Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread

[Zed Zed]

45 minutes ago, Candan said:

 

This eases my concerns and supports my findings.  However, it doesn't explain the sound difference being so big compared to solid state amps.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-kanta-no2-loudspeaker-measurements

 

"Focal specifies the nominal impedance as 8 ohms. The impedance does stay above 8 ohms through the treble, and above 6 ohms in the low- and midbass regions. However, the Kanta No.2's impedance drops below 4 ohms between 80 and 180Hz, with a minimum magnitude of 2.97 ohms at 105Hz (fig.1). In addition, the electrical phase angle has an extremely high value between 70 and 90Hz, where the impedance magnitude is low. This speaker will work best with amplifiers comfortable with a 4 ohm load."

 

Yes, that makes sense (the Stereophile conclusion).  As for your question about the big tonal difference when using SS amps, I can only speculate.  Tonal balance is affected by the interaction between the amp's output impedance with the speaker's frequency-induced impedance variations. In the case of a SS amp, the output impedance is vanishingly small - a fraction of an ohm. It is more than likely that the designer of your speaker voiced it using a SS amplifier, so maybe when you use the 4 ohm taps, the interaction between the R8 and the Focals is closer to the designer's intention?  As I say, I am just spitballing here really. HST, I'd expect the difference to be more subtle, not a change from 'ear-splitting, harsh highs' to 'acceptably smooth', which is what you are experiencing.

 

Maybe reaching out to the manufacturer of your speaker would provide some answers? I have invariably found speaker manufacturers to be more than willing to help with questions like these.  It is certainly an interesting question.

 

EDIT:

 

I just read the full Stereophile report you linked to. This paragraph is interesting:

 

For most of my listening to the Kanta No.2s I used a pair of PS Audio M700 monoblocks, which I'd found to work well with the Monitor PL300 IIs. When I switched to the McIntosh Laboratory MC275 LE tubed stereo amp (4-ohm terminals), the sound changed in ways that were largely predictable. The MC275 LE is one of my favorite amplifiers, with the easy-on-the-ears quality of tubes at their best, but without an excessively "tubey" sound that becomes a coloration. These characteristics were evident through the Kanta No.2s. The bottom end was not as well defined as with the PS Audios, but the difference was not as great as I might have expected. Dynamics were somewhat subdued with the McIntosh, but this was apparent only in direct comparisons. If I had to choose one of these amplifiers to use with the Kanta No.2s, it would be the Mac—and I'd be quite happy with the PS Audios.

 

 

This not only supports the concept of using 4 ohm taps with nominally 8 ohm speakers, but also suggests that there should be no huge difference in tonality when using a tube amp. I am sure the reviewer would have commented if he had experienced what you did. So, something odd is going on and I hope that you get to the bottom of it, even if for academic interest only.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Zed Zed

[echorec]

4 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

So, something odd is going on and I hope that you get to the bottom of it, even if for academic interest only.

 

I tell my wife that all of the tubes I keep buying are strictly for academic purposes and for the betterment of science.

[Zed Zed]

2 hours ago, echorec said:

 

I tell my wife that all of the tubes I keep buying are strictly for academic purposes and for the betterment of science.

 

This is very relevant to what I was just about to post. I have just rolled my first tubes! I am no longer a tube virgin, and it feels just great

 

I ordered a batch of tubes, from different sellers, and the first arrived today. These are my NOS Sylvania 6SL7GT and I fitted them about 3 hours ago. I'm looking now for some guidance from more experienced members . . . 

 

As soon as I fired up my favourite test playlist, a huge smile cracked across my face. My first thought was 'smoother'. Followed by 'more beauty'. I can hear the decay of some instruments going on for a little longer. The music seems to appear, as if by magic, from a truly black background. The separation between instruments seems a little greater. There is more 'space' and 'air' around the instruments and the human voice seems to hang in space between my speakers. Now all of this was there before, but it now seems to be enhanced, as if a thin veil has been removed from my speakers. Importantly, on some tracks I used to hear a slight glare at times. I figured this was in the recording, but now it has pretty much vanished, so the overall result is 'sweeter'.

 

This is the thing: is this expectation bias at work?  Am I really hearing this sort of difference from swapping the stock Willsenton tubes to these NOS Sylvanias?

 

I assume that the 6SL7s are pre-amp tubes?  Now, I know from other experiences that the pre-amp can make a big difference. After all, the power amp/power tubes can only work with what they are given.  So the question to you gurus is  . . . is this the sort of thing you experience when you roll your preamp tubs?

 

If it is, then boy, am I looking forward to my 6CA7 Fat Boys arriving!

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Zed Zed

[xlr8or]

Rolling the input tube, in this case the 6SL7 for the R8, will have the greatest influence in changing the tonal character. Rolling the other valves will be less significant.

 

Since you live in the UK you should hunt down some Xf1 B coded revision 4 Mullard Blackburn fat base dark brown phenolic base EL34’s with double O-shaped getters made from 1960-61.

[echorec]

21 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

This is the thing: is this expectation bias at work?  Am I really hearing this sort of difference from swapping the stock Willsenton tubes to these NOS Sylvanias?

 

I assume that the 6SL7s are pre-amp tubes?  Now, I know from other experiences that the pre-amp can make a big difference. After all, the power amp/power tubes can only work with what they are given.  So the question to you gurus is  . . . is this the sort of thing you experience when you roll your preamp tubs?

 

Expectation bias is definitely possible for some.  The changes I experience with tube rolling are always very subtle and require deep listening to identify. Sometimes I can't explain exactly what it is that is actually going on, or why I like one tube over the other, and that is completely fine. I just know I like it (or dislike it), and that's all that really matters.

 

The other thing I've learned is that no matter what people say about one tube or the other, you will never know until you try it yourself. Some loved the 6550s in the R8. I hated them. Some dislike RCA 5691s, but I love them in tandem with KT88s.

 

It almost makes me want to stop posting my thoughts on tubes because... what's the point? If you don't have my ears, speakers, cartridge, etc., etc., you will likely have a different experience. But I do anyway... for academic purposes. And because it's fun to share experiences with the good people on this forum.

[Zed Zed]

48 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

Rolling the input tube, in this case the 6SL7 for the R8, will have the greatest influence in changing the tonal character. Rolling the other valves will be less significant.

 

 

Interesting - thanks. So it seems that I started in the right place (purely by accident of course).

 

48 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

Since you live in the UK you should hunt down some Xf1 B coded revision 4 Mullard Blackburn fat base dark brown phenolic base EL34’s with double O-shaped getters made from 1960-61.

 

 I will memorise that sentence and trot it out when appropriate LOL  

 

RARE Matched Pair Fat Base Mullard El34 Blackburn OO Getter Xf1 1961 NOS for sale | eBay

 

These are almost the same as you describe - they are xf2 not xf1. Since I have no idea what that means, is it significant?  The four for sale are not entirely stupidly priced, so I could be tempted . . . are these some sort of holy grail tube?

 

Thanks for the advice BTW.

[Zed Zed]

51 minutes ago, echorec said:

 

Expectation bias is definitely possible for some.  The changes I experience with tube rolling are always very subtle and require deep listening to identify. Sometimes I can't explain exactly what it is that is actually going on, or why I like one tube over the other, and that is completely fine. I just know I like it (or dislike it), and that's all that really matters.

 

Yes, agreed. I have done further listening now and am also noticing a bigger soundstage with improved imaging, along with a little more attack on the leading edges of transients (very noticeable with BB King and Muddy Waters guitars). IDK how much of this is expectation bias - I try hard to be objective and I have decades of critical listening to draw on, but it's hard to be sure. Either way, as you rightly say, there's no real need to explain (or even understand) it - so long as we hear it, that is all that matters.

 

Quote

 

The other thing I've learned is that no matter what people say about one tube or the other, you will never know until you try it yourself. Some loved the 6550s in the R8. I hated them. Some dislike RCA 5691s, but I love them in tandem with KT88s.

 

It almost makes me want to stop posting my thoughts on tubes because... what's the point? If you don't have my ears, speakers, cartridge, etc., etc., you will likely have a different experience. But I do anyway... for academic purposes. And because it's fun to share experiences with the good people on this forum.

 

Agreed again. Please keep sharing. Even though you are 100% right that nobody else will have the same gear as you do, your insights are valuable and, as you say, it's good fun to share. And we do see trends emerging. Everywhere I keep reading that the EL34 is the most 'musical' tube. I know it won't suit everyone, and it all depends on what it is partnered with etc etc, but if this is a more or less universally held view, then it gives people (especially newbs like me) something to work with.

 

I am waiting delivery on four EH 6CA7 Fat Boys and really I have no idea what to expect when I install them - but it will be fun finding out and if I don't like them, I can always sell them on and get most of my money back. Then there are those Mullards . . .  

 

----------------

 

@xlr8or WRT to those Mullards in the eBay link - are they a 'safe' purchase? I mean, that since they are 'used', how would I know if they are near the end of their life or not, for example? Or does this not matter all that much? (I assume they eventually wear out, like light bulbs).

 

I have seen the re-issue Mullards on the internet and they seem to be about half the price of the used set on eBay. Paying double for something significantly better makes sense to me, but not if they decide to expire two weeks in. As ever, all advice gratefully received.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Zed Zed

[xlr8or]

@Zed Zed Please see the link below for the 4 different revisions of the Xf1 fat base EL34.

 

I would also suggest hunting down some Mullard Blackburn straight bottle ECC35's for the 6SL7 position and Mullard Blackburn ST shaped ECC32's for the 6SN7 positions.

 

NOS (and even some UOS) valves will last as long if not longer compared to new tubes. Nothing to worry about there.

 

No - I wouldn't purchase that Xf2 quad set as they are a bit too pricey. You can start collecting singles.

Edited February 10, 2021 by xlr8or

[Candan]

12 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

 

Yes, that makes sense (the Stereophile conclusion).  As for your question about the big tonal difference when using SS amps, I can only speculate.  Tonal balance is affected by the interaction between the amp's output impedance with the speaker's frequency-induced impedance variations. In the case of a SS amp, the output impedance is vanishingly small - a fraction of an ohm. It is more than likely that the designer of your speaker voiced it using a SS amplifier, so maybe when you use the 4 ohm taps, the interaction between the R8 and the Focals is closer to the designer's intention?  As I say, I am just spitballing here really. HST, I'd expect the difference to be more subtle, not a change from 'ear-splitting, harsh highs' to 'acceptably smooth', which is what you are experiencing.

 

Maybe reaching out to the manufacturer of your speaker would provide some answers? I have invariably found speaker manufacturers to be more than willing to help with questions like these.  It is certainly an interesting question.

 

EDIT:

 

I just read the full Stereophile report you linked to. This paragraph is interesting:

 

For most of my listening to the Kanta No.2s I used a pair of PS Audio M700 monoblocks, which I'd found to work well with the Monitor PL300 IIs. When I switched to the McIntosh Laboratory MC275 LE tubed stereo amp (4-ohm terminals), the sound changed in ways that were largely predictable. The MC275 LE is one of my favorite amplifiers, with the easy-on-the-ears quality of tubes at their best, but without an excessively "tubey" sound that becomes a coloration. These characteristics were evident through the Kanta No.2s. The bottom end was not as well defined as with the PS Audios, but the difference was not as great as I might have expected. Dynamics were somewhat subdued with the McIntosh, but this was apparent only in direct comparisons. If I had to choose one of these amplifiers to use with the Kanta No.2s, it would be the Mac—and I'd be quite happy with the PS Audios.

 

 

This not only supports the concept of using 4 ohm taps with nominally 8 ohm speakers, but also suggests that there should be no huge difference in tonality when using a tube amp. I am sure the reviewer would have commented if he had experienced what you did. So, something odd is going on and I hope that you get to the bottom of it, even if for academic interest only.

Good suggestions, I can see your logic!

 

Asking Focal on what they think, is a great idea!  I'll do that!

 

I'd also read that piece on the McIntosh and also experienced slightly less on the bottom end vs an SS amp, and expected as such, but not the highs I'm finding.  If I get a valid response from them, I'll follow-up.

[muon*]

..................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[jgunner]

Hello tube gurus,

My Willsenton just arrived and I'm setting it up now. Being a tube amp virgin, can anyone tell me what is that brown grubby stuff between the glass and the plastic? Is the tube safe to be used??

 

thanks! 

Edited February 10, 2021 by jgunner

[Ihearmusic]

56 minutes ago, jgunner said:

Hello tube gurus,

My Willsenton just arrived and I'm setting it up now. Being a tube amp virgin, can anyone tell me what is that brown grubby stuff between the glass and the plastic? Is the tube safe to be used??

 

thanks! 

 

Just a bit of excess glue. Good to use. Mass produced chines tube..........

[xlr8or]

1 hour ago, Ihearmusic said:

 

Just a bit of excess glue. Good to use. Mass produced chines tube..........

 

I hope they haven't started making the glass envelopes out of acrylic and that's the charred stuff left down near the bottom. 

[muon*]

...............

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[jgunner]

14 minutes ago, muon* said:

Bad curry the night before

 

Thanks peeps. All good. No smoke, no excessive smell of paint nor glue and definitely no signs of digested curry lol

[bruceathome]

@jgunner when did you order your amp mate?  Just wondering how long it took to get to you. 

[jgunner]

@bruceathome 7th Jan mate. so a little over a month. shipped via FedEx. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by jgunner

[bruceathome]

@jgunner Thanks mate. I ordered mine on December 30, but it’s coming by sea. The wait is feeling long!

[Zed Zed]

14 hours ago, xlr8or said:

@Zed Zed Please see the link below for the 4 different revisions of the Xf1 fat base EL34.

 

 

NOS (and even some UOS) valves will last as long if not longer compared to new tubes. Nothing to worry about there.

 

No - I wouldn't purchase that Xf2 quad set as they are a bit too pricey. You can start collecting singles.

 

 

Thanks for the link and the recommendations. I get it with NOS, but how about used tubes? There's no way to know if they have been used every day for 20 years or barely used at all, is there?

[Zed Zed]

2 hours ago, jgunner said:

@bruceathome 7th Jan mate. so a little over month. shipped via FedEx. 

 

Let us know what you think when you've set it all up   And *photos* of course!!

[muon*]

.................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[xlr8or]

As @muon* has shared, all tubes that are purchased whether new or used should always have test measurements included with them to verify their working status.

 

Start asking around locally for valves. Second hand finds at garage sales or flea markets can be truly satisfying. Some of these finds may even yield NOS valves that are just sitting there in new valve boxes that haven't even been opened up in 70+ years since being manufactured. If you come across any of these gems with Mullard, Brimar/STC, GEC/Genalex/ Osram, Cossor, Hivac etc. boxed valves, I know a person in AU who would willingly take them in.

Edited February 10, 2021 by xlr8or

[xlr8or]

@Zed Zed Forgot to mention that the Genalex/Marconi/Osram metal base B65 is something you should also hunt down for the 6SN7 position.

[Wisker]

39 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

@Zed Zed  Genalex/Marconi/Osram metal base B65  

Say that real fast 5 times...    Those look a little spendy, 

[echorec]

Since we're talking about used tubes - I recently took a gamble on a quad of used German RFT EL34s from the early 80s. It was a quad that was pulled from a Marshal guitar amplifier almost 40 years ago. The original owner stated that he had replaced the tubes after using them for a very short time, in favor of Groove Tubes for his guitar amp. I purchased the quad for $35/shipped. Small risk, potentially big reward. Before I tried them in the R8, I had the tech at my local HiFi test them (for free). Not only were they matched, but they all tested "good". I swapped them into the R8 and they sound really great! They yield a big soundstage, 3D mids, and a sweet top end. The bass is a little laid back, but my sub makes up for it. I like them much better than the new Russian Mullards, which make the R8 sound analytical by comparison. Between the RFTs and TS EL34Bs, it's a toss up for me. The EL34Bs yield a bit thicker overall tone and better bass, but the RFTs top end is sweeter and there's something very pleasing about them that is hard to describe. In the end, I consider this purchase a steal, since NOS RFT quads sell for $250-300, and I just wasn't willing to gamble on them at that price.

Edited February 10, 2021 by echorec