frednork Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 what they said! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 So, getting back to routers ... I have Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP. It has a DC input and can run on 12v if PoE is not needed/enabled. It has 1 x SFP. I think it cost about $130. I spoke with Microtek dealer who suggested there is unlikely to be any benefit changing to Microtek router. It is located here .. nbn connection box > 2m Cat 5e or 6 UTP (not labelled) > EdgeRouter > about 12m Cat 5e UTP > hifi ethernet system. Previously I put a Synergistic Research ECT in it and gained a worthwhile benefit. I experimented with it a bit more. This time with power. I have a spare Antipodes Edge with its ODAPS 12v power supply. So I replaced the Uptone SMPS that was powering the router with the ODAPS. The benefit was minor but obvious with the 1st track, and confirmed each track after. Next I removed the ODAPS and reinstaded the Uprone. But this time change the power as follows: Furutech GTX D outlet Shunyata Ztron Anaconda cable Shunyata Cyclops conditioner VooDoo Audio Silver Dragon cable Again the benefit was minor but obvious with the 1st track, and confirmed each track after. However, the sound character was different to ODAPS. So I now have the router here ... nbn connection box > 2m Cat 5e or 6 UTP (not labelled) > about 12m Cat 5e UTP > Wireworld Platinum > EdgeRouter > hifi ethernet system. It is powered by a Core Audio Ķora LPS, Shunyata Ztron Alpha Digital cable, Shunyata Triton v2. This is powered via Shunyara Ztron Sigma and dedicated audio grade AC cable. It replaces the Edgeswitch 10, so now the nerwork has one less switch in the chain. It is connected to EtherRegen via Afterdark Cat 7 because forcsome reason the fibre connection was not functioning. i previously observed this Cat 7 being quite similar to fibre. This final placement is quite a bit better than just ODAPS or just Anaconda/Cyclops combo, but honestly I expected more. It may be because I put the ODAPS to power the EtherRegen because that provided the best sound. The ODAPS is better than the Kora that was previously powering the EtherRegen. If I had another ODAPS to power the router, that could be even more amazing than the current outcome. Of interest I noted the EdgeRouter was using only 27% or its RAM and 0-10% CPU, mostly 0-5%. There were no other users. This was streaming Tidal 16 bit 44kHz tracks, I dont know how to find higher res tracks on tidal. Nevertheless, its easily better than 24 bit 96kHz tracks I have on SSD (which is presently removed from the server). Next I will tinker with power cords and try to use fibre. $300 extra for a Edgerouter 12 to get a 2nd SFP maybe another step. Routers with more SFPs (actually jump into SFP+) include: Microtek CCR2004-1G-12S+2XS ($600) but it does not have a switching chip (uses 9 core CPU instead) and has built in PSU EdgeRouter Infinity at $2700 is not viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCOWandre Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 13 hours ago, dbastin said: EdgeRouter Infinity at $2700 is not viable. C'mon, that's only a couple of power cables... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCOWandre Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Being a little more serious, you shouldn't see the EdgeRouter burning much RAM or CPU since you're not using a lot of features. Load it up with BGP and policy based routing and complex packet filtering and the load might go up. If you just need more SFP/SFP+ ports, go for a dedicated switch. Dig through fleabay, there's some bargain Procurves with 4 SFP cages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) My objectives are: 1. minimise noise getting into the rrouter/switch the hifi is connected to - by way of only connecting via fibre, and using quality power supply 2. minimise the number/cost of LPSs and power cords The EdgeRouter X SFP has a dual core 880MHz CPU and 256MB RAM (plus 256MB storage for code). Given such small load on CPU some Microtek CRS (switches with limited router capacity) may be a good solution. In particular the $150 CRS305 has single core 800MHz CPU and 512MB RAM, and of course designed around switch chip. This exceeds processing power of Microtek routers upto the $150 mark. Apparently it can cope with about 1Gbps ... https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in#fndtn-testresults Whereas nbn delivers about 20Mbps for a moderate plan or 80Mbps for top speed plan ... merely fractions of 1Gbps. Given my observations about CPU and RAM usage on EdgeRouter X, I suspect the CRS 305 would be ample. CPU would be underutilised and thus probably not get too hot. But would 512MB RAM be adequate for hi res audio files? I gather MQA keeps file size down. Does the likes of Tidal stream DSD? CRS309 provides same processing but with 3 more SFP cages for about $100 more. The CRS106 with 400Mhz single core CPU and 128MB RAM would probably perform well enough for just $60. Edited October 8, 2020 by dbastin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCOWandre Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 A beaten up Cisco 2600 from the 90s can keep up with hires audio streaming with 16MB of RAM and a 40Mhz CPU. The only router not able to keep up would be a faulty router. At this point, you can pretty much buy anything with the right connectivity and be happy. I still think you need to focus on finding the source of your noise problem rather than worrying abouts 'speeds & feeds' on the router. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, PCOWandre said: If you just need more SFP/SFP+ ports, go for a dedicated switch. Dig through fleabay, there's some bargain Procurves with 4 SFP cages. Problems: - Not easy to use LPS - Extra power cord - Extra device possibly injecting noise Edited October 8, 2020 by dbastin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCOWandre Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 We're going to agree to disagree on this one, OK? I'm going to say putting a linear power supply on a router/switch is just silly, you're going to tell me you can hear the difference, I'm going to point out the router/switch board has a number of switch mode supplies on it anyway, you're going to tell me that doesn't matter. The conversation is getting pretty circular at this point. There's going to be a bit about removing noise, I'm going to ask where the noise is coming from, and it stops and goes back to something else. Your next equipment investment should be a scope to find noise. They're not expensive these days and you can look for noise on power supplies, marvel at the horrible S/PDIF waveforms on so much equipment and plug the scope into your DAC output playing silence and plug/unplug things to find noise. Find the networking kit that looks and feels right and enjoy it. There's no technical justifications at this level, so chalk it up the pursuit of happiness. I don't need a 20 core Xeon workstation with 256GB of RAM on a measured technical level, but I like it and it makes me happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 11 minutes ago, PCOWandre said: I still think you need to focus on finding the source of your noise problem 15 hours ago, dbastin said: nbn connection box > 2m Cat 5e or 6 UTP (not labelled) > about 12m Cat 5e UTP > Wireworld Platinum > EdgeRouter > hifi ethernet system By process of elimination the noise can only be from a. nbn box and its psu b. the Cat 5e/6 cable being unshielded c. the Access Point and its SMPS, and the power circuit it is plugged into. Nothing else was connected. I will try to power a and c via the Cyclops combo. And replace b with fibre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCOWandre Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Can you make a recording of what it sounds like? Might help work out what it is. Recently, a small town found their town-wide broadband outages were caused by noise emanating from an old fridge. The source could be a long way away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 21 minutes ago, PCOWandre said: Your next equipment investment should be a scope to find noise. They're not expensive these days and you can look for noise on power supplies, marvel at the horrible S/PDIF waveforms on so much equipment and plug the scope into your DAC output playing silence and plug/unplug things to find noise. Am not sure this is the kind of noise @dbastinis referring to but am interested in trying this. Can you explain/point to somewhere which shows, how to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCOWandre Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 For example -- connect scope to DC power supply. The ideal result is a flat line on the screen. If it isn't dead-flat, you have ripple or noise. Now you can change things and look for a change on the screen; and look at the type of noise and determine an appropriate fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 10 hours ago, PCOWandre said: Can you make a recording of what it sounds like? No. This is not 'noise' that can specifically be heard. It has an impact on sound quality. When it is reduced sound quality improves. I'd say those that have experienced this a lot can hear a system and comment on how much noise there isn't ... that's what is meant by comments about low noise floor. It can probably be measured with a scope but I am confident using my ears, perception and experience. And no my ears are not golden, I am sure others have much better abilities than me. I changed the Shunyata ztron Alpha Digital power cord to ztron Anaconda to power the LPS and EdgeRouter. The character is a bit differentbut the Anaconda is superior in most ways esp midrange clarity, except doesnt make a kick drum feel quite as much like a throbbing heart. I can now comfortably have sound level higher where previously it would become irritating. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 21 hours ago, dbastin said: No. This is not 'noise' that can specifically be heard. It has an impact on sound quality. When it is reduced sound quality improves. I'd say those that have experienced this a lot can hear a system and comment on how much noise there isn't ... that's what is meant by comments about low noise floor. For me you have “hit the proverbial nail on the head”. It was some years ago that I first experienced a reduction in noise floor and could appreciate the resulting sound quality benefits. The absence of anything between the notes is profoundly important. The more things that you do to reduce the noise floor the better the listening experience becomes. I have been pursuing noise floor reduction in various ways ever since my first light bulb moment. In the context of Ethernet switches and cables it is said by some that as long as the 1s and 0s are delivered intact and on time life is fine. To me that is a definite misunderstanding of the overall situation. If along with the 1s and 0s there is unwanted noise, interference or resonance then you will hear the notes generated by the 1s and 0s plus everything else that should not be in the sound stage. Implement strategies such as audio quality switches and cables to mitigate the unwanted interference etc and the listening experience is consequently enhanced. It is so simple. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted October 22, 2020 Author Share Posted October 22, 2020 Here's some helpful tips I got from Ubiquiti community and Support pages to get EdgeRouter up and running. It probably took me about 15-30 minutes and I am a novice. Basic setup guide can be found here Crosstalk Solutions tutorial videos can be found here Access the router https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001016814-EdgeRouter-How-to-Access-the-EdgeRouter Run the Basic Wizard Most NBN services are DHCP based where no credentials are required for authority. DHCP is the most common and is the default setup. Connect your Edgerouter and set up the WAN as a DHCP connection. https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/204952254-EdgeRouter-DHCP-Server It will be necessary to take the brave step of removing your existing router and repacing it with the EdgeRouter. I also followed this, and other links it provided. https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002531728-EdgeRouter-Beginners-Guide-to-EdgeRouter These may also be useful https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/205146110-EdgeRouter-How-to-Upgrade-the-EdgeOS-Firmware https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/217990978-EdgeRouter-Configure-an-EdgeRouter-as-a-Layer-2-Switch https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/204976244-EdgeRouter-Ubiquiti-Device-Discovery https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016435194-Intro-to-Networking-Fiber-Optic-Cable-and-Transceiver-Types https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/204959574-EdgeRouter-SFP-SFP-and-DAC-Compatibility-List I hope this helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 I have a no brainer improvement that brings $1000s worth of improvement for just $230! (sorry no steak knives). I have been working towards setting up a router that is fibre only so it is isolated from noise carried over wires. Also I hear Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP are no longer available. I have a Mikrotik CRS 106 and 305, the latter is SFP+ and according to Audiophilestyle folks SFP+ has a higher spec in terms of jitter etc, including a femto clock (thanks to @Duke40 for the tip). The 106 has a plastic case than can't be opened, whereas the 305 has a metal case than can, and actually looks OK. CRS is short for Cloud Router Switch. These CRS are based on a switch chip and the router is software based (whereas I gather true routers are hardware based). Being software based its probably not up to running a bank, but fine for home if the settings don't get too taxing on the CPU to process.. I leapt right into the 305, and with help from Duxtel managed to work out the settings in its RouterOS which is a lot more involved than Ubiquiti As a replacement for EdgeRouter X SFP the CRS 305 is noticeably better by a moderate margin - actually I'd say more than going from ISP cheap router to EdgeRouter X SFP. Clean and lean sound. Midrange is a lot more clear and more 'present', but soundstage is also enhanced, more air and sense of space and depth, vocals cleaner, with less grain and sibilance. Bass definition is further increased and a lot less bloat - even a bit too lean for me. I could go on, but these are the obvious things, and this was with almost no burn in with a cold system whereas the last I heard EdgeRouter was fully burned in and the system was warmed up for a week. And then I was able to change from this ... nbn > lots of Cat5e > Synergistic Atmos X Ref > ER1 > 2m fibre > CRS 305 > JCAT Signature > Antipodes EX (server) > Shunyata Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > wifi access point (Mikrotik mAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. to this ... nbn > 50cm Cat5e > FMC > 10m fibre > CRS 305 > 2m fibre > ER1 > Atmos X Ref > Antipodes EX > Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > mAP (WAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. I have underlined the change. That is, now the router is all fibre, and moved ER1 with its good clock and isolation downstream of router which was not possible with EdgeRouter which has only one SFP - previously there was no isolation between the router and EX/Server. The JCAT Signature was the least disruptive to remove for closest to like for like arrangement, so is now out, but it is no slouch. The FMC and 10m of fibre cost <$100 and indirectly substituted a 1m US$1100 JCAT cable that holds its own at that price point. I have the CRS grounded to SR Active Ground Block SE via HD ground cable. Again, cold system and router, but say 30hrs burn in on the CRS 305. The magnitude of improvement is quite stunning. Lots more of the above observations, but the bass is in no way what I would call lean. It really enables appreciation of staccato deep bass notes - it is clear when they start and when they end, almost cut off short to mute for a moment before the next note, no overhang decay blurring between notes. Particularly fun in funk and electric jazz. But that is not to say there is no decay - reverb decay is very extended, bells and chimes seem to ring forever. Very quiet details, even bass, are more apparent. This is a no brainer improvement that would cost $1000s in audio gear to achieve ... the CRS 305 is only $230, only $100 more than EdgeRouter X SFP and is probably one of those bargains in hi end audio, but its not high end audio! https://store.duxtel.com/Mikrotik-Systems/Switches/crs305_1g_4s_in I suspect other SFP+ switches would perform similarly. But note that every port that is not capped lets in noise. Duxtel provide support for 30 days, but I have attached the settings that are working for me (that I worked out over a couple of weeks too'n'fro with Duxtel, and hours of trial and some frustration in there too). If you use the attached settings, let me know if there is anything that is unclear or missing and I will fix it the best I can. Also, Duxtel has a free basic Firewall script that you can open with Notebook to do the few basic necessary edits. I'm not sure if you need to be a customer to download it, you do need to register. it is .txt so cant attach it here. I will be exploring some other simple tweaks, for instance the CPU and speeds can be throttled back. Enjoy CRS 305 Settings as Router.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 You have quite a few changes there, how do you know its due to the mikrotik? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 1 hour ago, dbastin said: I have a no brainer improvement that brings $1000s worth of improvement for just $230! (sorry no steak knives). Wow. I suggest that the contents of the one line post quoted above could be considered in the context of "Don't frighten the horses" Anybody who is exploring the possibility or just starting out on the network journey would despair as to how to implement what you propose. As well, for me I question the validity of your latest experience. It would take considerable time and effort to even get to where you are now. From my own experience I am not sure that what you have done would actually benefit and achieve the out comes that you suggest. I think that you have two optical fibre connections in your preferred option. One optical may be beneficial but two or more no way . Even one is questionable due to the impact of the conversions that happen with optical. I have just tried Sonore to Melco and SOtM to Melco each with good powers supplies. Flat and boring sound. Sonore to Melco okay. A fundamental feature of a quality network outcome is RJ45 copper and switches with serious clocks. There are no short cuts. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, frednork said: You have quite a few changes there, how do you know its due to the mikrotik? The first change was only swapping the Edgerouter X SFP with the CRS 305. The improvement from just this is quite obvious in my view easily worth the cost of CRS 305. I admit the benefits of the 2nd round of changes are less easy to attribute to just the CRS 305 (which is why I set them out) and could also be due to: 1. Moving the ER downstream to be between Router and server 2. Using fibre from router to that ER 3. Replacing lots of UTP (ie. unshielded) Cat 5e with 10m of fibre (the signal in the Cat 5e could be collecting noise enroute and therefore inputting noise into the ER I was using as FMC, whereas fibre does not - I suspect that noise degrades the performance of the ER from a SQ perspective). I had no other way of achieving my objective of fibre as LAN connection to the server. To help identify how much improvement is just due to 3, I could try ... nbn > 50cm Cat5e > FMC > 10m fibre > CRS 305 > JCAT > Antipodes EX > Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > mAP (WAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. Or even ... nbn > 50cm Cat5e > ER1 > 10m fibre > CRS 305 > JCAT > Antipodes EX > Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > mAP (WAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. This 2nd option changes power supply to ER so not comparing apples with apples. BTW, when I exchanged the 50cm Cat5e with 1m AfterDark Cat 7, even then there was a small improvement. Edited January 23, 2022 by dbastin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Assisi said: Wow. I suggest that the contents of the one line post quoted above could be considered in the context of "Don't frighten the horses" Anybody who is exploring the possibility or just starting out on the network journey would despair as to how to implement what you propose. As well, for me I question the validity of your latest experience. It would take considerable time and effort to even get to where you are now. From my own experience I am not sure that what you have done would actually benefit and achieve the out comes that you suggest. I think that you have two optical fibre connections in your preferred option. One optical may be beneficial but two or more no way . Even one is questionable due to the impact of the conversions that happen with optical. I have just tried Sonore to Melco and SOtM to Melco each with good powers supplies. Flat and boring sound. Sonore to Melco okay. A fundamental feature of a quality network outcome is RJ45 copper and switches with serious clocks. There are no short cuts. John This post is deep down in this thread and I would think beginners accept that there will be quite advanced/evolved ideas this deep. Actually the concept is relatively easy to implement in a simpler form than how I have done it. What I am hearing is far from flat and boring, it is much more realistic and enjoyable to me. You can seen I have plenty of copper ethernet cables. I too was skeptical about wifi and fibre. But my experience is very positive with both. I am not advocating short cuts, just alternatives with better outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share Posted January 23, 2022 On 22/09/2020 at 10:20 AM, PCOWandre said: I hear those small 10G switches get bloody hot. If you're not doing 10G and don't need 10G, I wouldn't go there. Now that I have a CRS 305 (SFP+ 10G) I can say CRS 305 is barely warm whereas the EtherRegen feels so hot it will probably burn skin. At least the CRS 305 has a partly vented chassis, although that may allow some noise in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Have had another look at your post after a couple of strong coffee's and have to say I am very confused. I know I have been less than positive about some of your previous comments but please be assured I dont have any personal issue with you. I dont personally know you and if anything I am grateful you have started these parallel threads as it brings together a lot of info that would be strewn across the forum otherwise in a very tricky and difficult to understand area. If you are going to post that this or that does something significant and others have had a different experience then they will respond with some questions so this is where I come from. some things that go through my mind when I read your post are below 13 hours ago, dbastin said: I have a no brainer improvement that brings $1000s worth of improvement for just $230! This implies the effect of the microtik is greater than most/all other individual measures in your ethernet chain as none of those individually cost thousands. Is this what you are really saying? 8 hours ago, dbastin said: The first change was only swapping the Edgerouter X SFP with the CRS 305. The improvement from just this is quite obvious in my view easily worth the cost of CRS 305. Now its value has gone down somewhat and it is worth its cost price. I am not sure i have a good handle on how $230 of improvement in a multi thousand dollar chain of ethernet gear sounds. 14 hours ago, dbastin said: nbn > lots of Cat5e > Synergistic Atmos X Ref > ER1 > 2m fibre > CRS 305 > JCAT Signature > Antipodes EX (server) > Shunyata Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > wifi access point (Mikrotik mAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. 8 hours ago, dbastin said: 3. Replacing lots of UTP (ie. unshielded) Cat 5e with 10m of fibre (the signal in the Cat 5e could be collecting noise enroute and therefore inputting noise into the ER I was using as FMC, whereas fibre does not - I suspect that noise degrades the performance of the ER from a SQ perspective). For me, this is the most likely reason for the big change in SQ. TBH I dont understand why you would continue to buy and place all these devices after such an obvious bottleneck. I would consider starting again with the long run of cat 5 out of the equation and try to simplify to no superfluous devices with what you consider your best bits of gear and then compare and build (if beneficial) from there. 15 hours ago, dbastin said: nbn > 50cm Cat5e > FMC > 10m fibre > CRS 305 > 2m fibre > ER1 > Atmos X Ref > Antipodes EX > Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > mAP (WAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. I really dont see the point in 2 lots of fibre conversions. For me fibre is a necessary evil if you have to have long runs of eth cable. When I say evil , whilst I think it is better than a long run of cat 5 I havent found any definitive improvement compared with a quality short run of eth cable with ok quality switches. in fact I think it may go just very slightly the other way, although am not totally confident on that but more a spidey sense thing. I am not talking about low quality sfp and switches but good quality ones. In the above you have 3 points of complete galvanic isolation (2 fibre runs and wifi) . I havent seen others recommend this approach but perhaps am not looking carefully enough. Just to be clear to others reading, Converters like the cheaper single mode tplink mc220 and their ilk are definitely a negative for me and have sounded dull and muted in my setup previously. 9 hours ago, dbastin said: nbn > 50cm Cat5e > ER1 > 10m fibre > CRS 305 > JCAT > Antipodes EX > Sigma > ER2 > Atmos X Ref > mAP (WAP)> --wifi-- > Devailet pro. To me, the above, or perhaps flipping the ER and microtik would be an ok starting point to understand how your setup responds to changes prior to the EX after the removal of the long cat 5 run. For what its worth, I have found that the config of the setup changes how individual components perform and a component that performs well in one config can be better or worse in another (this includes cables) so it is well worth tracking back and checking things are still performing as they were in a previous setup. In short, I suspect that your previous quite complex setup which may have grown organically is now released from its biggest bottleneck (namely the long run of cat5) and it may be worth treating it as a new setup and systematically add pieces only if they provide a clear improvement I do understand this may be quite deflating after all the effort into getting it this far, but at the same time you may also be missing out on better SQ with less complexity and cash in your pocket for other improvements. Having said all that of course you should not feel put upon to do any of the above as you know your setup better than anyone else and it is a lot of effort and there is something to be said for " if it aint broke...." I would add one more thing. Should you choose to "start again' carefully document (lots of photos are good) exactly how everything is configured,at the moment, where it is plugged in, where it sits, how the cables are placed just in case you should want to go back to exactly what you had. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) @frednork Thanks for engaging in this. I respect your input and am happy to be challenged to interrogate what I have done and claims I make. It is in the spirit of exploring this subject and collectively learning from one another. All my claims are based on other changes etc I have explored in ethernet, grounding, power for relativity. I am careful to not overstate. 3 hours ago, frednork said: This implies the effect of the microtik is greater than most/all other individual measures in your ethernet chain as none of those individually cost thousands. Is this what you are really saying? Yes. But the improvement of the CRS 305 by itself is not worth $1000s, but certainly many times its $230 cost. For instance, similar to the difference between Wireworld Starlight and Platinum Cat 8. However, when I did the 2nd config (nbn > fibre > router > fibre > ER > EX ... ), that seemed to multiply the improvement and is similar to when I went from wired to wireless with Auralic Aries G1 and Devialet as endpoints ... and that was a revelation that outperformed $1000s worth of wired ethernet toys (ERs, Gigafoils, cables, etc) I'd say this is the 2nd biggest improvement I have gained after wifi. And both are step changes, not really incremental. 3 hours ago, frednork said: Now its value has gone down somewhat and it is worth its cost price. I am not sure i have a good handle on how $230 of improvement in a multi thousand dollar chain of ethernet gear sounds. As I said, easily worth its $230 cost price, actually a few times that. $230 worth of change in my set up is a small incremental improvement that is not so obvious and takes some time to be sure it is worthwhile. But it is relative, and my set up reveals it all. 3 hours ago, frednork said: For me, this is the most likely reason for the big change in SQ. TBH I dont understand why you would continue to buy and place all these devices after such an obvious bottleneck. I didn't think it was a bottleneck. It was ... nbn > lots of Cat 5e > wall outlet > US$1k cable > ER - moat - > fibre > router. So 2 x isolation (moat and fibre). Plus an extraordinarily low noise cable. However, I suspect it is making a larger contribution. I have found fibre to be beneficial over short lengths. If you are getting a dull outcome, I have found it due to a shortcoming elsewhere. For instance, if the source is not brimming with detail, then reducing noise can sound dull. 3 hours ago, frednork said: In the above you have 3 points of complete galvanic isolation (2 fibre runs and wifi) . I havent seen others recommend this approach but perhaps am not looking carefully enough. I'm not sure if anyone has been bothered to try it. I am finding isolation between devices beneficial, I assume it reduces noise in each device which affects them in a way isolation does not prevent being passed on. I gather you too have experienced this. I suspect there are different types and sources of noise and each device responds differently. I am not deflated. It is part of the journey. While mine is not as elaborate as @Assisi I do wish to simplify and strip back if possible but it is very hard when the benefits are cumulative. Tonight I will try removing the italics ... nbn > Afterdark Cat 7 > FMC > fibre > CRS 305 > fibre > ER > Atmos X Ref > EX ... And then might even swap the EdgeRouter back in ... And try not to have bias. Edited January 23, 2022 by dbastin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Thanks for accepting my comments with good grace. I agree, it is good for everyone if we can share and explore our experiences and be challenged by others without feeling we are being attacked personally. I think this is why there can be so much conflict on forums as it can feel personal due to the difficulty of interpreting the written word and also poor choices made by the writer. 24 minutes ago, dbastin said: Tonight I will try removing the italics ... nbn > Afterdark Cat 7 > FMC > fibre > CRS 305 > fibre > ER > Atmos X Ref > EX ... Can I ask what the FMC above is? Also, can I request that another cable is used after the nbn router.? I have found AD cables quite variable in their impact. Any one of the other excellent cables you have which you feel would suit would be fine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, frednork said: Thanks for accepting my comments with good grace. I agree, it is good for everyone if we can share and explore our experiences and be challenged by others without feeling we are being attacked personally. I think this is why there can be so much conflict on forums as it can feel personal due to the difficulty of interpreting the written word and also poor choices made by the writer. Can I ask what the FMC above is? Also, can I request that another cable is used after the nbn router.? I have found AD cables quite variable in their impact. Any one of the other excellent cables you have which you feel would suit would be fine. The FMC is this I think, although it was $40ish. https://www.fs.com/au/products/101475.html Interestingly, the SFP+ FMC is $200 more. Another rabbit hole. My FMC is powered by ifi iPower X 5v, which I could sometime substitute with a USB lithium power bank. I used the AD cable only to observe if there was any difference I will try these cables: Generic Cat 6A Elecom Cat 8 SOtM black (it is short, so may not reach) Wireworld Platinum 50cm Wireworld Platinum 1m JCAT Signature Gold I could even do SOtM grey > ISO CAT > black. Or SOtM bkack > ISO CAT > WW Platinum 50cm. My objective will be to observe if the higher grade cables make much difference in that location, rather than evaluate them. Also I have FTTP nbn powered by its PSU on a general house circuit (not dedicared), but I could replace the backup battery (it died) and run on battery as that may help. Edited January 23, 2022 by dbastin typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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