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7 minutes ago, dbastin said:

What benefit would a managed switch provide compared to Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch 10x I use?

You just said 'switch', so I assumed unmanaged. UBNT is probably fine, if it doesn't give you the hassles their switches have given me in the past. 

 

8 minutes ago, dbastin said:

No NAS. Antipodes advice was SSD is better than NAS.  Can you please clarify your question?

Music is all local to the Antipodes? Well, that should keep network problems out of the way. Consider fencing it away from the rest of your network?

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There's always going to be a little friction in these discussions because people who actually do networks (and other IT) for a living deal in hard reality and not wishy thinking.   Networks

@rmpfyf I’ve lost interest in discussions about Ethernet, cables, switches and routers around here.  Please leave me out.   There are way too many people on here with a deep seated belief that

John, I'm just a tad experienced in networking and have decades of experience delivering far more time sensitive and bandwidth heavy applications than audio.   I've been involved in design a

5 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

Music is all local to the Antipodes? Well, that should keep network problems out of the way. Consider fencing it away from the rest of your network?

My music is either Tidal or SSD, presently only Tidal just to interrogate the ethernet, and it sounds better than SSD.  Ethernet connection is needed for control via Roon.

 

Can you explain what you mean by fencing?

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2 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Tidal just to interrogate the ethernet, and it sounds better than SSD

If there's an audible improvement using a streaming service from outside your network vs playing from local storage, there's something very wrong in the land of Antipodes. 

 

3 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Can you explain what you mean by fencing?

An audio network that only contains what is required to play music. No internet access (so no Tidal), no devices but your Antipodes and a single control device. It might be impractical going forward, but given you're already experimenting with the network, it can't hurt to give it a try. 

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1 hour ago, dbastin said:

How can lessons from the 2nd 'few people' be translated into things the majority of us can use and do?

 

What he said 

 

44 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

Pretty easily, really. Budget $250-ish and a day or two of fiddlin' time to try the highly buffered mpd-centric solution and give it a try. The software is all free, the hardware requirements are very cheap and if you don't like the outcome you can probably onsell the whole lot on the forums here to someone else looking to give it a go. 

 

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48 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

If there's an audible improvement using a streaming service from outside your network vs playing from local storage, there's something very wrong in the land of Antipodes. 

For once I have to agree with your perspective.  I do know whether it is very wrong but to me the local should be better.   I am not using Antipodes.  I did once and considered it to be a good product for me at the time.  My Roon ready now is a Weiss DSP 502.  Tidal for me is good via Roon.  However Roon from files on the Naim Uniticore is in front of Tidal.  Better still though, are the same files through the Weiss Man301.  I rarely use that as I like Roon much better than using the Man301 control.  Both Weiss components are connected to the Weiss Medus DAC via XLR.

 

 

John

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1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

there's something very wrong in the land of Antipodes. 

Maybe not, remember I said I removed the SSD and all Sata cables (both data and power)?  And remember I said my system plays for a minute without the router  connected?

 

The Devialet Pro Core Infinity Board "comes with a Quadcore ARM processor clocked at 1GHz, supported by 1GB of RAM-DDR3 memory and 4GB of Flash memory." I imagine the EX has even more memory.

 

So it is possible the improvement is because the SSD and its cables are a source of noise that playing from memory does not suffer from.

1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

a single control device

Can that be a tablet via wifi or bluetooth??

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13 minutes ago, dbastin said:

So it is possible the improvement is because the SSD and its cables are a source of noise that playing from memory does not suffer from.

A device that suffers problems from internal components would by definition have a design problem. Maybe a grounding issue. 

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12 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

A device that suffers problems from internal components would by definition have a design problem.

Are you saying cables dont impact sound quality?  Lets not go there in this thread.

 

I suspect the SSD being connected could be a problem.  I will soon be installing an Audience Hidden Treasure SATA cable, and SOtM filter, but that is another subject. Listening to only streamed music sets a benchmark to compare to when I reinstall the SSD and its new wires.

 

However, it is so, so good it has got me curious about a NAS, or using my old Antipodes Edge for that purpose.

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1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

If we ever get out of lockdown, I might invite myself around for a listen to your system. Where do your music tastes lie?

If you are in lock down I assume that you live in Melbourne Metro area somewhere.  .  You would be most welcome to visit.  I will PM to night you with a follow up

 

John

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4 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Are you saying cables dont impact sound quality?  Lets not go there in this thread.

No, I'm saying that an expensive dedicated device shouldn't need cables to be replaced because they should have got it right in the first place. I'd normally launch on a rant about SATA cables being unlikely to make a difference, but I'll admit server hardware almost always used foil-wrapped cables for internal wiring whereas consumer kit tends to use plastic-covered cables. I haven't cut them down to see if they shield them under the plastic. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

The Makua is a nice preamap. Very nice. I really like the way they don't skimp out on balanced inputs and try to palm off 2 balanced and six RCA as somehow acceptable. 

Best bit of gear I’ve ever owned I think.  The relay switch controlled variable gain output is my geek-out favourite bit.  Simple, elegant, unintrusive.

3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

I've got a lot of growing concerns about the extent that Roon has managed to lock-in the market. When they go out of business, there's going to be a lot unhappy people 

Maybe... They do a lot right or they wouldn’t be where they are.  It a great sounding player, with a slick interface and good support.  The cover art and bios are a digital world replacement for CD inserts and record sleeves.  As a person who enjoys the whole experience of recorded music, Roon is not only compelling, it is essential.  Lifetime subscription here (purchased at the earlier, lower cost).

3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

Anyway, I think you've got it pretty much nailed. Good set up.

Thanks!

3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

How much of your listening is Tidal vs your own music?

Probably 70% Tidal to 30% own music.

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9 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

I haven't cut them down to see if they shield them under the plastic. 

Consumer-grade stuff generally doesn't (or has a weak shield design) but you can certainly get the shielded stuff, and it doesn't cost the earth.

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Ok @rmpfyf... I read the long post.  My problem, and I think the problem for some (most?) “digital audiophiles”, is we are not quite tech savvy enough to build our own server+streamer system, with software and network setup as you describe.  I have little doubt what you describe would be the ducks nuts, but managing/monitoring/upgrading such a setup is a lot of knowledge to absorb and keep up with.  I put it to you the reason most of us “tweak” is because we digest the smaller increments of knowledge and change to system more easily than going “all-in” as per your description.  And the reason we buy brand name software/server/streamer solutions is because we treat these like audio components with warranties and support.

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15 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Ok @rmpfyf... I read the long post.  My problem, and I think the problem for some (most?) “digital audiophiles”, is we are not quite tech savvy enough to build our own server+streamer system, with software and network setup as you describe.  I have little doubt what you describe would be the ducks nuts, but managing/monitoring/upgrading such a setup is a lot of knowledge to absorb and keep up with.  I put it to you the reason most of us “tweak” is because we digest the smaller increments of knowledge and change to system more easily than going “all-in” as per your description.  And the reason we buy brand name software/server/streamer solutions Is because we treat the like audio components with warranties and support.

 

I would agree. This, and some of the 'ducks nuts' solutions involve a few contradictions with convenience (witness any MPD user interface... it is not Roon).

 

I wasn't being pithy when I suggested it was unfortunate the WA crew (@Chanh and friends) didn't end up commercialising their work. Genuine works of trial, error and science are few and far between, and even rarer in the audiophile PC field. We're all rather lucky we got Snakeoil OS out of it, IMHO.

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58 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

We're all rather lucky we got Snakeoil OS out of it, IMHO.

Looks a little unmaintained and dead-end. I'd suggest a much better approach would be to start with an active and maintained distribution and then apply a layer of tuning over the top. Start with a customer installer for Arch, install the basic supporting packages like mpd, apply sysctl tunes, deploy basic affinity configuration with a package that applies tunes to systemd. One could pay a reasonable Linux type to do the job for less than the cost of a couple of high-end cables. Now's probably the time, a lot of people on downtime during lockdown. 

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3 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

I wasn't being pithy when I suggested it was unfortunate the WA crew (@Chanh and friends) didn't end up commercialising their work. Genuine works of trial, error and science are few and far between, and even rarer in the audiophile PC field. We're all rather lucky we got Snakeoil OS out of it, IMHO.

Thanks @rmpfyf! Not in this hobby to make money.
Though... I have since put together lots of computer audio server(ssss) for SNAers and our local audio enthusiasts. All for the fun and seldom joy...., no financial reward whatsoever.😃 I have a full time job for my living. 
 

I am a believer in ethernet cable....., and happy to be at doubter’s request for a demonstration of Audio differences. 😉
 

mate - if your here locally..., I would love to demonstrate to you the real Computer Audio servers.....

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3 minutes ago, Chanh said:

mate - if your here locally..., I would love to demonstrate to you the real Computer Audio servers.....

Mate - if we Victorians are ever welcomed across state borders again...

 

2 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

Looks a little unmaintained and dead-end. I'd suggest a much better approach would be to start with an active and maintained distribution and then apply a layer of tuning over the top. Start with a customer installer for Arch, install the basic supporting packages like mpd, apply sysctl tunes, deploy basic affinity configuration with a package that applies tunes to systemd. One could pay a reasonable Linux type to do the job for less than the cost of a couple of high-end cables. Now's probably the time, a lot of people on downtime during lockdown. 

I've got time for them. It's one guy who can program making a go of it and sharing what he's done (my code is a total dog's brekkie), sounds very good out of the box and can sound better with tweaking. Better even than that, the dev actually engages his customers. With code changes. Try that w/Roon :P 

 

The notion of 'paying experts for their time' in audiophile land-ia is a lost art. Unless it's bundled time a la DEQX. Then it's genius. 

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32 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Try that w/Roon

As far as I can tell with Roon, the new business model is threatening to cut off renderers that don't pay Roon as well, leaving their customers potentially high and dry. Feels a bit .. Sonos .. really. There's something about whole Roon pitch that makes me uncomfortable. I've had a look through their website, and I can't find any details of their licence terms or what components they use. I'd be deeply surprised if they wrote the entire codebase from scratch without the need to use open source libraries for, y'know, FLAC decoding or something. Yet the only external acknowledgement I could see was for some photography. There's just something that doesn't quite add up. 

 

But hey, I'll never be their target customer base. I don't rent my music and I'm not going to rent a method of playing it, and I bet their licence engine gets upset if it can't phone home. 

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20 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Your experiences would suggest there's a performance sensitivity to conducted noise.

Thanks for all those details, although I dint know how to implement the suggestions, and I'd wager most SNAers wont either.  Can you suggest how I and other would implement these?

 

Also, do you have suggestions for soecifucations/requirements for a router intended to help improve sound quality?

 

20 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

The effect of dampening on ICs is well known

If so, why havent you mentioned or suggested it before?

 

20 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

a more elegant solution would deal with performance sensitivities in a way that didn't necessitate your cracking open cases. 

Elegant in what way? The ECT is not visible once installed.

 

With a typical router, how would you suggest performance sensitivities are addressed?  Please provide solutions that I and most others could implement.

 

By typical, I mean not carrier class super router running a TV station or website - but suitable for a typical home.

 

21 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

UBNT is probably fine

What settings erc woukd you suggest to take advantage of the capabilities of this switch and EdgeRouter?

 

20 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

What he said

That is not a router, that is a different paradigm.

 

19 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

A device that suffers problems from internal components would by definition have a design problem. Maybe a grounding issue.

I'll be sure to pass in your ibservations to Mark Jenkins, he will likely haveca lengthy explanation.

 

My EX is grounded via Synergistic Research (SR) HD ground cable to SR Ground Block, whichsits in SR Tranquility POD and is connected to and conditioned by a Shunyata Noise Isolation Chamber (another NIC), then via dedicated 12 AWG ground wire to the Earth Rod.  I'd say the ground is sorted.

 

18 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

No, I'm saying that an expensive dedicated device shouldn't need cables to be replaced because they should have got it right in the first place.

Again, I'll pass on to Mark Jenkins.

 

Incidentally, the SATA data cables in the EX are foil sheilded. SATA power seemsto be just insulated wire.

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24 minutes ago, dbastin said:

I'd say the ground is sorted.

Based on your description, I'm not so sure.....  If gp noise moduation is affecting anything connected to your network equipment, then what you've described gives me no confidence that is "sorted".

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1 hour ago, dbastin said:

I'd say the ground is sorted.

Not your mains earthing, a grounding problem inside the unit. See, two types of computing hardware that suck for spurious noise -- anything boutique, and hand-built PCs. The former because the manufacturers just don't have the scale to do the testing that (say) Dell does, and the latter because instead of keeping all the hardware inside a metal box, it gets plexiglass noise emitting windows. Classic PC design has a steel drive cage and classic spinning rust drives have an aluminium chassis that is screwed at four points into that steel drive cage. SSDs are often plastic-cased and mounted with clips rather than screws. There's plenty of noise emission opportunities that might require tiny fixes. Classic power supply design puts the power supply in a steel box, pretty audiophile design keeps it visible so it can be visually appreciated. 

 

When you deal with a steady supply of server equipment, you'll get errata docs and see fixes over time. Like tiny copper fingers added into a surprising location because a noise issue popped up somewhere in the field. Even, in one case, a field rework kit with conductive tape. 

 

2 hours ago, dbastin said:

SATA data cables in the EX are foil sheilded. SATA power seemsto be just insulated wire.

That's industry-standard, DC power cabling is not generally shielded. 

 

2 hours ago, dbastin said:

dedicated 12 AWG ground wire to the Earth Rod

And an automated watering system to keep your earth rods damp, right? 

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35 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

 

And an automated watering system to keep your earth rods damp, right? 

My earth rod is 3mt x 5cm solid copper rod in a 12cm hole filled mainly with bentonite and some gypsum to keep things damp.

John

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3 hours ago, dbastin said:

Thanks for all those details, although I dint know how to implement the suggestions, and I'd wager most SNAers wont either.  Can you suggest how I and other would implement these?

 

One fibre run

Failing that, a fibre run into conversion (hopefully with a good switch) and a very short lead to your device

Failing that, a copper run, fibre isolator and a very short lead to your device

 

In all applicable cases the short lead is UTP 6a.

 

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

Also, do you have suggestions for soecifucations/requirements for a router intended to help improve sound quality?

 

 

Any router with per-port hardware resources is going to be best for timing

Next a router with a lot of CPU enough to run more than capably

 

For signal quality the enterprise-grade stuff is better dev'd

 

VLAN, subnetting, QoS etc all need to be supported

 

Large MTU is good though needs to be treated very carefully as this isn't automagically a win and is often lesser

 

Ubiquiti and Mikrotik are not where I"d go below, preferably the latter as getting exactly what you want out of one is $150/hr with a professional. $150+the cost of a decent 'tik is less than what a lot of you spend on a cable.

 

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

If so, why havent you mentioned or suggested it before?

 

 

That there's motion and a kinetic sensitivity is base physics, that designs need to be sufficiently robust to function adequately either way is a given.

 

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

Elegant in what way? The ECT is not visible once installed.

 

 

No one should have to void their warranty and crack something open for next best.

 

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

With a typical router, how would you suggest performance sensitivities are addressed?  Please provide solutions that I and most others could implement.

 

By typical, I mean not carrier class super router running a TV station or website - but suitable for a typical home.

 

 

See what I wrote earlier for hotrodding.

 

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

That is not a router, that is a different paradigm.

 

 

Half right - that's not a router, sure, but it's the same paradigm - and a more elegant solution.

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14 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Large MTU is good though needs to be treated very carefully as this isn't automagically a win and is often lesser

Are there any consumer devices that talk jumbo frames?

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5 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

Not your mains earthing, a grounding problem inside the unit.

I'm still learning about ground.  I have 2 grounds really, one is the earth wires in the power dustribution, the other is taken from the ground of the circuit.  For instance, the EX ground cable is on the RCA jack.

 

Both are conditioned via the Shunyata NIC and go to the same earth rod for identical earth potential.  But importantly neither share earth with the rest of my homes power, except the earth rod.

 

I previously created a couple of threads about grounding.

 

4 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

getting exactly what you want out of one is $150/hr with a professional

Who would know what to do? Can it be done via remote access?

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22 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Who would know what to do?

 

Many Mikrotik resellers down here run a very good and robust consultancy. I use Duxtel, they're excellent to deal with. 

 

Your issue is going to be knowing what to ask, but this forum can go a long ways to that.

 

22 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Can it be done via remote access?

 

 

Absolutely - it's almost always done via remote access.

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1 minute ago, rmpfyf said:

knowing what to ask

Well, are you teasing, what do I ask?

 

Did you mention before Duxtel also can do physical mods like clocks, power regulators?

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1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Well, are you teasing, what do I ask?

Really depends what you're trying to achieve. If you just want a device to act as a last leg just for audio there's really nothing they need to do, but you can have them configure anything from VLANs to VPN, QoS and WiFi very capably. They will get a *lot* done in an hour, so look at it as a whole-of-house thing rather than anything else.

 

Why don't  you start with what you want your network to be configured like, let's get that discussion going and take it from there?

 

They'll ultimately generate a configuration that, within limits, you can take from router to router so all will be well.

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Did you mention before Duxtel also can do physical mods like clocks, power regulators?

 

Duxtel would say you're on your own with physical mods. Though any competent electrical tech could do that stuff - so could a DAC builder. My guys are all east coast, not sure who you'd go to in Perth though I imagine an answer if any may lie with @Chanh and friends.

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20 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

The first step to cleaning up a network is to map it. I'd suggest you start with mapping out every single device and cable. 

 

20 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Why don't  you start with what you want your network to be configured like, let's get that discussion going and take it from there?

How about we create a fictional typical household as follows:

 

4 occupants each with 3 devices , in total being:

  • 4 wired devices such as lap tops/PCs
  • 12 wifi devices such as phones, tablets, Google Home

Shared entertainment devices being:

  • 1 x game console
  • 2 x HD/UHD TVs, 
  • 2 x video streamers/recorders
  • 2 x music streamers
  • the Hifi, of course

As there is only 4 people lets assume at most say 6 devices at one time (ie. peak use)

  • Perhaps also throw in some some (always on smart home devices, lets say 6?

Lets concentrate on what network equipment would be adequate to accommodate this usage and enable best performance for the Hifi sound quality.

  • For the Router I suggest to 4 or more SFPs, so only the WAN from nbn box is wired, to keep noise from other devices (and cables) out of the router - ie. fibre is the backbone distribution.
  • 2-3 Wifi Access points or repeaters for decent coverage - PoE or wall wart PSU.
  • 2-3 switches, with minimum 1 x SPF each

With switches, there would be one at each group of entertainment devices (ie. TV, game console), and one or more for the rest to provide an outlet to each bedroom, study/office, and AP.

 

This could be a foundation that could be added to/expanded for instance if a household has more occupants, more devices, or home office.  

 

Is this something we can work on?

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1 hour ago, dbastin said:

 

How about we create a fictional typical household as follows:

 

4 occupants each with 3 devices , in total being:

  • 4 wired devices such as lap tops/PCs
  • 12 wifi devices such as phones, tablets, Google Home

Shared entertainment devices being:

  • 1 x game console
  • 2 x HD/UHD TVs, 
  • 2 x video streamers/recorders
  • 2 x music streamers
  • the Hifi, of course

As there is only 4 people lets assume at most say 6 devices at one time (ie. peak use)

  • Perhaps also throw in some some (always on smart home devices, lets say 6?

 

Don't be fictional - is this your home?

Do you have any wired devices outside the home (IP cameras etc)?

 

How big is the house and what's the construction?

Do you need wireless outdoor? If so what's the property like for size?

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Lets concentrate on what network equipment would be adequate to accommodate this usage and enable best performance for the Hifi sound quality.

  • For the Router I suggest to 4 or more SFPs, so only the WAN from nbn box is wired, to keep noise from other devices (and cables) out of the router - ie. fibre is the backbone distribution.
  • 2-3 Wifi Access points or repeaters for decent coverage - PoE or wall wart PSU.
  • 2-3 switches, with minimum 1 x SPF each

With switches, there would be one at each group of entertainment devices (ie. TV, game console), and one or more for the rest to provide an outlet to each bedroom, study/office, and AP.

 

 

Don't rush into solution mode just yet. 

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To be frank, I don't mind looking into a problem and helping someone with something specific on my own time. If I have to look at theoretical problems and write multi-case solutions with allowances that spans to an entire network design complete with physical cabling -- that's work, and my daily rate starts at $2500/day. I'm also aware of the fact that I agreed to some terms and conditions when I signed up for this site years ago, and I'm not comfortable with publishing a very substantial body of work where I may relinquish copyright as soon as I hit post. 

 

To properly document such a solution, even for a small home network scenario such as above would take quite a substantial amount of effort and produce a substantial amount of documentation. Also, on a home network, before I asked any questions about number of wifi devices, I'd be asking about whether it was acceptable to modify the property, how big is the cabling budget and can I please have the floorplans to work from? 

 

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This is puzzling.  Imagine this ...

 

Jo is gifted with the appreciation of art.  She has a peice of art she wants to hang so she can fully appreciate it.  

 

She decides to go about doing it herself, even though she only has some knowledge of hardware.

 

She determines she needs a drill to secure a hook to a wall on which to hang the peice of art.  

 

Jo visits the hardware store and asks for advice.  She is unsure what to ask.

 

Jo tells the shop assistant she has a 1 kg artwork to hang on a brick wall, and asks what type of drill she needs.

 

The assistant says she needs a structural engineers report before proceeding, which will cost $1000.

 

The drills only cost $100 and her artwork is worth only $200.

 

Jo is puzzled!

 

She decides to speak to a structural engineer about it.  She remembers a very knowledgable person at the local community garden is a structural engineer.  So next time she meets him at the garden, sharing a passion they have in common, Jo asks him about her situation.

 

He smiles and says a report would be ideal, however in his vast experience with these types of things, having prepared many reports for much more complex situations, a cordless hammer drill will be more than adequate for such a small hole in a very robust brick wall.  Jo asks if a 12v or 18v drill would be best.  The engneer replies 18v would be worthwhile if she intends to drill bigger holes into harder materials such as concrete. He adds that the lower cost drills probably wont perform as well in the longer term if used heavily, but you wont need a tradesman grade tool.

 

Jo thanks the engineer and offers a gesture of appreciation.  The engineer smiles again and says "oh, it was nothing really, that is not necessary, I am happy to help you appreciate your art."

 

Nevertheless she gives him a peck in the cheek and makes him a hot chocolate the way she know he likes it.  He gives some suggestions about torque settings, drill bits and how much pressure to apply when drilling. And sends her some helpful guides.

 

Imagine how he feels after that ... and then when he discovers Jo passed on his tips to her art loving girlfriends.

 

And this is not the opening scene for a cheesy adult flick.

 

By now I hope you are smiling.

 

Our situation is similar.  However we need a router rather than a drill and wish to know weather to choose 400MHz or 800MHz, single or dual core, if there really is much extra benefit in spending $270 rather than $150 on the router, and generally what settings to use.  

 

I truely respect the capabilities of experts.  In the scheme of things, all I am hoping is some scaled down tips to benefit members to enjoy something we have in common.

 

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Jo buys a 36V Makita cordless rotary hammer and a giant SDS bit because bigger is better and drills through her wall, a water pipe, two electrical cords and into her neighbour's apartment. Her creepy neighbour spies on her through the hole. 

 

For most home users looking to give their network a rebuild with a view to quality, I'd recommend the Unifi "stack" with gateway, switches and access point. This is because their product is easy to install, maintain and there's a huge user community ready to answer questions. There's enough featureset there to handle cases like multiple VLANs for subnets, policy controls and I believe there's even a pre-cooked radius server now for doing WPA-Enterprise. 

 

The problem with recommending Cisco, Juniper, etc, solutions is people's eyes tend to glaze over when the instructions start with "Connect your serial cable to the console port, 9600 8N1" ...

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