Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread

[echorec]

Perhaps someone can answer, what exactly happens if a tube is allowed to red-plate indefinitely (or unattended) in this circuit? Does the tube simply short out or fail? Does it blow the unit's fuse? Mine red-plated for less than 60 seconds and it got so hot that it cooked the tube's base and white lettering on the glass dark, and smelled the room terrible of burnt plastics. I also heard a terrible loud sound coming out of one speaker while it did this. That leads to a separate question: Can red-plating damage your speaker?

Edited January 27, 2021 by echorec
punctuation

[Candan]

12 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

 

It may be that the manual advises against leaving it on for long periods, especially unattended, in case of fire hazard (speculating)? Just covering themselves maybe? I doubt the unit will have passed all the regulatory requirements imposed in North America, the EU and Australia / New Zealand.

For sure they want to cover themselves.  However, in the end, although there's nothing potentially unsafe with how it operates, it does not have electrical certification listings anywhere.  This is no different from a lot of the crap on Amazon, that's not electrically certified either.  The risk is all yours!   

[Zed Zed]

54 minutes ago, echorec said:

Perhaps someone can answer, what exactly happens if a tube is allowed to red-plate indefinitely (or unattended) in this circuit? Does the tube simply short out or fail? Does it blow the unit's fuse? Mine red-plated for less than 60 seconds and it got so hot that it cooked the tube's base and white lettering on the glass dark, and smelled the room terrible of burnt plastics. I also heard a terrible loud sound coming out of one speaker while it did this. That leads to a separate question: Can red-plating damage your speaker?

 

Blimey. Imagine coming home and finding it had been doing that *all day* while you were at work.  I want to break mine in as fast as I can, but I won't be leaving it on when I am not home, that is for sure. I tend to have music on all day long anyway, just in the background (thank you Tidal) ahead of any 'serious' listening later in the evening (thank you Turntable). So I will be putting about 8 hours a day on the amp from Day One. I'll get to 100 hours in just over a week anyway. Really looking forward to this.

[xlr8or]

I can report on red plating and the fireworks that follow. If left unattended (i. e., you can't turn off the power in the required time) you get the white flash of death and the tube goes as does the grid bias resistors in circuit.

 

Some circuit designs such as CJ incorporate fuses for this very purpose. Others such as ARC ignore it. For the R8 I suspect it's the latter.

 

The plastic smell is due to the grid bias resistors burning out. The molten plastic splatters everywhere inside and stinks the listening environment of bad plastic paraffin smell - for several days duration. The intense heat generated for the relatively short period of time can also burn out the other parts of the circuit board - the circuit board tracks themselves become discoloured and on certain occasions lift up and out of the backing board, as the heat is far more intense over the smaller surface area regions. The tube itself becomes fully covered with getter silver flashing inside and requires a burial service.

Edited January 27, 2021 by xlr8or

[xlr8or]

3 hours ago, echorec said:

 

The R8 manual specifically warns against letting the R8 idle for long periods of time. I'm not sure why, or if it matters, but just want to put that out there. I definitely don't feel comfortable leaving mine unattended at idle for more than a few minutes, based on the previous red-plating issues I had.

 

Burning in the tubes for an initial 48 hour period with a low level signal passing through the circuit I think is not really related to idling. I think idling in the context shared in the manual means leaving the amp permanently on with no signal passing through after your listening session/s.

Edited January 27, 2021 by xlr8or

[Zed Zed]

53 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

 

Burning in the tubes for an initial 48 hour period with a low level signal passing through the circuit I think is not really related to idling. I think idling in the context shared in the manual means leaving the amp permanently on with no signal passing through after your listening session/s.

 

Thanks for that info - I see the distinction. Do you know why the amp shouldn't be left in the idling state - what might happen if, for example, one forgets to turn it off?

[Atmaj]

2 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

 

Thanks for that info - I see the distinction. Do you know why the amp shouldn't be left in the idling state - what might happen if, for example, one forgets to turn it off?

I don't think there is an issue. Must be wrong interpretation of the manual. Note that those manuals are originally written in Chinese and then translated to English. As long as the load (speakers) is connected to amp, it is not different to the state when it is playing music.

[Candan]

Got home... House still here.  No flames, no sparks.

 

Was a bit concerned about some of the comments, so will reduce my unattended burn in time going forwards!

 

However, having left it all night last night and all day today, it seems so far that the buzzing has dissipated

 

Pretty happy camper over here!

[xlr8or]

43 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

 

Thanks for that info - I see the distinction. Do you know why the amp shouldn't be left in the idling state - what might happen if, for example, one forgets to turn it off?

 

Apart from a reduction in service life or tube hours, cathode poisoning of the tube may also result if the amp isn't used for a long period of time and the heaters are just left on in an idle state.

[echorec]

46 minutes ago, Candan said:

Got home... House still here.  No flames, no sparks.

 

Was a bit concerned about some of the comments, so will reduce my unattended burn in time going forwards!

 

However, having left it all night last night and all day today, it seems so far that the buzzing has dissipated

 

Pretty happy camper over here!

 

Didn't mean to scare ya! Just reporting what the manual said and my personal experience. Atmaj's comment makes sense too. Maybe just bad translation.

 

And that is great news that the noise is gone! Go have fun!

[Comzee]

Saw some posts earlier about how long can you leave R8 on being safe.

I guess somebody said the manual recommends not leaving it on more than 8hr at a time... HA.

 

Well I'm lazy, and any tube amp I've ever owned I leave on 24/7 with a reboot about once a week.

I wouldn't take my personal experience as safety advice, until more data points are known, but I've had my R8 on for 160hr+ week after week, no issues.

 

Tubes by design are spec'd to run 24/7 365, but that's not to say the parts within any particular amp are. This is where it might become dangerous.

Although, I'm not arsed to care enough.

 

If my amp blows up at any point, I'll let you guys know, otherwise Imma keep running it 24/7

 

 

[Candan]

3 minutes ago, Comzee said:

Saw some posts earlier about how long can you leave R8 on being safe.

I guess somebody said the manual recommends not leaving it on more than 8hr at a time... HA.

 

Well I'm lazy, and any tube amp I've ever owned I leave on 24/7 with a reboot about once a week.

I wouldn't take my personal experience as safety advice, until more data points are known, but I've had my R8 on for 160hr+ week after week, no issues.

 

Tubes by design are spec'd to run 24/7 365, but that's not to say the parts within any particular amp are. This is where it might become dangerous.

Although, I'm not arsed to care enough.

 

If my amp blows up at any point, I'll let you guys know, otherwise Imma keep running it 24/7

 

 

Wow, what a contrast running it 24/7! 

 

In other words you could be hit by a bus tomorrow no matter what you choose!

[Zed Zed]

16 hours ago, Candan said:

Got home... House still here.  No flames, no sparks.

 

Was a bit concerned about some of the comments, so will reduce my unattended burn in time going forwards!

 

However, having left it all night last night and all day today, it seems so far that the buzzing has dissipated

 

Pretty happy camper over here!

 

Good news that a) your house didn't burn down  and b) that the buzzing has gone.

 

I was expecting a UPS man with a bad back from lifting heavy packages today, but my shipment has been delayed for a day. Arriving tomorrow (Friday 29th) now.

14 hours ago, Comzee said:

Saw some posts earlier about how long can you leave R8 on being safe.

I guess somebody said the manual recommends not leaving it on more than 8hr at a time... HA.

 

Well I'm lazy, and any tube amp I've ever owned I leave on 24/7 with a reboot about once a week.

I wouldn't take my personal experience as safety advice, until more data points are known, but I've had my R8 on for 160hr+ week after week, no issues.

 

Tubes by design are spec'd to run 24/7 365, but that's not to say the parts within any particular amp are. This is where it might become dangerous.

Although, I'm not arsed to care enough.

 

If my amp blows up at any point, I'll let you guys know, otherwise Imma keep running it 24/7

 

 

 

That is reassuring to me, who prefers to keep stuff switched on where possible. Does this reduce tube life at all?

[chinook9]

Don't know anything about the physics of tube burn-in (does anyone)  but I expect regular off>cool-down>on cycles should be part of it.  I expect that the heating and cooling cycles effect the tube as much, or more, than one constant on cycle.

[muon*]

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Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[muon*]

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Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[Wisker]

48 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

 

 

 

I was expecting a UPS man with a bad back from lifting heavy packages today, but my shipment has been delayed for a day. Arriving tomorrow (Friday 29th) now.

 

 

Mine is hung up at the hong kong airport, government closed it yesterday due to protest's ...   

[muon*]

................

Edited July 22, 2021 by muon*

[Comzee]

6 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

That is reassuring to me, who prefers to keep stuff switched on where possible. Does this reduce tube life at all?

 

6 hours ago, chinook9 said:

Don't know anything about the physics of tube burn-in (does anyone)  but I expect regular off>cool-down>on cycles should be part of it.  I expect that the heating and cooling cycles effect the tube as much, or more, than one constant on cycle.

 

You have to just take it at your own risk, what I said was just a data point, "wouldn't take my personal experience as safety advice".

 

With that said, what Chinook9 said is the general logic around tubes, thermal swings might reduce tube life faster than keeping them on 24/7.

It's up for debate.

 

A few things to think about tho, triodes (and in part pentodes) are not very much different than an incandescent light bulb.

They both have filaments they could burn out after 1 week, or 10yr (some incandescent bulbs have been running over 100yr)

 

That's not to say anything about the grid within the tube, and how reliable that is vs the filament (heater) in the tube.

 

Take another data point, 300b tubes. Invented by Western Electric for telephony switch boards, meant to run 24/7 365, with a rated lifespan of 20,000 hours (from WE original documentation).

 

It's up to each individual to make their own decision on this. For me, risking wearing out tubes faster (or potentially blowing up a $1k amp) is less than I care about the convenience of 24hr operation (I use the R8 for desktop headphone listening, and swap to TV speaker for movie/tv/youtube at night) so it's natural I don't want to be cycling it off/on 2-3 times a day as I use it, since I'm using it almost constantly throughout the day.

 

Just wanted to give my own data point. Don't take anything I say as fact, you'll have to do the risk assessment for yourself.

[Zed Zed]

My R8 arrived today - 4 hours ago in fact. I have temporarily hooked it into the system and, so far, only my Tidal stream is connected (MQA quality where available). This was to test all was OK before taking the entire system apart to install the R8 properly.

 

Happy to say, all is good! The unit is amazingly silent - even with the volume turned right up I can hear nothing from the speakers (90 dB sensitivity) - no hum, no buzz, no hiss - nothing. I am experiencing the characteristic stink, but it is not too strong.

 

Here are my first impressions:

 

Emotion. The first thing that struck me was how the R8 wrings the last drop of emotion out of my female vocalists playlist. A huge emotional connection with the music.

 

Next is the amazingly solid three-dimensionality of the performers and their instruments. Allison Kraus is singing at the moment and her voice is coming from a real, human body, right here in my living room. Same with the piano and guitar behind her - solid, real instruments playing music. Soundstage is huge. Space around the instruments is palpable. Treble is so sweet, clear but relaxed, no sense of strain even on loud highs. Bass is ever so slightly loose, but not in a worrying sort of way. I prefer it this way to the much more 'dry' bass I get on my (Class A) SS amp.  The track has changed on Tidal to 'Marisa' from the band Dave's True Story. I have goosebumps down my back. If I turn around from my desk, I would expect to see the singer standing in front of me, so holographic is the imaging. Mid range, where music really lives, is astonishing. It has weight and tactility. My wife plays piano and we have a good piano in the house. The piano I am hearing on these tracks sounds the same as the 'real' piano - a solidity, weight and sense of it being a true percussion instrument, with hammers striking strings. This is something one often doesn't hear in music reproduction systems - the fact that a piano is a percussion-type instrument. I can hear the hammers contacting the strings, and the natural decay of the sound. Amazing.

 

And this is with an R8 that has less than 4 hours on it!  If it gets better after burn-in, I will think I have died and gone to stereo heaven. Two hours ago, I intended to take down the system and install the amp properly but I can't stop listening. I had to force myself to turn my back (literally) on the music to write this post!

 

EDIT:  I forgot to add that I am using the 4 ohm taps (with my nominally 8 ohm speakers) and, so far, have used Triode mode only. Volume is set at about 11 o'clock for my typical listening level (fairly loud).

 

I will post unboxing pics here later. The unit is exceptionally well packaged as you will see. Double boxed, with the tubes individually packed in protective foam material. Clear instructions on how to install the tubes. I have to go back to listening right now. It's like a drug.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Candan]

4 minutes ago, Zed Zed said:

My R8 arrived today - 4 hours ago in fact. I have temporarily hooked it into the system and, so far, only my Tidal stream is connected (MQA quality where available). This was to test all was OK before taking the entire system apart to install the R8 properly.

 

Happy to say, all is good! The unit is amazingly silent - even with the volume turned right up I can hear nothing from the speakers (90 dB sensitivity) - no hum, no buzz, no hiss - nothing. I am experiencing the characteristic stink, but it is not too strong.

 

Here are my first impressions:

 

Emotion. The first thing that struck me was how the R8 wrings the last drop of emotion out of my female vocalists playlist. A huge emotional connection with the music.

 

Next is the amazingly solid three-dimensionality of the performers and their instruments. Allison Kraus is singing at the moment and her voice is coming from a real, human body, right here in my living room. Same with the piano and guitar behind her - solid, real instruments playing music. Soundstage is huge. Space around the instruments is palpable. Treble is so sweet, clear but relaxed, no sense of strain even on loud highs. Bass is ever so slightly loose, but not in a worrying sort of way. I prefer it this way to the much more 'dry' bass I get on my (Class A) SS amp.  The track has changed on Tidal to 'Marisa' from the band Dave's True Story. I have goosebumps down my back. If I turn around from my desk, I would expect to see the singer standing in front of me, so holographic is the imaging. Mid range, where music really lives, is astonishing. It has weight and tactility. My wife plays piano and we have a good piano in the house. The piano I am hearing on these tracks sounds the same as the 'real' piano - a solidity, weight and sense of it being a true percussion instrument, with hammers striking strings. This is something one often doesn't hear in music reproduction systems - the fact that a piano is a percussion-type instrument. I can hear the hammers contacting the strings, and the natural decay of the sound. Amazing.

 

And this is with an R8 that has less than 4 hours on it!  If it gets better after burn-in, I will think I have died and gone to stereo heaven. Two hours ago, I intended to take down the system and install the amp properly but I can't stop listening. I had to force myself to turn my back (literally) on the music to write this post!

 

 

 

I will post unboxing pics here later. The unit is exceptionally well packaged as you will see. Double boxed, with the tubes individually packed in protective foam material. Clear instructions on how to install the tubes. I have to go back to listening right now. It's like a drug.

Early setup pics are required!  

 

Was thinking about those who had issues about the gas-off for the paint.  Having the silver version doesn't have as much paint obviously and I can't smell it all now at all.  I wonder if most the comments are from owners of black units?

 

What pretubes did you get with yours?  I did the regular Willsenton ones.  With my Focal Kanta with beryllium tweeters, the treble is fatiguing and quite bright.  I'm caught in the middle of being patient (only about 30 hours of music so far) or rolling to my pretubes to my Brimar NOS now.

 

Love hearing how happy you are with yours already!

[Wisker]

Took my system down and did some tidying up in anticipation of arrival , packed up the SS amp, So now I'm playing through the sound bar only, Brutal,  I should hi jack the wife's Denon system,  Hope my experience goes as good as yours.....

[Zed Zed]

Here are the unboxing images I said I would post. As you can see, the unit comes really well packaged, double-boxed and protected by foam inserts. There was zero damage to the inner box. The tubes are also well packed in their own protective foam 'socks' and placed inside the amp cover for added protection. Totally clear instructions, with photos, are given for the installation of the tubes (a first for me).

 

The unit is fairly heavy, but take note that the weight is biased towards the rear where the transformers are. When I first attempted to pick it up, grasping it one each side in the middle, the amp almost got away from me as it kinda swivelled towards the weight of the transformers. Best way to pick it up is by holding it underneath the transformers, not in the centre of the sides. So be careful - it would be easy to drop it.

 

The instruction manual is good enough for its purpose, with a bit of Chinglish creeping in. A small screwdriver for adjusting the bias pots is provided, as are a couple of spare fuses, which is nice attention to detail.

 

Note the way I got the amp out of the box - it is difficult to get hold of it to a straight lift up (and too heavy really). I tipped the whole box over sideways (see the photo below) and then wiggled the amp out towards me.

 

My unit is now in its final position in the system and I will post a photo of it tomorrow (too dark inside now to get a decent photo).

 

The unit is very well made and the build quality seems excellent. I am very happy!

 

 

This is how the unit arrived - the outer box is very thick, strong cardboard.

 

 

Outer box opened to reveal the styrofoam protectors and the inner, sealed box.

 

 

Inner box removed and opened.

 

 

Styrofoam packaging removed to show the amp in its protective wrapper. Valve insertion instructions on top.

 

 

Easy way to get inner box out of outer box - turn on side and shuffle it out.

 

 

Amp removed and placed on floor.

 

 

Taken out of cover. Note where foam goes in case of need to repack.

 

 

Finally, in the nude! Tubes are well packaged inside the cover.

 

 

This is one tube, in its protective 'sock'.

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Zed Zed

[Zed Zed]

5 hours ago, Candan said:

 

 

Was thinking about those who had issues about the gas-off for the paint.  Having the silver version doesn't have as much paint obviously and I can't smell it all now at all.  I wonder if most the comments are from owners of black units?

 

The pong from mine has more or less faded already. The styrofoam packaging still smells though, in my garage.

 

5 hours ago, Candan said:

 

What pretubes did you get with yours?  I did the regular Willsenton ones.  With my Focal Kanta with beryllium tweeters, the treble is fatiguing and quite bright.  I'm caught in the middle of being patient (only about 30 hours of music so far) or rolling to my pretubes to my Brimar NOS now.

 

All stock tubes with KT88s for the power tubes. Not sure if I will slip down the tube rolling rabbit hole. Time will tell

 

5 hours ago, Candan said:

 

Love hearing how happy you are with yours already!

 

Thanks. Over the moon is an understatement

4 hours ago, Wisker said:

Took my system down and did some tidying up in anticipation of arrival , packed up the SS amp, So now I'm playing through the sound bar only, Brutal,  I should hi jack the wife's Denon system,  Hope my experience goes as good as yours.....

 

If your experience matches mine, you will be totally, absolutely delighted mate. My wife also has a small Denon system in her piano room - uses a pair of Dali Senzors (sp?) which are truly remarkable bookshelf speakers (and really inexpensive).

[Zed Zed]

Best I can do tonight with my phone camera.

 

 

 

Not sure if I will run it without the tube cover. The amp sits low down near the ground as you can see, and it looks a bit vulnerable. Will probably take the cover off to show off to guests

 

 

Best shot I can get of the tubes glowing nicely. The amp has 10- hours on it now.