libreelec as an operating system for Kodi on my htpc. And it does everything I want it to, apart from dsd over hdmi. Though I don't think that will ever work from a pc. I could be and hope I am wrong but it's looking that way Edited September 21, 2020 by anewmission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted September 21, 2020 Author Share Posted September 21, 2020 This is driving me insane, please somebody help? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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