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There's always going to be a little friction in these discussions because people who actually do networks (and other IT) for a living deal in hard reality and not wishy thinking.   Networks

@rmpfyf I’ve lost interest in discussions about Ethernet, cables, switches and routers around here.  Please leave me out.   There are way too many people on here with a deep seated belief that

John, I'm just a tad experienced in networking and have decades of experience delivering far more time sensitive and bandwidth heavy applications than audio.   I've been involved in design a

48 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Dale, it was in my post last night - good enterprise-grade switch > fibre > etherregen > very short CAT6 UTP lead > streamer.

Ah, so you are suggesting no router!

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4 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Ah, so you are suggesting no router!

There's to be a router above all this, sure, but it's not nearly as essential to your areas of interest as what happens downstream.

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1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

Very much untrue. A modern CPU is extremely timing sensitive, and in particular the way it manages power states (very) quickly and the knock-on effects for upstream power system design mean a modern PC is a rig designed for flexible power scaling, not for rock-steady repeatable periodic performance - and the two really are quite opposing design goals. Now it's not timing-sensitive in a way that a minor timing issue will throw out functionality, it's the inverse - it's inherently designed to be highly tolerant of timing variance. That doesn't mean timing is important, it means that if you want a CPU to deliver an outcome in a highly resolute and dependent way, it'll be done indirectly and with very specific controls. 

If I read you correctly, you are saying CPUs are extremely robust in their jitter management.  But are you saying that jitter at, say, the router CPU is potentially audible?

 

My (probably over-simplified) argument was intended to state that jitter incurred at these CPU points upstream of the DAC is not the problem.  If I read your statement correctly, we agree that the mechanisms built into these CPUs ensure that timing errors / jittery signals are inconsequential to the integrity of the signal transmission.

Edited by Stereophilus
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Ethernet frame timing isn't jitter. Badly formed ethernet frames will be discarded, but they are created by a MAC that has nothing else to do so if the actual frames having a timing problem the switch is faulty and should be discarded. 

 

To dig for analogy, talking about the impact of frame timing on ethernet would be like saying your CD sounded different because auspost sent it on an odd journey to your house. It either arrived on time and you had music, or it didn't show up on time and you had no music. That's just dragging the time scale out. 

 

Carrying the analog a little further, you listen to one CD a day. On average, one CD a day turns up in the mail. Sometimes no CD, sometimes two. You keep a small stack of CDs next to the player so you never run out because the post doesn't come on weekends or bad weather. That's readahead, buffering, caching, etc. Now, the council tears up the road past your house (cable broken) and the postman skips your delivery for a week and your stack is empty. Now you've got an audible drop-out and you're miserable (like most auspost customers). So being a forward-planning individual, you figure you'll solve this with more read-ahead, buffering and caching and keep a month's supply of CDs. Now your supply line can be interrupted and as long as it catches back up to the overall rate of 1 CD a day, you'll never be high and dry.

 

Your neighbour is a bit skeptical of the postal service, and keeps a stack of 200 CDs next to his player at all times. It takes a little while tidy up the stack at the start of playing (filling a deep buffer) but he'll be listening to the latest Beatles re-issue while you've got dead air because the new postal worker has given your CDs to the next street over for the last week. That's using tweaked-up overkill buffering and readahead to make sure there's no problems and this is the scenario where you can pull the cable and the music keeps on coming because the entire track and part of the next one are already in RAM. 

 

On tiny UPNP/DLNA implementations -- with very small amounts of memory and no filesystem layer to add buffer and readahead -- an overloaded NAS can cause audible glitches because the buffer is empty. The cure for this is to take the tiny UPNP/DLNA implementation and put it in the bin while sighing gently, OR to make sure you have a storage head that doesn't get overloaded. 

 

The moral of the story: always have a deep stack of CDs to listen to, then you can ignore ethernet and be happy. 

 

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Beware ... a  slight rave 🤪🤪  

 

Geez, I have been thru some Networking gear over the past 30 years ....  and I was in IT for 45 years up until Dec last year.   I used to buy the latest and greatest Networking gear for my kids and me to play with from Fry's in the Silicon Valley and in LA when i was travelling for work.  My kids learnt heaps and we had lots of technical fun ...  I weirdly got into a serious cease and desist argument about homework with their Primary school Headmaster because my boys were using computers to research and then to print assignments out.   I would argue that Computers will become part of everyone's job in the future to no avail.  Eventually I found out the problem was that they had no access to computers, and felt threatened until they had experience.  In high school my oldest ended up running their first School network  😁

 

Both my sons are sparkys and both did a lot of Networking jobs.

 

A new home 6 years ago and Cat 6 to every room.  Yep was wonderful .... for a while ...

 

My main problem has always been getting enough bandwidth because as a family we became more and more bandwidth hungry, exponentially I reckon, gaming by the boys as teenagers where they would arrange gaming nights in my house, rooms and corridors filled with kids on computers and switches and cables running everywhere ...  playing against kids on the other side of the world ... amazing !!!!!   The nasty word was 'we are lagging'  !!!!!   

 

Then they grew up and it was businesses run from home, cloud hosting and required better upload speeds.

 

More recently connected monitoring devices resulted in implementing 2xADSL2 and a 4G data hub multiplexed into different groups so we didn't compete with one another .... finally NBN finally arrived this year and I now run a 100Mb plan with Aussie Broadband and thought all will be good ..  well it was for a short time.   Mmmm .. I feel a repeating theme ...

 

You see everybody in the family keeps buying and upgrading devices that want MORE wireless access.    Next step was a booster (satelite) hub (all TP-Link gear) and adding 4 wifi boosters that just plug into powerpoints to cover dead spots, including my shed, outside on the alfresco and within the house.  For a while we were travelling nicely again  ... however that recently reached a new limit ...  a quick wireless survey and there is a minimum of 21 devices connected, Hey Google devices, Nest smart devices, RING cameras, smart phones, smart watches, smart TV's, IQ cable boxes and the list goes on !!!!!   When the boys hit home we have up to 36 devices all chattering on the network.  My oldest then discovered that our monitoring devices were struggling to upload to their respective clouds.  You must be kidding is what I thought !!!!!

 

Audio .. so I have 4 devices that I use for Tidal, 1 is on Cat 6 and the rest are wifi, though I only use a max of 2 concurrently whilst the boys use Spotify, a max of 3 concurrently at times as we also have a stray staying with us as well ....  so lots of competition and we have lag problems,drop outs and excess buffering, which as we all know is REALLY ANNOYING on Audio.   I rarely have any problem on the Cat 6 network, its that damm wifi world !!!!

 

So this week we installed a Mesh wifi system ... Core unit plus Satellite, Orbi Wifi-6.  Tricky as we discovered its also a router and we had DHCP conflicts with the existing fixed Network until my son made the Orbi the only router in the house, so we disconnected the existing router and added the fixed Cat 6 switches to it as well.  Now we have no lagging, no buffering and the existing Ethernet (Cat 6) network  has now become the secondary network in the house, I was not expecting that to happen so fast.  The Mesh happily stretches up to the back shed as well and I just checked now and the Mesh Network is supplying 102.77 Mbps download and 38.07 Mbps upload.   In my office I am getting 68Mbps, in my Audio/theatre room I am getting 97Mbps which is overkill to stream Tidal and watch Netflix. I am very impressed with its performance and the way it efficiently manages so many devices concurrently.  No lagging on video, no buffering on Tidal, monitoring is now in real time.  Mesh is certainly the way to go for us ....

 

My thoughts for what ever they are worth ....

- Its about getting the bandwidth with minimal lagging (QoS) that your device requires.  Video (downloading and especially uploading) I found in our house is a lot more demanding that audio downloading.

- Wireless is by far the easiest to deploy, no dragging cables thru the house, and the technology just keeps improving.  I will only invest now in Wireless.  Mesh and Wifi-6 will rapidly become cheaper, plenty of new systems forecast towards the end of the year.

- Wireless is coming with just about every device, everything is being branded/marketed as Smart, you don't really have a choice than to embrace Wireless.  I was surprised at how many devices in my house now need wireless today.

- Audio to me is just another device requiring good QoS i.e,  guaranteed priority bandwidth with minimal lag.

- Audio; I just don't believe in buying special audio Ethernet cables, routers, switches. Your end devices take care of sequencing.  Just buy decent Networking gear that more than covers what you need today, as tomorrow you will likely need more. 

 

Last thought - I was fortunate to spend a day at a Network supplier forum many moons ago with a gentleman named Robert Metcalfe (worked for Xerox, who remembers the Star workstation running on Ethernet, it was the future of end user computing, took my breath away when I first saw it), now the forum was at the time of the great Token Ring vs Ethernet debate ... I can still remember Robert telling me over lunch that at that time Ethernet 10Mb 'is like somebody pissing in a 6ft pipe' 😆😆 and that over time it will just keep increasing  .. yep ... Ethernet won out, its Gbit now and labs are building Terabit !!!!    Copper should be dying in Networking but ...   Optic fiber and Wifi ....        Cao .....

Edited by Rosco8
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1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

If I read you correctly, you are saying CPUs are extremely robust in their jitter management.  But are you saying that jitter at, say, the router CPU is potentially audible?

A modern CPU can do its job irrespective of timing inaccuracies. It is accordingly not inherently designed to spit out data or a complex process in a temporally perfect manner.

 

Jitter is inconsequential to signal transmission. It is very consequential to managing a process that requires time-accurate outcomes. 

 

Ask a modern CPU to do one thing, and one thing only in a very explicitly programmed way. You'll get close to that with a very, very and I mean very stripped back operating system. Forget graphics. 

 

Ask it to do many things and those other things better happen regularly if you don't want an audible impact.

 

E.g. 

 

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Deal with an Ethernet packet

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Deal with an Ethernet packet

 

Sounds quite different (in a general sense) to something more irregular:

 

Play music

Play music

Deal with an Ethernet packet

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Deal with an Ethernet packet

Deal with an Ethernet packet

Play music

 

And that's vastly oversimplified.  Though you might get the drift here. Your modern CPU and OS ensures the Ethernet packets are dealt with and the music is played - eventually, ideally as close as possible to now or in some specified order of priority - but what it generally isn't is 

 

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

Play music

 

That'd be your average CD transport. Any interrupts there are genuine to your cause - hitting pause interrupts your playback which is fine, that's why you asked as much. 

 

The best way around this is to limit what your CPU needs to and quite literally tune out everything else. What @PCOWandre describes above and in an earlier post is just that - in not making Ethernet a problem/area where any improvement would bring about a benefit you can save a ton and do it smart. Upcoming standards literally force best behaviours and will work wonders IMHO when it's network direct to a DAC in an active rig, though good design downstream helps much.

 

I did a decent Eth system in mine and spend the most cash reclocking I2S... that's where it counts, IMHO.

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6 minutes ago, Rosco8 said:

Last thought - I was fortunate to spend a day at a Network supplier forum many moons ago with a gentleman named Robert Metcalfe

 

We're only 20 years in, sir, and I'd already like to nominate this comment for Casual Namedrop of the Century.

 

Here we are having a casual yarn over networking and you slide in with 'I was chatting with God recently'. 

 

Xerox my ass BTW. He worked a Xerox PARC, as you know. Those are some hallowed walls. 

 

I've lived and worked in Silicon Valley previously and would have given quite a bit for a casual yarn with Metcalfe. That dude is super impressive.

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On 16/09/2020 at 3:57 PM, rmpfyf said:

There's to be a router above all this, sure, but it's not nearly as essential to your areas of interest as what happens downstream.

Maybe not essential, well honestly none of this is essential, but it makes a difference.

 

I had very similar to what you suggest.

 

good enterprise-grade switch (Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch) > fibre > etherregen > very short CAT6 UTP lead (1m Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref ethernet) > streamer.

 

I changed from the stock iinet nbn router to Uniquiti EdgeRouter X (both using SMPS) and enjoyed an inprovement in SQ.  And this is just over Cat 5e UTP to the EdgeSwitch.    Based on my experience, I suspect the following will each provide SQ inprovements:

 

- better grade router

- LPS on router

- power for router via my power conditioner

- fibre from router to Switch or EtherRegen.

- ECT in router

 

And I am going to put a media convertor just after nbn box to run fibre to the router.

 

And have no wire ethernet into the router.

 

All this is pretty simple, low cost and likely provide quite good SQ for money.

 

So, some specific suggestions for enterprise grade routers with 4 or more SFPs would be very useful.

 

This is the realm of the network experts amingst us because there is only 2 audiophile routers, neither accept fibre.  One of these is also an audio component, also Waversa ...

 

https://www.kevalinaudio.com/product-page/waversa-wrouter

 

Edited by dbastin
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44 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

We're only 20 years in, sir, and I'd already like to nominate this comment for Casual Namedrop of the Century.

 

Here we are having a casual yarn over networking and you slide in with 'I was chatting with God recently'. 

 

Xerox my ass BTW. He worked a Xerox PARC, as you know. Those are some hallowed walls. 

 

I've lived and worked in Silicon Valley previously and would have given quite a bit for a casual yarn with Metcalfe. That dude is super impressive.

I wondered whether anyone would know who he was ... years later i actually visited the Xerox labs in San Diego .. specializing in electronic publishing ... PARC was gone but got to sit in one of those hallowed bean bags that was saved from the original labs.

Edited by Rosco8
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17 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Maybe npt essential, well honestly none of this is essential, but it makes a difference.

 

I had very similar to what you suggest.

 

good enterprise-grade switch Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch) > fibre > etherregen > very short CAT6 UTP lead (1m Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref ethernet) > streamer.

 

I changed from the stock iinet nbn router to Uniquiti EdgeRouter X (both using SMPS) and enjoyed an inprovement in SQ.  And thus is just over Cat 5e UTP to the EdgeSwitch. 

 

 

Neither the iinet gateway nor the EdgeRouter are enterprise grade. Neither is my Mikrotik. 

 

You will need a router though as per my comments, what you need sits upstream of what's already been suggested

 

1m is a long lead relative to what you're trying to achieve. Think of it this way - would you have a 1m lead from your DAC transport clock to where it's used if you could avoid it? I mean go really short. 

 

17 minutes ago, dbastin said:

So, some specific suggestions for enterprise grade routers with 4 or more SFPs would be very useful.

 

No. Not least as you're straight into solution mode, which is a dangerous place to be given what needs to be understood here.. Not least as there are very many solutions - how many fibre ports? What type? What support? What are your space requirement? Noise? Etc.. There's quite literally a plethora of solutions out here.

 

29 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Based on my experience, I suspect the following will each provide SQ inprovements:

 

- better grade router

- LPS on router

- power for router via my power conditioner

- fibre from router to Switch or EtherRegen.

- ECT in router

 

If you're going to try to hotrod any component it'd be the switch, not the router, though think of what you can actually change - there's no EMI down a fibre line, only packet timing.

 

38 minutes ago, dbastin said:

This is the realm of the network experts amingst us because there is only 2 audiophile routers, neither accept fibre.  One of these is also an audio component, also Waversa ...

 

https://www.kevalinaudio.com/product-page/waversa-wrouter

 

See, for that much money I'd sooner have a MERGING+NADAC, run RAVENNA on some very standard Ethernet cables and hardware, have next-gen audio-over-Ethernet performance, run any application I like and have something to actually listen to. 

 

For a good bit less money I had a I2S reclocker built and integrated, and a lot less dependence on what happens upstream.

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26 minutes ago, Rosco8 said:

I wondered whether anyone would know who he was ... years later i actually visited the Xerox labs in San Diego .. specializing in electronic publishing ... PARC was gone but got to sit in one of those hallowed bean bags that was saved from the original labs.

 

Fortunate in my career, I was doing Strategic Planning for IT from the early days so got to meet a lot of the great masterminds in IT.   l did my RDBMS database training under Dr Ted Codd (Author of the Relational data theory) and SQL training with Chris Date (Team lead of SQL at IBM).  I got pissed with Ted one evening and he told me how he obscured the Relational theory into a debate with Universities so IBM wouldn't catch on, as they would kill it to protect IMS.  It worked, the world got DB2.  I also did a half day session including an hour one on one with James Gosling in the fledgling years of Java ... he gave me a run down on where they pinched the different bits of Java from other languages.   I created Qantas.com and during that period spent a lot of time with Netwscape in the Valley and then with Sun Labs, which in those days was into some incredible initiatives, like interactive TV, the labs were managed by an ex United Airlines IT guy who had been the head of IT Aircraft Engineering.   So lucky ....

 

I'm going to PM you sometime to swap Silicon Valley war stories not least because yours are better than mine.

 

Sounds like you've had a hell of a ride.

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2 hours ago, Rosco8 said:

Robert Metcalfe

I vanish for a while to eat dinner and take all the blue LEDs out of a preamp, and I come back to name dropping the Father of Ethernet. Nice. The only member of the old guard I've met is McNealy.

 

Anyway, we're four pages in and still don't have a defined noise problem or network issue. Or any problem at all, other than a need to spend some moolah during these boring times.

 

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

you're straight into solution mode, which is a dangerous place to be given what needs to be understood here

This might be the most valuable contribution to the entire thread. The only time good IT decisions are ever made is when the problem is properly described and success/fail criteria. 

 

My setup? Cisco 3845 router, Cisco 3750G core switch, Procurve 1800 series in the office and loungeroom (managed, but fanless). Procurve 2810 48-port switches elsewhere. Storage heavy lifting on fibre channel, Brocade Silkworm 300. Medium/light lifting on NFS, with each storage head connected via quad gigabit LACP and compute on failover pairs of quad gigabit LACP. Mikrotik for VPNs to remote sites; 4G backup for those VPN links and BGP routing to make the magic happen.

 

And I hand terminated all my own long cables, and use 4cabling.com.au for all my patch leads. And my next network upgrade is waiting until I can find a 10 gig L3 switch that isn't going to cost the earth and isn't going to consume enough power to make me snarl any harder when the bill comes in. And talking of power, if I was going to upgrade anything that wasn't speakers/amp/dac to improve SQ, it might be more power management because in the Pariah State all six UPSes agree that the AC voltage swings between 215V and 249V every day. 

 

2 hours ago, dbastin said:

ECT in router

Being a router is depressing, but electro-convulsive therapy is just over the top. 

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29 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

For less money on ebay:

With that amount of backplane capacity, the Bandwidth Envy Coefficient will disrupt the quantum transmission of the audio passband.

Not to mention the cooling fans without phase lock.  Think of the modulation of the schumann field around the listening area.

 

When will you people learn.  :D

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9 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

I was going to try to add an arty snapshot of some happy home fibre, but it's cramped and bloody dark in the back of the rack, so you can have this poorly lit blur-pocalypse instead:

<epic phat fibre switch image>

Curious to know more about this box. Looks like 10G. Noisy?

 

My "audio" needs when it comes to switching and routing is something that doesn't sound like a jet engine.  That means the 40GbE switch that I would dearly love to kick into production is sitting on the floor collecting dust.  The house is such that I don't have a single space where loud, screeching fans can't be heard from a nearby room where either sleeping, or audio listening takes place.  Plan is to ensure the next place has a garage with sufficient space to drop an APC NetShelter CX in there and then I'm sorted, but until then, it's a 3750X with 2x10G and as I move further into 4K/8K video and moving large VMs around, gigabit quickly becomes a frustrating bottleneck.  I have a Cisco 2921 that I modded with Noctua fans and sits in a cupboard.  They're cheap enough that if I do fry the box somehow, I can get another one for loose change, but this will be an issue when I want to move to faster Internet; the 4451s can't be modded as easily.

 

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4 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

For less money on ebay:

s-l1600.jpg

Most would love that jet plane rush in the house. I remember when a supervisor

module for one of these was in excess of $120k aud. Not bad buying these days but there are more elegant solutions now.

 

i’ve always been more partial to Arista personally. I used to work at Cisco in years gone by and have sold a mountain of it over the years, but the elegance of Arista’s switching platform is next level.

 

i’ve spent a bunch of time at their labs and with people like Andy and Jayshree on a number of EBCs they hosted for us. Lincoln Dale (a local switching legend) was also working there before he moved to Google as a network architect and now AWS as a principal engineer.

 

i really should ping Lincoln to put his 2c in this thread. He’s knowledgeable well past Ethernet and deep into the asic design on these beasts. I’m sure his perspective would be interesting to say the least.

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Explain to me how I can download a lossless song over the internet, using WiFi out of an old router and it is still guaranteed to be bit-perfect.

If you can explain that, then you'll know the benefits of "audiophile routers" are non-existent.

Now I don't mind my fair share of snake oil, but this is going beyond the realm of possibility.

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4 hours ago, Zardoz said:

Curious to know more about this box. Looks like 10G. Noisy?

 

My "audio" needs when it comes to switching and routing is something that doesn't sound like a jet engine.  That means the 40GbE switch that I would dearly love to kick into production is sitting on the floor collecting dust.  The house is such that I don't have a single space where loud, screeching fans can't be heard from a nearby room where either sleeping, or audio listening takes place.  Plan is to ensure the next place has a garage with sufficient space to drop an APC NetShelter CX in there and then I'm sorted, but until then, it's a 3750X with 2x10G and as I move further into 4K/8K video and moving large VMs around, gigabit quickly becomes a frustrating bottleneck.  I have a Cisco 2921 that I modded with Noctua fans and sits in a cupboard.  They're cheap enough that if I do fry the box somehow, I can get another one for loose change, but this will be an issue when I want to move to faster Internet; the 4451s can't be modded as easily.

 

 

I share your 'stuff I can no longer have in this house' pain :) 

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1 hour ago, Gabehcuod said:

Explain to me how I can download a lossless song over the internet, using WiFi out of an old router and it is still guaranteed to be bit-perfect.

If you can explain that, then you'll know the benefits of "audiophile routers" are non-existent.

Now I don't mind my fair share of snake oil, but this is going beyond the realm of possibility.

 

Read up, it's mentioned earlier in the thread.

If there's anything to optimise it's not for data integrity.

 

This said, some 'audiophile' cable vendors insist it's so... which is ridiculous, and deserves the comment you've just made (and then some).

 

Case in point...

 

Edited by rmpfyf
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On 13/09/2020 at 5:31 PM, Stereophilus said:

I’m looking at getting a mesh wifi router for my house.  Looking at something like this:

 

https://www.asus.com/au/Networking/ZenWiFi-AX-XT8/

 

I chose this one as it has QoS.

 

My question is, would this be any worse for audio, compared to say a purely Ethernet router, like a Ubiquiti Edge?

 

I plan to use it connected directly to the NBN modem, and then using a ethernet from one of the LAN ports to the music room.  The mesh wifi is for everything else in the house.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I did the same thing this week but with a Orbi AX6000 and have the existing switches all plugged in  .. very quick ..  video and audio is great, no lagging or noticeable buffering which i was having, especially on video ...  the ASUS is also half the price of the Orbi which is great value 🤔🤔   Mesh eliminated all the dead spots which i had covered with additional access points and extenders which i removed.  Initially had a DHCP conflict with the existing Load Balancing router but once we removed it and simplified the network onto the Orbi all is good.  Notice the ASUS, as does the Orbi do have the odd compatibility issues with some devices.  Happy chappy now and recommend Mesh.

Edited by Rosco8
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8 minutes ago, Rosco8 said:

Initially had a DHCP conflict with the existing Load Balancing router but once we removed it and simplified the network onto the Orbi all is good.

Orbi is really great. I had the same issue with DHCP, but in my case I changed the Orbi's device mode as access point instead of router and kept my existing pfsense box as router with DHCP server. Works a treat. 

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36 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Case in point...

 

Good video, but little misleading in saying that there is only one chance at getting the audio through cable and there is no resent for missing bits. Everytime one streams audio/video there is a little buffer at the receiver end, and if the buffer isn't enough with all the bits, it simply won't play and either pause for it to complete or errors out. Faster network would improve this with less waiting time at the buffer end and smoother playback.

 

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On 13/09/2020 at 7:40 PM, Stereophilus said:

I think another WAP will work, I just thought I’d upgrade the other 3 WAPs at the same time... so price compared to the XT8 became a lot closer.

 

Aside from this, and back onto something closer to the topic, does separating wireless routing duties from the wired router offer any benefit (audio specific or otherwise)?  Or is it ok to have 1 device doing all the routing?

I am with you ... with multiple WAPS and extenders I still had issues, primarily with external monitoring device uploads.  Running more Cat 6 to external points and adding external (or ceiling edge) WAPs probably would have solved it but how much gear and complexity do you want to add for a single house ?  is it adding bandwidth inefficiencies ?  I have a long house and a large work shed 30m up my back yard (test shows shed reception is 93% signal and 162 Mbps) on a small acreage.  The 2 device Mesh simplified all the peripheral gear I had running and I now have great coverage across my house and block, the only limitations is NBN, when we built as per NBN recommendation we ran additional conduit 65m for the Labour Govt promised NBN fibre connection, so even with a new subdivision under LNP they ran copper to the house, thank you Mr Murdoch for degrading our countries Network, at least we now have fibre to the curb.  For me Mesh is worth the additional cost, is it overkill, probably.  The Mesh router also manages the wired network.

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6 hours ago, Zardoz said:

Curious to know more about this box. Looks like 10G. Noisy?

Brocade Silkworm 300. Fibre channel, 8 gig. There is no greater (storage) joy than SAN booting all your workstations.

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49 minutes ago, :) Go Away (: said:

Good video, but little misleading in saying that there is only one chance at getting the audio through cable and there is no resent for missing bits. Everytime one streams audio/video there is a little buffer at the receiver end, and if the buffer isn't enough with all the bits, it simply won't play and either pause for it to complete or errors out. Faster network would improve this with less waiting time at the buffer end and smoother playback.

 

 

It's a highly misleading video.

 

There's stuff to be had in optimising networks for best audio playback but on the sort of drivel in that video I can understand the tone of @Gabehcuod's reaction - I'd think it quite restrained, actually.

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4 hours ago, Gabehcuod said:

Explain to me how I can download a lossless song over the internet, using WiFi out of an old router and it is still guaranteed to be bit-perfect.

If you can explain that, then you'll know the benefits of "audiophile routers" are non-existent.

Now I don't mind my fair share of snake oil, but this is going beyond the realm of possibility.

I cannot provide an answer to your conundrum.   What is your perception of my conundrums? There are more things than just the whether correct bits are present and perfect.

 

 

A few years ago, I swapped over to the NBN from an ADSL service because I had to.  Fine it works well.  I ended up with a new faster router.  After a few days of the NBN I perceived a small but perceptible improvement in system playback.  Why?  At the time nothing else had changed in my system.  I had no idea but the benefit was there.  I asked people who know about these things.  The answer was that my home network would be faster and that network interrupts would happen faster.  So, components would spend more time doing what they were supposed to be doing and not responding to the router.  This may or may not be correct.  The definite thing is that something beneficial happened for network.  The files did not alter because of the NBN.

 

 

I now have audio quality network switches.  Two are 5V DC powered.  They came with smps and the switches provided a benefit.  Yesterday I powered both with a quality LPS.  Immediately there was a noticeable beneficial improvement in SQ.  Why?  The file going through the switches was not different.

 

 

There is more to network switches and cables than you might be willing to acknowledge.  You may be surprised if you tried

 

John

Edited by Assisi
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3 hours ago, :) Go Away (: said:

Good video, but little misleading in saying that there is only one chance at getting the audio through cable and there is no resent for missing bits

"A little misleading"   ?!?!?!?

 

LOL LOL LOL

He may as well be telling people up is down.

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5 hours ago, recur said:

Most would love that jet plane rush in the house. I remember when a supervisor

module for one of these was in excess of $120k aud. Not bad buying these days but there are more elegant solutions now.

 

i’ve always been more partial to Arista personally. I used to work at Cisco in years gone by and have sold a mountain of it over the years, but the elegance of Arista’s switching platform is next level.

 

i’ve spent a bunch of time at their labs and with people like Andy and Jayshree on a number of EBCs they hosted for us. Lincoln Dale (a local switching legend) was also working there before he moved to Google as a network architect and now AWS as a principal engineer.

 

i really should ping Lincoln to put his 2c in this thread. He’s knowledgeable well past Ethernet and deep into the asic design on these beasts. I’m sure his perspective would be interesting to say the least.

 

I recall Lincoln Dale loaning me some Cisco Nexus 5K gear (when it was new) to run some LAN gaming events with. 

 

Hearing some great names being dropped in this thread :) 

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Hi,

 

I have only joined this forum recently and was curious when I read in one of the classified pages I believe, the sale of 'audio ethernet cables'. Now, I do not have an in-depth knowledge of all audio gear available in the market as it is not my expertise.

 

Are we talking just standard, TCP/IP over Ethernet networks here? If so I would assume that the payload (audio) is being processed and transmitted by a computer via an application and received by a dedicated unit such as a DAC (which also runs an application) or even, another computer that is acting as a receiver and ultimately the DAC.

 

If this is the case then any networking equipment that you can purchase for the home in 2020 will more than suffice. Get it from BigW, JB HiFi, wherever. It has zero influence on audio quality. No need to spend big bucks, install racks, powering the rack, then cooling, and the noise and the ugliness. Cheap(er) equipment may not handle more than two devices transmitting at a 'high throughput' but, really, that would only influence the buffer on the receiving end. Increase the buffer size. It would never impact audio quality.

 

If your home network demands more throughput with less buffering (throttling ultimately) then get higher grade gear. Same if you want more wireless coverage.

 

Is there something obvious I have missed here?

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19 minutes ago, bigev said:

Is there something obvious I have missed here?

Nope. Other than the marketing prowess of certain companies and their desire to build new markets for their products. And yes, it is all standard TCP. 

 

In a lot of cases, the HiFi industry is a shrinking market. New product categories are needed to drive growth, and thus .. thousand dollar ethernet cables indeed. DIRECTIONAL ethernet cables at that. 

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45 minutes ago, bigev said:

Is there something obvious I have missed here?

A fanatical devotion to the pope arcane mumbo jumbo.

 

Apologies to Monty Python.

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2 hours ago, Assisi said:

I cannot provide an answer to your conundrum.   What is your perception of my conundrums? There are more things than just the whether correct bits are present and perfect.

 

 

A few years ago, I swapped over to the NBN from an ADSL service because I had to.  Fine it works well.  I ended up with a new faster router.  After a few days of the NBN I perceived a small but perceptible improvement in system playback.  Why?  At the time nothing else had changed in my system.  I had no idea but the benefit was there.  I asked people who know about these things.  The answer was that my home network would be faster and that network interrupts would happen faster.  So, components would spend more time doing what they were supposed to be doing and not responding to the router.  This may or may not be correct.  The definite thing is that something beneficial happened for network.  The files did not alter because of the NBN.

 

 

I now have audio quality network switches.  Two are 5V DC powered.  They came with smps and the switches provided a benefit.  Yesterday I powered both with a quality LPS.  Immediately there was a noticeable beneficial improvement in SQ.  Why?  The file going through the switches was not different.

 

 

There is more to network switches and cables than you might be willing to acknowledge.  You may be surprised if you tried

 

John

Very good explanation and insight John, unfortunately at least half of the population lack the ability of open mindedness - so best to not feed them! 😉

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