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Willsenton R8 Owners & Discussion Thread


Atmaj
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8 minutes ago, echorec said:

Tung-Sol EL34Bs came yesterday and I got to spend a couple hours with them, so I thought I'd share some first impressions. These came from Upscale Audio, who burns all tubes in for 72 hours, so I would consider these broken/burned in. My first thought was that vocals sounded different. More laid back or pushed back, like a couple feet behind the speakers, instead of level with the speakers like with the KT88s. There was definitely a small loss of "oomph" to the music and the soundstage is *slightly* smaller in width/height but is also slightly deeper, especially the center-fill of the stereo image. Overall I feel a sense of the sound being more lush and liquid, vs more powerful and detailed with the KT88s.

 

Anyway, those are some first thoughts. I'll report back in a week or so after I've had more time with them.

That's great. Are these NOS or new production TS? I have heard good things about new TS 34Bs.

 

I am currently testing EH 6CA7 big bottle and GL KT77 along with some NOS Hitachi 6CA7 and Chinese 6L6. Still breaking in so can't comment at the moment but KT77 are sounding very dynamic for now.

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12 minutes ago, Atmaj said:

That's great. Are these NOS or new production TS? I have heard good things about new TS 34Bs.

 

I am currently testing EH 6CA7 big bottle and GL KT77 along with some NOS Hitachi 6CA7 and Chinese 6L6. Still breaking in so can't comment at the moment but KT77 are sounding very dynamic for now.

These are new production. I think they sound great, btw. It'll just take more time for me to understand the differences. I can already tell that the tubes I use in the R8 will be a sort of "flavor of the month" kind of thing. I like that. I like variety.

 

Looking forward to hear your thoughts on all those varieties! That should be a lot of fun.

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Enjoying rolling tubes ?

 

I already had TL 6SN7 and I like those so not comparing with any other brand.

 

Compared 6SL7s between Tung Sol, Sovtek, Philips JAN 5691 and NOS Sylvania 6SL7 GT. Sovtek is nothing but stock Chinese tubes. Exactly same in construction and sounds same as well. Only rebranded and labled as Made in Russia.  TL and Philips are good but Sylvania are brilliant.  Very smooth and clean sounding so settled on it.

 

In Power tubes, all EL34 versions are better sounding than KT88 (at least to my choice). So far Gold Lion KT77 are out. They are overly dynamic in mids. I like perfectly balanced fequency response so didn't like it much.

6L6 are good but sounding more like KT88. Vintage Hitachi 6CA7 are good but I have 2 only so out of question. 

I have added TungSol EL34B as well in the comparison. Now breaking those but sounding great as true EL34 out of the box with bit of a less high frequency response. Hope it will improve with breaking in.

 

Will update soon on final verdict. 

Edited by Atmaj
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Totally agree about the Tung Sol EL34Bs - The top (and bottom) is a bit rounded with the R8. In my case, they pair well with my speakers, which are bright and are detailed. Everything is smooth and balanced. Zero fatigue and I think they also sound great at night time volumes (I'm usually around 65-70db at night) and the soundstage retains its size. Those with speakers that lean warm/dark, or possibly neutral may find that these are not a great match for the R8, imo. But they really pair well with my metal dome tweeters. I haven't switched back to the KT88s yet as I am enjoying these too much.

 

That's interesting about the KT77s. Those were going to be my next purchase, but I'm thinking I'll pass since I seem to be overly sensitive to midrange imbalance or forwardness. Hmmm... Now trying to decide if I want to spend the cash on some SED Winged-Cs. They are really expensive, but the way I look at buying tubes is that I am buying them for future use, and probably future amplifiers, so I don't mind building a bit of a collection. If not those, then probably some GL KT88s...

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On 03/10/2020 at 5:06 AM, echorec said:

Totally agree about the Tung Sol EL34Bs - The top (and bottom) is a bit rounded with the R8. In my case, they pair well with my speakers, which are bright and are detailed. Everything is smooth and balanced. Zero fatigue and I think they also sound great at night time volumes (I'm usually around 65-70db at night) and the soundstage retains its size. Those with speakers that lean warm/dark, or possibly neutral may find that these are not a great match for the R8, imo. But they really pair well with my metal dome tweeters. I haven't switched back to the KT88s yet as I am enjoying these too much.

 

That's interesting about the KT77s. Those were going to be my next purchase, but I'm thinking I'll pass since I seem to be overly sensitive to midrange imbalance or forwardness. Hmmm... Now trying to decide if I want to spend the cash on some SED Winged-Cs. They are really expensive, but the way I look at buying tubes is that I am buying them for future use, and probably future amplifiers, so I don't mind building a bit of a collection. If not those, then probably some GL KT88s...

Yes, GL KT77 has a forward and loud mids compared to TL 34. I have Sonus Faber which are already rich in mids hence it was too much for me. 

 

If you want to add something, think of EH 6CA7 fat bottle. Very well balanced having mids of EL34 and solidness of both top and bottom end of 6L6. 

 

For me  now the battle remains between TS EL34 and EH 6CA7. I read somewhere that TS EL34 has a solid base after braking in so waiting for that.

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I wonder how easy it it would be to do a " True Bypass" mod of the preamp thus enabling the R8 to have an external preamp plugged into it... As it stands it is not meant to be ideal to plug an external dedicated preamp into the Preamp Section of an integrated. Having the versatility of a proper ' Power Amp Only' option opens up a world of possibilities.. Just a pity that feature wasn't correctly implemented from the start. Can it be sorted? 

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13 hours ago, bryansamui said:

I wonder how easy it it would be to do a " True Bypass" mod of the preamp thus enabling the R8 to have an external preamp plugged into it... As it stands it is not meant to be ideal to plug an external dedicated preamp into the Preamp Section of an integrated. Having the versatility of a proper ' Power Amp Only' option opens up a world of possibilities.. Just a pity that feature wasn't correctly implemented from the start. Can it be sorted? 

It can be done but will require some changes in the current circuit.

When you select Pre-In input:

  1. 6SL7's plate voltage and heater voltage need to be turned off (no point in burning those tubes if not using it.)
  2. The input shall be then directly routed to phase splitter section
  3. Additional circuitry will require to match impedance of 6SN7 input with Pre-amp output

However, this amp was designed primarily as an integrated amplifier and doing above changes will require precise calculations to make sure that it operates as Power amp only with max efficiency. An experienced tube amp designer will require to do that for sure.

 

Now the question is, is this change worth? this will only bypass 6SL7 pre-amp section so is that tube/section negatively affecting your sonic qualities of the pre-amp? I am sure it won't if you use quality tubes. 6SL7 is a twin triode but only one triode is used as a gain stage and other one is just a buffer with unity gain. R8 designer has designed this pre-amp section very well and in my opinion, that is one of the main reason this amp sounds so good and noise free.

Now a days it is rare to see any new amp using 6SL7 as these high gain tubes are bit difficult to handle for amp designer but has great sonic characteristics. 

 

On the other hand, I haven't seen any tube integrated amp which also work as a true power amp (not even Prima Luna does this). I would buy a true power amp if I am after that kind of configuration only.

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@Atmaj

 

the muzishare x7 seems to be dead quiet when switched to poweramp mode , unlike the R8 which i can hear instant hiss when operating in poweramp mode.

 

makes me wonder of the x7 is truly bypassing the preamp stage . 

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11 minutes ago, demoiree said:

@Atmaj

 

the muzishare x7 seems to be dead quiet when switched to poweramp mode , unlike the R8 which i can hear instant hiss when operating in poweramp mode.

 

makes me wonder of the x7 is truly bypassing the preamp stage . 

I am doubtful. Having dead quite does not mean it is bypassing pre amp section. My Yaqin MC 100B was also quite and normal in Power amp mode but it wasn't true Power amp either. Yaqin has a resistor to drop the signal as well as removes the feedback to reduce gain in Power amp mode.

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You are correct.  Everything goes through 12AX7 which is a preamp tube.

 

The PRE IN has 47K in series resistor to drop the signal level. When S2 is turned on, RL1 takes input directly from Pre IN rather than volume control thus mimicking Power amp stage bypassing volume control .

 

image.thumb.png.32f57b8c3736ee2ed9d06f633e1e0d67.png

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@pretender

 

not fully , as i still finding ways to A/B test them without switching on and off each time i compare , as that really takes away my memory on some nuances that i hear. 

 

@Atmaj do you think is safe to mute and plug in a headphone to cut off the speaker output(without turning it off)? i can hear the speakers not getting any hiss or white noise when i plug in a headphone, does it mean that the transformer output has been cut?

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@pretender I can add a few comments regarding the X7 and R8. While I didn't have them both at the same time, I remember the X7's presentation distinctly. I thought it had a great amount of detail, was very energetic, exciting, and had nice control. It just wasn't different enough from my SS integrated. By different, I mean more "tubey" and holographic (holophonic?), which is specifically what I had in mind when I ordered it. The R8, on the other hand, ended up being exactly what I was looking for in presentation (after a lengthy break-in and replacing all tubes). It has the holographic qualities in well-recorded/mixed music I was looking for and, with the EL34's, can get lush and very 3D in the midrange, and is a nice contrast to the presentation of my SS amp. I need to experiment more with the R8's KT88s, but I think the X7 was a bit better when it came to detail and overall control, but I just didn't experience that holography the same way I do with the R8. There's just a very distinct sense of space and depth with the R8 in my setup. It is very addicting. So I think neither is better/worse and, as is the case with most hifi, it all comes down to personal preference and system synergy.

 

@demoiree Regarding headphone/speakers - I'll wait to see what Atmaj says, but I thought it was curious: When I plug headphones in, my subwoofer is still seeing some signal from the R8, as I can hear music weakly through the sub. So I must turn it off if I use headphones. On the other hand, my main speakers are dead quiet during headphone use. So, I'm also curious as to what's going on.

 

Also, I am not experiencing any hiss when using the R8 as a "power amp" as you are. Is this happening with other tube combos as well?

 

Well, I couldn't help myself and ordered some more preamp tubes. This time I have a matched pair of NOS TungSol 6SU7GTY coming -- The high spec military grade 6SL7. Anecdotally, these seem to perform at the same level, if not better, than Red Base RCAs, so it will be interesting to hear them in the R8's circuit.

 

 

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@echorec

 

thanks for sharing your experience with the X7 ! if comparing stock to stock , out of the box the X7 wins hands down, maybe due to higher quality JJ preamp tubes are fitted on the X7 . 

 

I still yet to start tube rolling the R8 as I want to grasp how the stock sounds first ,  having said , I bought some new production EH EL34 and tungsol 6SN7 , but haven't decided which 6SL7 I should get yet , from what i read the 6SL7 seems to be the heart and soul on how the R8 performs? 

 

regarding the white noise /hiss , i suspect it is due to the stock 6SL7 , will report back if the noise still evident once i roll in some quality 6SL7(which i still not sure what to get yet!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@demoiree Oh you have some fun ahead of you rolling the R8! I did not like the stock preamp tubes at all -- Confined soundstage, very little holography, and harsh in the upper mids and highs. Get a nice matched pair of 6SL7.  Definitely worth putting some money here. I've been using NOS because my system leans bright, and the NOS have all been smoother in the top, with an open and 3D soundstage. One thing I really appreciate about the R8 is that you can set it up to be lush and syrupy or punchy and detailed. Right now, I am enjoying the former with EL34b's and NOS preamps.

 

For subwoofer, I use an active sub which also has speaker level terminals, so I simply run a pair of speaker wire connected with bananas to the R8. My main speakers are connected to same R8 terminals with spades. It's a nice, clean way to do it if you're using an amp with no sub outs, like the R8.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, demoiree said:

@pretender

 

not fully , as i still finding ways to A/B test them without switching on and off each time i compare , as that really takes away my memory on some nuances that i hear. 

 

@Atmaj do you think is safe to mute and plug in a headphone to cut off the speaker output(without turning it off)? i can hear the speakers not getting any hiss or white noise when i plug in a headphone, does it mean that the transformer output has been cut?

When you connect the headphone, speakers are disconnected and transformer output is diverted to headphone. It is very safe to do that.

 

If you want a less trouble then it is safe to disconnect speakers WHILE AMP IS ON MUTE. Just turn the volume control to min to be safe as well. 

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