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Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread


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1 hour ago, muon* said:

I guess smack in the middle of the green zone, whatever that is.

 

But trust me that with 10ohm cathode resistors and that plate voltage 35ma is the common setting used.

 

If running them colder you will get a more relaxed sound but maybe too relaxed (system dependent) and running them hotter they live a shorter time and might be prone to instability quicker if there is an issue.

 

1 minute ago, xlr8or said:

As long as the selected plate current runs the tube in the green zone it's fine. The 440v is fixed and cannot change. It's an inherent feature of the R8 and represents the B+ going to the power tubes. I would advise using 35mA as it's only at 61.6% of total power dissipation of the tube and at the lower end of the green zone.

 

Thanks guys. I (finally) understand it now.  35mA it is. Meter has been ordered.  👍👍👍

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Just AAMOI, the bias on all four (KT88) tubes is totally stable again today, so I think I can rule out a problem with the R8 itself. Fingers still crossed. And I still intend to get those resistors fitted.

 

Although the sound of the KT88s isn't for me, I am impressed at how much more grunt the amp has when using them - a big reduction on the volume control for my usual listening levels. But it#s still EL34s for me I think - I am not lacking power with my speakers/room/music/listening level preferences.

 

I also like the way the KT88s look - very 'purposeful'. But the amp is for listening, not looking :) 

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I am fortunate to have a very good guitar shop not too far away from where I live, and since guitar amps are invariably tube amps, the shop also sells a wide variety of tubes. They are exclusively current production, however. So today, I have acquired a matched quad of four Tung Sol EL34B tubes, which, by all accounts, are not too bad for current production tubes. I just couldn't listen to the KT88s really, and I did try, but they are not for me. Or at least, the stock Willsenton KT88s are not, and I have never heard any others.  I went this route as an alternative to replacing the one faulty EH 6CA7 Fat Boy, or buying a fresh quad of those. Now that I have the four EL34Bs, I will probably just get a single EH 6CA7 replacement. My intention ultimately is to get a matched quad of NOS EL34s and I suspect that the new TS EL34Bs will do for me for now. Also, I am wary about spending serious wedge on four NOS tubes until I have had those resistors fitted.

 

The new TS EL34Bs are installed, biased to the centre of the meter, and have approximately 30 minutes of burn-in on them ;)  But you know what -- I can tell immediately how much more they are to my taste and how much more I am enjoying them than the KT88s. Immediately.  I will recheck the bias in a couple of hours and adjust if needed, and then keep an eagle eye on them for a few days just to be on the safe side.

 

Thanks, yet again, for the help I have received from this amazing thread. I would be totally lost without you guys! 

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OK - what may be useful info . . .  I took a close look at the suspect EH 6CA7 tube. It has a bad case of dandruff on the inside!  At first I thought the little marks were on the outside of the glass, but they are on the inside, and they move around if I shake the tube. A bit like a really cr&p snowglobe. I checked the other tubes and none of them have any traces of this.

 

So, any ideas as to a) what the white residue is and b) what can cause it? Clearly something is amiss with this one tube.

 

I have marked in red one or two of the examples, for clarity, but you can see plenty all over the tube.

 

2021-05-06_15-48-02.png.447c11f310f657224da7a66b4c2fb2e0.png

 

2021-05-06_15-47-32.png.cf2132f0dbcd67646f7b98e26d42aad9.png

 

Edit: I was just showing / boring Mrs Zed with this and notice the dandruff had moved about quite a bit and seems to be breaking up into smaller particles as I handle the tube. See this photo:

 

2021-05-06_15-58-25.png.cb27461aedf69f2e799027bf26671627.png

 

 

Edited by Zed Zed
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5 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

I am fortunate to have a very good guitar shop not too far away from where I live, and since guitar amps are invariably tube amps, the shop also sells a wide variety of tubes. They are exclusively current production, however. So today, I have acquired a matched quad of four Tung Sol EL34B tubes, which, by all accounts, are not too bad for current production tubes. I just couldn't listen to the KT88s really, and I did try, but they are not for me. Or at least, the stock Willsenton KT88s are not, and I have never heard any others.  I went this route as an alternative to replacing the one faulty EH 6CA7 Fat Boy, or buying a fresh quad of those. Now that I have the four EL34Bs, I will probably just get a single EH 6CA7 replacement. My intention ultimately is to get a matched quad of NOS EL34s and I suspect that the new TS EL34Bs will do for me for now. Also, I am wary about spending serious wedge on four NOS tubes until I have had those resistors fitted.

 

The new TS EL34Bs are installed, biased to the centre of the meter, and have approximately 30 minutes of burn-in on them ;)  But you know what -- I can tell immediately how much more they are to my taste and how much more I am enjoying them than the KT88s. Immediately.  I will recheck the bias in a couple of hours and adjust if needed, and then keep an eagle eye on them for a few days just to be on the safe side.

 

Thanks, yet again, for the help I have received from this amazing thread. I would be totally lost without you guys! 

 

The TS EL34Bs are still my number one out of many power tubes I've rolled in the R8. I wanted to push you to get them a while ago, but you were enjoying your EH. Now the question I have been wondering: How do they compare/differ from the EH 6CA7? The 34Bs are my "one to beat" which I can compare everything else, and the EH 6CA7 is one of the few power tubes I have not yet tried, so curious to hear your thoughts.

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36 minutes ago, echorec said:

 

The TS EL34Bs are still my number one out of many power tubes I've rolled in the R8. I wanted to push you to get them a while ago, but you were enjoying your EH. Now the question I have been wondering: How do they compare/differ from the EH 6CA7? The 34Bs are my "one to beat" which I can compare everything else, and the EH 6CA7 is one of the few power tubes I have not yet tried, so curious to hear your thoughts.

 

I am glad you asked! Now it is early days and my TS EL34Bs have only a few hours on them, so please bear that in mind. HST, WOW!  Just WOW! I am blown away. They have the edge on my EH 6CA7 Fat Boys. The midrange is even more lovely and so smooth and euphonic and musical. The top is clear without a hint of strain or stridency. Human voice is a little more forward, but not too much, and has an even greater sense of realism. And the bass is, to my taste, terrific. It is deep enough and has a fabulous 'organic' and 'fruity' quality, which I like. It may tend a little to plumpness but personally I like bass that way as it is more reflective of the kind of bass I hear in real life. I dislike the 'dry', 'fast' bass that seems to be the modern trend. But remember my musical tastes of course!! For those who rejoice to Led Zep etc, then maybe these EL34Bs would not be what they want.

 

Personally, I would not recommend that you try the EH 6CA7 Fat Boys (unless you really want to just to scratch the itch). Not because they are not great tubes, because I think they are, but simply because they are not massively different to the TS's. Like I say above - the latter 'have the edge' and they do, to my ears (and in the context of my tastes and other gear), beat then in all the parameters which are important to me. Knowing that you and I seem to share our tastes very closely, I suspect your view of the EH 6CA7 Fat Boys would be similar to mine. A great tube, but less great than the TS EL34B.

 

As you may have read, I have been using the Willsenton KT88s for a couple of days, but they are everything that is opposite to what I have said above. In the end I couldn't take the sound any more and had to drive out to a local guitar shop earlier today and buy myself a perfectly matched pair of the Tung Sols. I am sure I will eventually try some NOS EL34s. If they beat these Tung Sols, I will have died and gone directly to heaven :)

 

BTW, I am 'all Tung Sol' for the moment. I have the four EL34s, three of their current production 6SN7s and two NOS 6C8G 'Black Bottoms' in the 6SL7 positions. The latter will change when those ShuGuang Black Treasures eventually find their way off the boat. Can't be long now. I will burn in the EL34Bs for 70 or 80 hours before I install the ShuGuangs.

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48 minutes ago, muon* said:

When you say this are you talking about current production only?

 

 

Yes, new production. Would love to get some vintage 6CA7s at some point, but my gear priorities have changed and I have so many tubes that my wife is starting to become suspicious. 😅

 

20 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

 

I am glad you asked! Now it is early days and my TS EL34Bs have only a few hours on them, so please bear that in mind. HST, WOW!  Just WOW! I am blown away. They have the edge on my EH 6CA7 Fat Boys. The midrange is even more lovely and so smooth and euphonic and musical. The top is clear without a hint of strain or stridency. Human voice is a little more forward, but not too much, and has an even greater sense of realism. And the bass is, to my taste, terrific. It is deep enough and has a fabulous 'organic' and 'fruity' quality, which I like. It may tend a little to plumpness but personally I like bass that way as it is more reflective of the kind of bass I hear in real life. I dislike the 'dry', 'fast' bass that seems to be the modern trend. But remember my musical tastes of course!! For those who rejoice to Led Zep etc, then maybe these EL34Bs would not be what they want.

 

Personally, I would not recommend that you try the EH 6CA7 Fat Boys (unless you really want to just to scratch the itch). Not because they are not great tubes, because I think they are, but simply because they are not massively different to the TS's. Like I say above - the latter 'have the edge' and they do, to my ears (and in the context of my tastes and other gear), beat then in all the parameters which are important to me. Knowing that you and I seem to share our tastes very closely, I suspect your view of the EH 6CA7 Fat Boys would be similar to mine. A great tube, but less great than the TS EL34B.

 

This is perfect, thank you! Your description of the TS EL34B sound in the R8 matches my general opinion. For sure, they have the best midrange out of the 7 quads I've rolled (all new production except the RFTs). Their midrange is the most liquid and three dimensional. Some changes I experienced in my 34Bs after I first bought them: The soundstage opened up after a week or two. They have the most natural and largest soundstage out of all my power tube rolling. The top end became clearer and the midrange also "bloomed" over that first two weeks. Yes, they get better. Enjoy!

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1 hour ago, echorec said:

 

Some changes I experienced in my 34Bs after I first bought them: The soundstage opened up after a week or two. They have the most natural and largest soundstage out of all my power tube rolling. The top end became clearer and the midrange also "bloomed" over that first two weeks. Yes, they get better. Enjoy!

 

I have already noticed that huge soundstage!  I am very excited to hear how these develop when they have 80 or more hours on them. :) 

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9 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

OK - what may be useful info . . .  I took a close look at the suspect EH 6CA7 tube. It has a bad case of dandruff on the inside!  At first I thought the little marks were on the outside of the glass, but they are on the inside, and they move around if I shake the tube. A bit like a really cr&p snowglobe. I checked the other tubes and none of them have any traces of this.

 

So, any ideas as to a) what the white residue is and b) what can cause it? Clearly something is amiss with this one tube.

 

I have marked in red one or two of the examples, for clarity, but you can see plenty all over the tube.

 

2021-05-06_15-48-02.png.447c11f310f657224da7a66b4c2fb2e0.png

 

2021-05-06_15-47-32.png.cf2132f0dbcd67646f7b98e26d42aad9.png

 

Edit: I was just showing / boring Mrs Zed with this and notice the dandruff had moved about quite a bit and seems to be breaking up into smaller particles as I handle the tube. See this photo:

 

2021-05-06_15-58-25.png.cb27461aedf69f2e799027bf26671627.png

 

 

Why is there a silvery coating inside a vacuum tube? (adventures-in-audio.com)

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11 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

OK - what may be useful info . . .  I took a close look at the suspect EH 6CA7 tube. It has a bad case of dandruff on the inside!  At first I thought the little marks were on the outside of the glass, but they are on the inside, and they move around if I shake the tube. A bit like a really cr&p snowglobe. I checked the other tubes and none of them have any traces of this.

 

So, any ideas as to a) what the white residue is and b) what can cause it? Clearly something is amiss with this one tube.

 

I have marked in red one or two of the examples, for clarity, but you can see plenty all over the tube.

 

2021-05-06_15-48-02.png.447c11f310f657224da7a66b4c2fb2e0.png

 

2021-05-06_15-47-32.png.cf2132f0dbcd67646f7b98e26d42aad9.png

 

Edit: I was just showing / boring Mrs Zed with this and notice the dandruff had moved about quite a bit and seems to be breaking up into smaller particles as I handle the tube. See this photo:

 

2021-05-06_15-58-25.png.cb27461aedf69f2e799027bf26671627.png

 

 

Looks like flakes from the mica spacers.  I haven't seen this before on any of my tubes.  Yours must be special 🙂  Or maybe you need to change shampoo?

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It could also be flakes coming off the anode plates or heater wire. I've seen this before for new production tubes only. Vintage ones nope. Well not yet any way. What all this points to is the high likelihood that one of the operating points on the amp is outside spec. It could be the heater or it could be the B+ just going to the V2 position. For the tube to fail in 3.5 months (Feb-May) suggests to me the amp is the main contributor. 

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12 hours ago, BLAH BLAH said:

 

The silvery coating is OK - the residue in the tubes is a sort of flakey substance. Googling suggests that it is most often caused by a vacuum leak from the tube, which apparently can have various causes. Obviously, I have no idea at all what it could be ;) I am betting for now it is a faulty tube (because that is a less painful option) and am keeping my eye closely on the bias and, of course, the tubes themselves. If one of the new EL34s starts to exhibit the same problem, then it has to be the amp. I am planning to take it in at some point to have that resistor fitted so they guy can check it thoroughly for other potential problems at the same time. 

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One thing to mention, @Zed Zed, is that during my research of the EH 6CA7, I came across many warnings that this tube is or was notoriously unreliable. There was even one tube dealer that stopped carrying them because of too many failures. It seems that quality has improved since those posts, however. Do yours happen to have date codes?

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49 minutes ago, echorec said:

One thing to mention, @Zed Zed, is that during my research of the EH 6CA7, I came across many warnings that this tube is or was notoriously unreliable. There was even one tube dealer that stopped carrying them because of too many failures. It seems that quality has improved since those posts, however. Do yours happen to have date codes?

 

I will check the tubes and boxes for codes and report back.

 

Unfortunately, no date codes. Nothing on the tube itself other than the manufacturer's logo and branding.  Nothing on the box other than the little sticker with the test result data and a bar code. Searching the bar code number returns nothing. I bought the tubes from vivatubes.com so I think I will contact them and see what they say. I'm not especially bothered about a refund or replacement (although I won't say no) because the TS EL34Bs I have replaced them with are, IMO, superior.

 

EDIT: OK, I have emailed the seller and sent him the photos I posted here. I'll update the thread on the response I get which, hopefully, will be positive.

 

EDIT 2: The dealer you mention is our very own Jim of ValvesnMore I think?  Jim McShane - is that the guy? Certainly, assuming for now that my issue is the tube and not the amp, my experience seems to bear out the unreliability thing - just 3 months old, not abused etc.

 

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1 hour ago, Zed Zed said:

 

I will check the tubes and boxes for codes and report back.

 

Unfortunately, no date codes. Nothing on the tube itself other than the manufacturer's logo and branding.  Nothing on the box other than the little sticker with the test result data and a bar code. Searching the bar code number returns nothing. I bought the tubes from vivatubes.com so I think I will contact them and see what they say. I'm not especially bothered about a refund or replacement (although I won't say no) because the TS EL34Bs I have replaced them with are, IMO, superior.

 

EDIT: OK, I have emailed the seller and sent him the photos I posted here. I'll update the thread on the response I get which, hopefully, will be positive.

 

EDIT 2: The dealer you mention is our very own Jim of ValvesnMore I think?  Jim McShane - is that the guy? Certainly, assuming for now that my issue is the tube and not the amp, my experience seems to bear out the unreliability thing - just 3 months old, not abused etc.

 

 

The more I re-read reviews and anecdotes on various forums, the more I realize date codes probably wouldn't matter because premature failures are reported all the way back to the 2000s. I think the seller referenced in that thread is: http://www.mcshanedesign.net/ , not the same guy that does the videos. He is still, as of last month, not selling those tubes for the same reason. He warranties tubes for 90 days, so that says a lot about his feelings on reliability of these. I only mention all this because premature failures were a common theme when I looked into these tubes and were the main reason I never ended up trying them. You'll still need to figure out what happened with yours and, fingers crossed, hopefully it was just the tube and not the R8.

 

 

Edited by echorec
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2 hours ago, echorec said:

 

The more I re-read reviews and anecdotes on various forums, the more I realize date codes probably wouldn't matter because premature failures are reported all the way back to the 2000s. I think the seller referenced in that thread is: http://www.mcshanedesign.net/ , not the same guy that does the videos. He is still, as of last month, not selling those tubes for the same reason. He warranties tubes for 90 days, so that says a lot about his feelings on reliability of these. I only mention all this because premature failures were a common theme when I looked into these tubes and were the main reason I never ended up trying them. You'll still need to figure out what happened with yours and, fingers crossed, hopefully it was just the tube and not the R8.

 

 

 

Yeah, he'd have been stung on mine if he'd offered a 90 day warranty on them - it failed at 89 days! :)  It's interesting that two of my tubes (the Tung Sol 6C8Gs) are 70 years old and still going strong, while the 89 *day* old tube is kaput. You may recall that I liked the Tung Sol 6C8Gs so much that I bought another pair as 'backup' in case of failure. Seems like I should have bought a couple of spare 6CA7s instead ;) 

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Jim McShane is very conservative and over criticises every singke modern tube he comes across for the exact same reasons above. He's been doing it for years and has been allowed to get away with it because all of us believe him. He does it so you can buy 'fully stress' tested tubes from him that have been screened for long hours in operation to confirm they won't fail but he still offers a limited 90-day warranty. Is that because he's placed the tubes under stress already? I bet you all didn't know he doesn't sell vintage types as he won't put them through the same 'stress' tests. He used to sell some Jan NOS stock made in the 1970's and 1980's that he claimed didn't need the stress test because they had already been screened by the US government. 🤣

 

Also, there are misnomers emerging in this thread that Tung-Sol vintage and Tung-Sol modern are considered to be the same. They're NOT 2 of the same. Tung-Sol modern is a trademark of Ekectro Harmonix Russia. All the tubes are being made in the exact same factory. They're for audiophool use only and nothing more or less. They don't go through any stringent test requirements before leaving the factory. We live in a society today where money is plentiful and most items we buy are consumable. Consider modern tubes in this category. I would even go as far as saying most amps coming out of China are in the same category. Expect failures in both camps. They're here to stay. Enjoy what you have for the time you have it working. When it gives way replace it. 🙂

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Back to the R8. If any of you toob rollers have spare pocket change available and don't want to buy consumable toobs here are some adorable looking 6SN7 subs from the yesteryear GEC Hammersmith UK factory that will probably outlast you and your kids.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CV1102-GEC-true-NOS-x-rare-military-triode-akin-6F8G-one-pair-/203303070000

Edited by xlr8or
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2 hours ago, xlr8or said:

Back to the R8. If any of you toob rollers have spare pocket change available and don't want to buy consumable toobs here are some adorable looking 6SN7 subs from the yesteryear GEC Hammersmith UK factory that will probably outlast you and your kids.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CV1102-GEC-true-NOS-x-rare-military-triode-akin-6F8G-one-pair-/203303070000

 

They are lovely - and not all that expensive. About 50% more expensive than the new ShuGuang Black Treasures I just bought for the 6SN7 position. Great looking tubes too - very similar to my Tung Sol 6C8Gs (which are totally a-ma-zing!). 

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2 hours ago, xlr8or said:

Back to the R8. If any of you toob rollers have spare pocket change available and don't want to buy consumable toobs here are some adorable looking 6SN7 subs from the yesteryear GEC Hammersmith UK factory that will probably outlast you and your kids.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CV1102-GEC-true-NOS-x-rare-military-triode-akin-6F8G-one-pair-/203303070000

 

I bet these would kill any new production valves. I would save money, buy these and just enjoy the music 😊

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35 minutes ago, Jehuty said:

 

I bet these would kill any new production valves. I would save money, buy these and just enjoy the music 😊

 

They were specifically developed for use in the Avro Lancasters during WW2. Apparently, they were the most sophisticated comms valve of the time period.

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