Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread

[xlr8or]

16 minutes ago, muon* said:

 

Are you sure, the impedance is very benign if on the 4 ohm taps.

 

Granted the VTL would muscle them like an Amp doing a tango with Tom Cruise

 

Is helpful know what the speakers are.

 

Those big phase angle shifts at 28Hz and 75Hz (this particular dip is most of concern) won't cut the mustard with the R8. That frequency needs a lot of SS amperage in reserve to get the speaker to sing.

 

Edit: Agree, we need confirmation from @jomjom the specific Dynaudio's that are in use.

 

Double edit: Manufacturer specifies 170watt amplification desired.

Edited March 16, 2021 by xlr8or

[muon*]

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Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[xlr8or]

If the points of maximum +/- phase angle shift also coincide with the points of least impedance then not will only one of those VTL's be needed but 4 in bridged mode will most likely be required to allow us to hear any bass registers down low.

Edited March 16, 2021 by xlr8or

[Zed Zed]

21 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

 

Those big phase angle shifts at 28Hz and 75Hz (this particular dip is most of concern) won't cut the mustard with the R8. That frequency needs a lot of SS amperage in reserve to get the speaker to sing.

 

Edit: Agree, we need confirmation from @jomjom the specific Dynaudio's that are in use.

 

Double edit: Manufacturer specifies 170watt amplification desired.

 

The speakers' FR is nowhere near 28Hz though, being +/-3dB at 45Hz, so will that big phase angle shift matter? Agree the 75Hz shift could be of concern.

 

170 watts is the maximum power the speakers are rated for - they don't seem to specify a lower wattage.  But the bottom line is still that if the OP only needs 80dB average, then these speakers are probably OK with the R8 (depending on usage conditions). If a speaker/amp combination can play the desired SPL cleanly, with some allowance for headroom, any additional power is just left on the table, unused but paid for. We need more information.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Zed Zed]

13 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

If the points of maximum +/- phase angle shift also coincide with the points of least impedance then not will only one of those VTL's be needed but 4 in bridged mode will most likely be required to allow us to hear any bass registers down low.

 

Haha. That will cheer up the OP   

[xlr8or]

I always use this as a guide and have spoken to Paul about it on numerous occasions before. The 102dB value for me says it all as does the flabby bass part.

 

Posted by Paul Joppa on August 05, 1999 at 21:08:11:

While I certainly don't want to suggest that science is everything, there are two points about SET amps that are highly predictable:

1) They are usually low power.
You want typically 102dB capability for fully satisfactory sound.
The amp adds 10*log(watts) dB to the speaker sensitivity. (base 10 logarithm) Some examples:

     45 tube 2W = 3dB wants 99dB speaker
     2A3 tube 3.5W = 5dB wants 97dB speaker
     300B amp 8W = 9dB wants 93dB speaker

 88dB speaker wants 14dB = 25W
 90dB speaker wants 12dB = 16W

You can have lots of fun with less power, if your room is tiny and/or you like chamber music or little-girl-with-acoustic-guitar music, but this is the standard minimum.

2) Most SET amps are without feedback. Triode amps without feedback, SE or push-pull, have a damping factor of 2 or so, not the 50-1000 of heaviily fed-back sand amps. This means the bass resonances of the speaker are "loosened up" a little - expect the bass to change! Speakers whose bass is a little too quick and tight with a feedback amp are likely to come alive with a no-feedback amp, while flabby bass will just get worse.

Edited March 16, 2021 by xlr8or

[Zed Zed]

32 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

I always use this guide and have spoken to Paul about it on numerous occasions before. The 102dB value for me says it all.

 

Posted by Paul Joppa on August 05, 1999 at 21:08:11:

While I certainly don't want to suggest that science is everything, there are two points about SET amps that are highly predictable:

1) They are usually low power.
You want typically 102dB capability for fully satisfactory sound.
The amp adds 10*log(watts) dB to the speaker sensitivity. (base 10 logarithm) Some examples:

     45 tube 2W = 3dB wants 99dB speaker
     2A3 tube 3.5W = 5dB wants 97dB speaker
     300B amp 8W = 9dB wants 93dB speaker

 88dB speaker wants 14dB = 25W
 90dB speaker wants 12dB = 16W

You can have lots of fun with less power, if your room is tiny and/or you like chamber music or little-girl-with-acoustic-guitar music, but this is the standard minimum.

2) Most SET amps are without feedback. Triode amps without feedback, SE or push-pull, have a damping factor of 2 or so, not the 50-1000 of heaviily fed-back sand amps. This means the bass resonances of the speaker are "loosened up" a little - expect the bass to change! Speakers whose bass is a little too quick and tight with a feedback amp are likely to come alive with a no-feedback amp, while flabby bass will just get worse.

 

What does he say about listening distance from speaker (which is more important IMO than room size)? It's true that a 90dB speaker needs 16 watts to deliver 102dB, but that is at 1 metre. Given that the least (realistic) distance from the speaker is likely to be 2m, then that results in a 6dB drop, to 96dB or 63 watts to get back to 102dB. Those data are also for a single amp driving a single speaker, but almost everyone has two (stereo) amps and two speakers which combine to produce the overall SPL, so we can effectively reduce the required wattage accordingly. 

 

HST, I don't really agree that 102dB is 'the standard minimum' - as Paul says, it depends on [listening distance] room size and the type of music played, not to mention how loud the individual prefers to listen at. I don't think there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this question, just 'it depends'. Since the OP has not (yet) given us the data needed to form a definitive conclusion, all we can do is speculate. Interesting to do that though

 

I'd be really interested to hear how many members ever hit 102dB peaks on normal listening sessions. I know that I don't come anywhere near to that when listening to music, but I do in my home theatre which has massive amplification (300 watts per channel for the three 100dB JBL LCR speakers and 100-200 watts each for the other 8 speakers plus a combined 6,000 watts for the subwoofers).  In truth, the HT can achieve the cinema Reference standard of 105dB peaks (85dB average) but I find that too loud and have calibrated for 100dB (peak) which is my usual listening/viewing level. 

 

IMO many people 'over amp' their systems, believing that somehow having power that is never used makes some sort of difference. But the reality is that if a user calls for, say, 85dB at his usual listening distance and that takes, say, 20 watts including 3dB 'headroom allowance', then that is all that is needed. Having an amp that can deliver 100 watts delivers nothing extra. Clearly the converse is true - if it takes 100 watts to achieve the desired SPL, then a 20 watt amp won't cut it. 

 

I'd always agree though that if in doubt, go for more power not less. But the best idea, for me anyway, is to go for the power that is needed.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Zed Zed

[muon*]

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Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[Zed Zed]

2 hours ago, muon* said:

I think room size is more important as the speakers have to load the room well for a decent result, otherwise distance will not matter much.

 

Yes, many would agree with you on that.  And, if taken to extremes, so would I! But we are talking domestic spaces and few people have rooms of concert hall proportions. This is especially true in Europe, where most rooms are relatively small compared with the USA where they are often bigger. (IDK about Australia, sorry). In what I would call 'normal' sized rooms, I stand by my assertion that listening distance is more relevant to what we are discussing. And a closer distance has other benefits too - near field listening removes a lot of the influence of the room on the final sound. And, of course, the single most important component in any system is the room itself. It is certainly the 'component' that has the most influence on the sound we hear (qv Floyd Toole etc) and impacts on what we hear far, far more than any electronics in the system. The room is also the component that is least addressed in the search for better SQ. Few people have properly treated rooms for example and most are listening in conditions which are undesirable, especially in terms of unwanted first reflections and so on. But that is a whole different rabbit hole.  

 

I take your point about room loading, but don't think that it is an issue for many people, using relatively small standmount or floorstanding speakers (as most do, including the OP which started this line of discussion). It brings me to the whole issue of the use of subwoofers which, IMO, are almost mandatory if one wishes to reproduce most music in the way intended. But many audiophiles would rather poke out their eye with a cactus than use a subwoofer (I have no idea why).  

 

We also need to consider that much of the recorded music we listen to has been mixed and mastered in small rooms, using relatively small nearfield speakers, but again, that is a discussion for elsewhere.

 

It brings us back to the central point though: at this time, none of us has the faintest idea of the OP's room size, nor his preferences, so it is next to impossible, IMO, to answer his question. If he has a small room and mostly enjoys small-scale acoustic music at 'pleasant' SPLs, then I would postulate that the R8 would work for him. If he has a cavernous room and enjoys Glam Rock, then not so much. (In which case he also has the wrong speakers anyway IMO).

 

EDIT: I do agree that matching the speakers to room size makes total sense. Small room, small speakers work fine. Huge room, large speakers needed. Converse is true as well - I have been in small rooms with massive speakers and the result has been dreadful.  Comes down to system matching, as always. We never listen to just one component.

 

EDIT 2: According to the UK's LABC, the average size of living room in the UK today is just 17.09 sq m.  That equates to a room just 5m x 3.4m x 2.4m (16' 5" x 11' 2" x 8' for USA readers). By any standards, that is not a large room. (Source: https://www.labc.co.uk/news/what-average-house-size-uk#:~:text=The average living room is,for the first time ever.).

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Zed Zed
Clarification

[muon*]

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Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[jomjom]

Greatly appreciate everyone’s input and knowledge.

Atm my speakers are dynaudio c1,and special 40,I do swap them occasionally all depends on my listening moods.

My room is about 13 foot x 14 foot and total of 13 acoustic panel,and a carpet.Love listening to jaz,vocal jaz,accoustic,occasionally on classical and around 75 to 80 dB,sometimes I really like to crank it  up further especially when listening to Latin jazz.

 

 I guess a little headroom will be usable when needed.

 

With the weight of r8 being 30kilos (same weight with prinaluna evo 400)I would suspect it is a high current output transformer.

Just an example the Octave 40se weigh 18kiloc please don’t quote me on this  im only going through memory,and has no issues pushing these speakers.

 

Off course I’m only speculating with these and have no actual facts,thus my seek of guidance.

 I will keep you posted if what I do end up.

 

You guys rock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jomjom]

Schiit freya in my first introductory to tube pre amplifier actually second,and using a very capable ss amp.IMO nothing does it like tube does,the vocal in front stage is well textured with transients of instruments in the mix really gives me chill,and knods i want more.

 

I have no doubts r8 is a great tube integrated amplifier,for the cost it’s a bargain,Thus peak my interest.

 

 

[muon*]

.............

Edited July 23, 2021 by muon*

[jt007]

hey guys, I know this is a Willsenton R8 thread, but I am wondering if anyone has tried out the single-ended Willsenton R800i (300b with either 845 or 805 output tubes)?

[xlr8or]

4 hours ago, muon* said:

 

Given your room size it would work OK for the music and levels you listen at, bass wouldn't be as tight as with an amp that produces current on demand, if I follow Kirk's better understanding of those plots.....but is that a deal breaker? only you could answer that.

 

Just adding to @muon*'s excellent feedback here, yes, the Dynaudio C1's and special 40's will work with the R8; however, the R8 won't deliver the current you're seeking to drive the C1's and special 40's hard.

 

A tube amp with output power transformers such as the R8 is not designed with the same design philosophy as a SS amp to deliver current for its power delivery mode with lower speaker impedances. It works with voltage and higher speaker impedance to deliver its power. This means the current demand is low and the complete opposite of how most SS amps function.

 

Also, what needs to be considered is that the majority of speakers sold today need SS amps to make the flabby bass sound dynamic. They are manufactured with SS amps in mind delivering a minimum power rating that often far exceeds the maximum power rating of tube amps. The low damping values of tube amps also don't suit these speaker types particularly well. See the Paul Joppa post above.

 

My advice here is to borrow a few tube amps and have a listen to them first before committing to any purchase. See if they work with the Dynaudio's. If they do then you know which way you need to move forward.

Edited March 17, 2021 by xlr8or

[jomjom]

5 hours ago, xlr8or said:

 

Just adding to @muon*'s excellent feedback here, yes, the Dynaudio C1's and special 40's will work with the R8; however, the R8 won't deliver the current you're seeking to drive the C1's and special 40's hard.

 

A tube amp with output power transformers such as the R8 is not designed with the same design philosophy as a SS amp to deliver current for its power delivery mode with lower speaker impedances. It works with voltage and higher speaker impedance to deliver its power. This means the current demand is low and the complete opposite of how most SS amps function.

 

Also, what needs to be considered is that the majority of speakers sold today need SS amps to make the flabby bass sound dynamic. They are manufactured with SS amps in mind delivering a minimum power rating that often far exceeds the maximum power rating of tube amps. The low damping values of tube amps also don't suit these speaker types particularly well. See the Paul Joppa post above.

 

My advice here is to borrow a few tube amps and have a listen to them first before committing to any purchase. See if they work with the Dynaudio's. If they do then you know which way you need to move forward.

Wow thank you for all the valuable feedback in such short time folks. I guess I’ll let it sink in..maybe one day when I have a more efficient speakers I’ll comeback to the r8.

[xlr8or]

8 hours ago, jt007 said:

hey guys, I know this is a Willsenton R8 thread, but I am wondering if anyone has tried out the single-ended Willsenton R800i (300b with either 845 or 805 output tubes)?

 

I don't own this amp nor have I heard it but if it helps I have reviewed its design topology and it looks really good. I have also heard and owned similar amps from Sun Valley and Cary Audio Design that have employed the same design topology.

 

The part that really stands out is a 300B driving a 805 or 845. I like the availability of 4, 8 and 16ohm taps. Also, the fact that it offers a dedicated pre-in section is impressive. The nett weight is also 42kg, which appears to suggest some heavy iron has also been used for the OPTs.

 

On the not so impressive side is the use of the 12AX7 as an input tube. I would have much preferred the use of a 6SN7 octal over a 12AX7 9-pin mini in this position as the 12AX7 has high mu and is often quite noisy. There are ways around this though including the use of triple mica and short box plate vintage types in this position.

 

Edit: Further, the cost of acquiring 300B, 805 and 845 vintage types for use in the R800i will also be prohibitive for most owners with costs approaching 4 times the amp's cost. Just the same Chinese modern production variants that are far cheaper are also great sounding.

Edited March 17, 2021 by xlr8or

[Zed Zed]

10 hours ago, jomjom said:

Greatly appreciate everyone’s input and knowledge.

Atm my speakers are dynaudio c1,and special 40,I do swap them occasionally all depends on my listening moods.

My room is about 13 foot x 14 foot and total of 13 acoustic panel,and a carpet.Love listening to jaz,vocal jaz,accoustic,occasionally on classical and around 75 to 80 dB,sometimes I really like to crank it  up further especially when listening to Latin jazz.

 

 I guess a little headroom will be usable when needed.

 

With the weight of r8 being 30kilos (same weight with prinaluna evo 400)I would suspect it is a high current output transformer.

Just an example the Octave 40se weigh 18kiloc please don’t quote me on this  im only going through memory,and has no issues pushing these speakers.

 

Off course I’m only speculating with these and have no actual facts,thus my seek of guidance.

 I will keep you posted if what I do end up.

 

You guys rock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback. Given your room size and musical tastes and preferred listening levels, I'd say that the R8 would have no trouble with your system. My own musical tastes are similar to yours, as are my listening levels, but my room is much bigger and my R8 drives my speakers (89dB/1 watt) very, very nicely indeed. And I use my 8 ohm speakers on the 4 ohm taps which limits the power output, as well as using Triode mode more or less exclusively, which limits it even more. Your Latin jazz, which you like to play louder might also benefit from the extra ooomph of Ultralinear mode too.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do and if you get a Willsenton R8, be sure to come back and tell us how you get on with it!

[Zed Zed]

10 hours ago, jomjom said:

Schiit freya in my first introductory to tube pre amplifier actually second,and using a very capable ss amp.IMO nothing does it like tube does,the vocal in front stage is well textured with transients of instruments in the mix really gives me chill,and knods i want more.

 

I have no doubts r8 is a great tube integrated amplifier,for the cost it’s a bargain,Thus peak my interest.

 

 

 

I listen to vocals a lot (female and male) and the R8 is the best experience I have had with this type of music. Brings a whole new sense of realism to the performances.

[Zed Zed]

10 hours ago, muon* said:

I think you place too much faith in the R8 construction, It's a mass produced Chinese amp

 

Not so much 'mass', judging from the constant 'out of stock' notices on China HiFi   I think you are being a bit hard on it - for the money it's pretty well made in my experience. I've paid a lot more for some British 'boutique' brands that have been far less well constructed.  I bought my R8 as a cheap way into tubes, thinking I'd move it on and buy something better (more expensive) if I liked the whole tube thing. But, so far at any rate, I have no inclination to spend more and am very, very happy with the R8. I think that to get significantly better there'd be no point moving up to $2-3000 so I'd have to look at $4-5000 or more and, TBH, right now I just feel no need.

 

Quote

 

that is even flawed in It's execution given how they left out a critical resistor intended for stability.

 

That is a bit worrying. Is there a link to this info so I can decide how much it worries me? (If it's in this thread, I've forgotten I read it, sorry).

 

Quote

 

Likely fairly decent transformers but not special in any way.

 

It's well made in many ways and given It's price point.

 

Given your room size it would work OK for the music and levels you listen at, bass wouldn't be as tight as with an amp that produces current on demand, if I follow Kirk's better understanding of those plots.....but is that a deal breaker? only you could answer that.

 

My last amp was a high current design and it did produce tighter bass but, you know what, I actually like the more textured, slightly more loose bass that the R8 gives me. It seems a bit more 'organic' whereas I was finding it 'dryer' before. Hard to say which is 'best' for me - they are different and I like them both.

 

EDIT: I just reminded myself in my reply to Kirk that I ought to have mentioned here that I am using the 4 ohm taps with my 8 ohm speakers, and one of the most significant benefits of this, for me, was the improvement to the quality of the bass. Combined with my 6CA7 Fat Bottle tubes, I am having no worries at all over the bass I am hearing.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Zed Zed
Clarification

[Zed Zed]

6 hours ago, xlr8or said:

 

Also, what needs to be considered is that the majority of speakers sold today need SS amps to make the flabby bass sound dynamic. They are manufactured with SS amps in mind delivering a minimum power rating that often far exceeds the maximum power rating of tube amps. The low damping values of tube amps also don't suit these speaker types particularly well. See the Paul Joppa post above.

 

 

This is a good point - it is, I'd bet,  true that pretty much all speakers these days have been voiced using SS amps. I found a significant improvement to the bass from my R8 when I switched my 8ohm speakers on to the 4 ohm taps. I believe this affects the damping and certainly the bass was one of the main reasons I decided to stick with the 4 ohm taps. There were other changes too but it's hard to say if they were real or expectation bias, but the bass was clearly better quality.

[Zed Zed]

1 hour ago, jomjom said:

Maybe one day when I have a more efficient speakers I’ll comeback to the r8.

 

A general point, if I may. This is in no way to disparage your speakers, which look fabulous and I am sure sound fabulous too, based on what I have read about them. This is just a personal opinion (and you know what they compare those with . . . ) but it is based on decades of involvement with hifi and literally dozens of different speakers over the years.

 

I find highly sensitive speakers have a far more 'dynamic', much more 'live' sound than their less sensitive counterparts. They seem, to me, to bring the music alive and are more involving to listen to. By comparison, low sensitivity designs often seem 'dull' to me and to 'suck some of the life' out of the music.

 

I can't really explain this - an 85dB speaker delivering 97dB of sound pressure at 1m should be exactly the same as a 91dB speaker delivering 97dB at 1m - the only difference (all other things being equal of course, which they never are, but bear with me) is that the first speaker will need 16 watts of amplifier power and the second speaker will need just 4 watts. Now pretty much any half-decent amplifier should have no trouble delivering 16 watts, especially if it is a 100 watt SS amp.

 

Nevertheless, in my experience, the second speaker will have all those sonic characteristics I have mentioned.

 

As a result of this, I nowadays tend to go for higher sensitivity designs - at least 90dB or thereabouts. The bonus is that I don't need to worry so much about pairing them with hugely powerful amplifiers. 

 

Please bear in mind that this is just my opinion. There are many wonderful speakers with 85dB sensitivity and a truly great low sensitivity design will generally trump an average high sensitivity design and so on. But whenever I hear a high sensitivity speaker, the music just comes alive in a way that it doesn't in a (comparable quality) low sensitivity design.

 

Take it with a big grain of salt. Your speakers cost way more than mine and in all likelihood have many qualities that mine don't. It all depends on preferences, like most things in this hobby.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Zed Zed
Carful proofreeding

[muon*]

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Edited July 23, 2021 by muon*

[Zed Zed]

^^^^

Thanks, Ian.

 

I will print that info out and keep it. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to install the required resistors but if the amp ever needs attention, I can get the service engineer to do it for me. Thanks for the time and effort in finding the info for me.

[muon*]

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Edited July 23, 2021 by muon*