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Ethernet Routers for Audio


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On 16/09/2020 at 7:04 PM, rmpfyf said:

Not least as you're straight into solution mode, which is a dangerous place to be given what needs to be understood here.. Not least as there are very many solutions - how many fibre ports? What type? What support? What are your space requirement? Noise? Etc.. There's quite literally a plethora of solutions out here.

What specification would you suggest for best audio outcome in a typical household?

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12 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

Your signature suggests you're using an Antipodes CX. I'm not familiar with the CX, but I did read some of the earlier Antipodes documentation recently while looking at another thread, and it appears that the core music playing "engine" of the Antipodes is mpd. Given the robust nature of mpd combined with the usually generous specs of the Antipodes series, I'd be surprised if you'd gain anything unless you had an identified fault condition such as noise ingress, gaps or stuttering in playback. If the Antipodes gives you multiple player app options, I'd strongly recommend giving mpd a thorough audition to see how it performs for you. If it permits, try to use NFS to connect your NAS instead of SMB which is more robust.

 

In terms of streaming services such as Tidal, as long as your network is fully functional and you aren't having obvious problems -- like the aforementioned noise ingress or stuttering in playback -- there's probably nothing to be gained. Because of external network factors, streaming apps are designed to hold quite a large buffer so your music doesn't start skipping when someone else in the house starts a youtube video playing. 

 

I'd tend to endorse replacing consumer network kit with good commercial or enterprise equipment, but you need to factor in size and noise, as well as ongoing maintenance. I'd probably have to recommend against replacing your router unless you had the time to learn how to drive the replacement. Switches generally don't get too much in the way of config changes in a home environment, so they're easier to deal with. 

 

If you think you have a problem with decreased throughput and your cable is installed in the walls, pull the wall plate and inspect the terminations. There should be almost zero untwisted wire going to the keystone. When the network requirements are very low (like streaming audio), horrible network packet loss can hide behind TCP and lead to irritation. There have been a lot of cases of bad installs turning up lately, with cabling that only meets cat3 standards due to length of untwisted pairs. 

 

 

My music is streamed thusly:

NBN modem -> basic wifi router -> cat 6 wired network -> Optical converter -> optical fibre -> Music room switch -> AQ cinnamon Ethernet cable  -> Antipodes CX -> Antipodes Ethernet cable -> Mola Mola Makua
 

The CX is a Roon core and the Makua is a Roon ready endpoint.  Other players are not an option for the Makua endpoint currently.  So no MPD.

 

The Ethernet connection from the CX to the Makua is, I believe programmed to be a subnet.  It is certainly the best sounding of the connection options.

 

I have no music room network “issues” as such.  Everything works.  Nonetheless, changing power supplies to the optical converter and the switch change the sound quality in a small way..  Changing the power supply to the router makes no difference.  
 

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On 16/09/2020 at 7:04 PM, rmpfyf said:

If you're going to try to hotrod any component it'd be the switch, not the router, though think of what you can actually change - there's no EMI down a fibre line, only packet timing.

So, I'm not sure my experience with ECTs aligns with this.

 

I have nbn box > Cat 5e > router > Cat 5e > switch > fibre > EtherRegen > Wireworld Platinum > Antipodes EX > JCAT Signature Lan > Gigifoilv4  > Synergistic Research Atmozphete X Ref > endpoint.

 

So on that route there is 2 x fibre isolations, 2 x electronic isolations, 2 x cables that noticeably reduce noise, 5 x ECTs, but 1 ECT in router still gave an improvement in sound quality.  The Gigafoilv4 in particular is not an audio product however my feeling is its impact exceeds the EtherRegen - I'd guess its fibre isolation plus clocking is superior.

 

I'm not seeking an explanation, moreso just observing there are some mysterious things going on.

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15 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

The CX is a Roon core and the Makua is a Roon ready endpoint.  Other players are not an option for the Makua endpoint currently.  So no MPD.

The Makua is a nice preamap. Very nice. I really like the way they don't skimp out on balanced inputs and try to palm off 2 balanced and six RCA as somehow acceptable. 

 

I've got a lot of growing concerns about the extent that Roon has managed to lock-in the market. When they go out of business, there's going to be a lot unhappy people 

 

Anyway, I think you've got it pretty much nailed. Good set up.

 

I have a roaring hatred of media converters, born of seeing them being a failure-prone device in the field that always breaks between midnight and dawn. So I'd say if you can lose that in favour of a switch with the right connectivity, that'd be a reliability winner. 

 

How much of your listening is Tidal vs your own music?

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On 17/09/2020 at 5:04 PM, rmpfyf said:

The people that have nice routers and switches etc are not hearing things. It's quite real. I have no doubt. Seriously.

 

But a few people with tuned networks on very ordinary cabling on some attention to detail and standard routers, with very simplistic operating systems and significantly buffered players are probably getting better sound. 

How can lessons from the 2nd 'few people' be translated into things the majority of us can use and do?

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36 minutes ago, dbastin said:

What specification would you suggest for best audio outcome in a typical household?

No such thing, mate! Well, no such thing as a typical household where the stereo costs more than the average car. Hah.

 

That's why it always has to start with requirements and end with requirements. 

 

19 minutes ago, dbastin said:

I have nbn box > Cat 5e > router > Cat 5e > switch > fibre > EtherRegen > Wireworld Platinum > Antipodes EX > JCAT Signature Lan > Gigifoilv4  > Synergistic Research Atmozphete X Ref > endpoint.

Another happy Antipodes customer. A cynic would suggest that there's now a link between Antipodes and network sensitivity, but we know that isn't so.

 

I'll post the same question as above -- how much is Tidal et vs your own music? I'm not seeing a NAS called out in your path. 

 

If you just feel like changing it up a little, I'd again point to a switch replacement to something managed as bit of general good network housekeeping. 

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20 minutes ago, dbastin said:

But a few people with tuned networks on very ordinary cabling on some attention to detail and standard routers, with very simplistic operating systems and significantly buffered players are probably getting better sound. 

 

20 minutes ago, dbastin said:

How can lessons from the 2nd 'few people' be translated into things the majority of us can use and do?

 

Pretty easily, really. Budget $250-ish and a day or two of fiddlin' time to try the highly buffered mpd-centric solution and give it a try. The software is all free, the hardware requirements are very cheap and if you don't like the outcome you can probably onsell the whole lot on the forums here to someone else looking to give it a go. 

 

I know this is absolutely heresy in the hifi world, but I don't think Roon is the be-all and end-all of network delivered music. It might be the prettiest and have the nicest interface, but the combination of closed protocols, reliance on a company that might vanish overnight (and has apparently in recent times threatened to terminate device support for non-licensed implementations!) makes me wary. What if the double their costs? Triple them? They've already massively increased their one-off price.

 

I've burnt the time with foobar->USB; bubbleupnp with openhome proxies and serviio and bad DLNA implementations; cmus; and a whole lot more. I've found mpd is the least irritating and doesn't attempt to change the music on the way through. When I find something better, I'll be sure to speak up. 

 

mpd anecdote: I patched the dedicated music playing host on my desk system last night. When it came time to reboot, the music stopped, the machine rebooted in about 30 seconds and the music started again, right where it left off. Even patching is less painful!

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7 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

No such thing, mate! Well, no such thing as a typical household where the stereo costs more than the average car. Hah.

 

That's why it always has to start with requirements and end with requirements.

Maybe I have lept to specification too soon.  What requirements would you suggest a typical household with say 4 occupants/users for average use plus the desire for optimal ethernet for audio?

 

Take a stab, even an educated guess.  Get the ball rolling.

 

Let's not get bogged down i  details of defining 'typical' and 'average', there probably oodles of stats to guide that.  See nbn beside for instance.

 

11 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

I'd again point to a switch replacement to something managed as bit of general good network housekeeping

What benefit would a managed switch provide compared to Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch 10x I use?

 

13 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

not seeing a NAS called out in your path

No NAS. Antipodes advice was SSD is better than NAS.  Can you please clarify your question?

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14 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

The Audio hobby certainly is prone to hyperbole.  The problem is, something seems to happening between the router and the DAC (inclusive of those devices) that can influence sound quality.  I’m not saying I know what is happening, but it’s a real thing.  The message here to “networking experts” is can you help us understand where the the network might contribute to changes in sound quality? That way we can all benefit, and make more discerning choices that reward the true engineers over the snakeoilers.  I think @rmpfyf tries really hard to do this.

 

(Warning: meandering rant ahea)

 

Sure, that's because I'm an engineer that for a good while there had life get in the way or more audio purchases. So I got into playing with PCs because it's free asides from the time, and the differences became good. A free kick is enjoyable after all, and it was actually quite fun to have friends over to see if they could hear differences. 

 

I used to have to recompile Linux kernels for my day job. I'm not a computer engineer, but my former field of work requires very long, complex computational work and if you could get another few percent speed out of the kernel you could finish a very long simulation at a more reasonable time, and start the next one before you went to sleep at night.

 

With respect to audio the more and more I played the more you observe how externalities influence playback. Eventually one builds tools that characterise some of the phenomena being heard, and the research goes into adjacencies that affect and interact with the sole thing you care about... playback!

 

I was able to understand a good bit more about the effect of networking on the PC, about power distribution around a PC and how that affects things, and frankly about what we can do in design to make these lesser or non-issues. 

 

I'm resolutely assured by a good friend that a PC CPU is a sh**e thing to make an audiophile box out of without a degree of taming that no one has really attempted. The friend in question is a former chip designer at Intel who had a good chuckle at the linear power supply for the PC -whilst it's directionally correct, said he, he pointed out the (very) significant fast-response switching power supply on a motherboard that takes that good work and makes a good mess of it, and we went into all sorts of science around design tradeoffs. We pulled out a variety of motherboards around the house and I learned a lot about power rail design and the effect on cycle times. It's tricky to design a PSU for minimum noise when most CPU power sources are two phase for low-power CPUs - the power draw has to be very low for this to achieve a 'noticeably cleaner' in terms of timing variance (we now do this with 6W CPUs) or the CPU power rail has to have a decent phase count, a favourable board layout and a large, low-noise and fast power supply hanging off it (hello Taiko). This is one - small - example. (I'm still waiting for that guy to introduce me to a BIOS designer mate of his). The expertise inherent is well beyond me though it's a fascinating discussion.

 

A good portion of sensitivity to upstream crap concerns the player. Not all playback software is the same, far from it. There are some very basic differences, for instance, in how various players deal with file format changes to what you end up with at the end (in my case USB) device. Yes, there are payload differences in playing back FLAC or device-native formats. WAV is not a device-native format but it can offer less computational work. Yes, these can be audible. 

 

Fundamental to it all is that you're using a device dealing in packetised data to generate a reliable, tempered stream with ideally perfect periodicity. Which is impossible. The buffers are there for the packet to work, they don't guarantee perfect periodicity at any rate. Periodicity of any downstream function is as good as the clock source - not the buffer - if the buffers aren't empty. Changing clocks in your PC is surgery so all we have left are software means to cut down the interruptions, and because we have packets and buffers there is no need for uber clocks to ensure the data gets there. I've seen a few people on these forums say 'rah rah buffers exist end of argument' though this is quite incorrect. It's not what they're there for and the effect of solely having a buffer present on jitter is very poorly understood in these arguments. 

 

The best way to fix all this is to buffer the stream downstream of your PC with isolation, mega buffers and mega clocks. This works so long as the device shuttling data to your buffer is not the same device also responsible for getting data from your PC or streamer. Usually they are so there is some sensitivity to upstream periodicity - this is why we have async USB which works best timed to some multiple of the output stream. So yes, there's a cascading effect of sorts, but a downstream buffer working off a relatively-well-tempered PC can do a great deal and it certainly is possible to design well at various stages enough to make differences imperceptible. Judging by comments here it's not commonly done, however.

 

You can of course get a PC to run so fast, so lightweight, so buffered and with such tuned priorities that the necessary audio data is there always in time as limited by the resolution of the PC's timing accuracy. This is what @PCOWandre, myself and others here do. The 'so buffered' and 'tuned priorities' parts here count a lot because - assuming we're not dealing with cabling bringing in any noise enough to play with power-based timing performance - if you can have your CPU having less of a critical look at your network whilst it's playing music, and you've made the task of playing music very easy and under-stressed whilst having configured the system for maximum timing accuracy, then I don't think fancy network hardware (which can only affect this stuff indirectly) can contribute anything beyond negligible. Maybe conducted crap through the port though run optical and you're done with that much.

 

The only off-the-shelf OS I've seen take care of this is Snakeoil OS, and even then it's a user-must-configure thing when last I checked. I guess it would be possible for this community to write some scripts that attempt to automate the process though it's not trivial and some understanding goes a long way.

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

What specification would you suggest for best audio outcome in a typical household?

 

Your experiences would suggest there's a performance sensitivity to conducted noise. Your GigaFOIL is a fancy optical isolator.  I'd wager many people would have a similar performance sensitivity as usually the last leg comes out somewhere in the vicinity of a lot of equipment flippin' some serious current and EMI. If you can't fibre all the way, run to something that cleans whatever up and then a very, very short lead - not more than 0.25m - into the endpoint. UTP unless you're treating the shields properly, Blue Jeans on 10GX would do fine. Ideally it'd be infinitely short though you've also got to deal with whatever the last device gives off.    

 

Get the number of packets down. Subnet it, bigger packets if your network can support it. If not you'll need a smart-ish switch/router. 

 

Get the phase noise of the packets down reasonably. Your Ethernet source may clock so poorly but the maths for lower frequency from a same clock source is well known, an 100MBps is fine for most. 

 

If you've a long shielded cable in play, treat the shield right or run some isolation near to source. 

 

They're the basics. Depending your equipment you may or may not be sensitive to each but they are each directionally correct. 

 

@PCOWandre's response came as I was writing this next bit - I would prefer a big buffer in the playback device - played completely from RAM - tuned affinities (get the NIC, playback thread and output device affinities well separated) and the file converted to the transport's native format prior to playback. That's not WAV, usually it's some PCM variant. If your answer from here is 'Roon' then there's not really much you can do. It is indeed convenient. I'd go $300 upstream if you were a Roon user that were able to invest in I2S/stream reclocking instead.

 

You have my views on AES67 for idealism. I could make an awesome 2-PC solution if that worked, with the latter on playback at silly low power and a Xeon beast upstream doing upsampling and filtering for shiggles (I have no idea why people would pay whatever a Taiko costs for an all-in-one).

 

50 minutes ago, dbastin said:

So, I'm not sure my experience with ECTs aligns with this.

 

The effect of dampening on ICs is well known, and I've no reason to doubt your experiences... though a more elegant solution would deal with performance sensitivities in a way that didn't necessitate your cracking open cases. 

 

Someone want to hot rod something?

 

I've got a bunch of Rakon Stratum 3E OCXOs - they're nicer than the stuff Paul Pang puts in his Netgear items (he does other stuff to though a doing some new clocks is part of it). 

 

They are 25MHz items, which is what you'll usually find in a switch or NIC. If someone wants to hot rod a switch and can build a power circuit enough to replace what's usually in a switch - post the process and results in this thread - I'll happily contribute an OCXO. Might even have a spare Mikrotik here somewhere too to play with (don't get excited, it's a baby without fibre). 

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7 minutes ago, dbastin said:

What benefit would a managed switch provide compared to Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch 10x I use?

You just said 'switch', so I assumed unmanaged. UBNT is probably fine, if it doesn't give you the hassles their switches have given me in the past. 

 

8 minutes ago, dbastin said:

No NAS. Antipodes advice was SSD is better than NAS.  Can you please clarify your question?

Music is all local to the Antipodes? Well, that should keep network problems out of the way. Consider fencing it away from the rest of your network?

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5 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

Music is all local to the Antipodes? Well, that should keep network problems out of the way. Consider fencing it away from the rest of your network?

My music is either Tidal or SSD, presently only Tidal just to interrogate the ethernet, and it sounds better than SSD.  Ethernet connection is needed for control via Roon.

 

Can you explain what you mean by fencing?

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2 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Tidal just to interrogate the ethernet, and it sounds better than SSD

If there's an audible improvement using a streaming service from outside your network vs playing from local storage, there's something very wrong in the land of Antipodes. 

 

3 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Can you explain what you mean by fencing?

An audio network that only contains what is required to play music. No internet access (so no Tidal), no devices but your Antipodes and a single control device. It might be impractical going forward, but given you're already experimenting with the network, it can't hurt to give it a try. 

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1 hour ago, dbastin said:

How can lessons from the 2nd 'few people' be translated into things the majority of us can use and do?

 

What he said 

 

44 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

Pretty easily, really. Budget $250-ish and a day or two of fiddlin' time to try the highly buffered mpd-centric solution and give it a try. The software is all free, the hardware requirements are very cheap and if you don't like the outcome you can probably onsell the whole lot on the forums here to someone else looking to give it a go. 

 

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48 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

If there's an audible improvement using a streaming service from outside your network vs playing from local storage, there's something very wrong in the land of Antipodes. 

For once I have to agree with your perspective.  I do know whether it is very wrong but to me the local should be better.   I am not using Antipodes.  I did once and considered it to be a good product for me at the time.  My Roon ready now is a Weiss DSP 502.  Tidal for me is good via Roon.  However Roon from files on the Naim Uniticore is in front of Tidal.  Better still though, are the same files through the Weiss Man301.  I rarely use that as I like Roon much better than using the Man301 control.  Both Weiss components are connected to the Weiss Medus DAC via XLR.

 

 

John

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1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

there's something very wrong in the land of Antipodes. 

Maybe not, remember I said I removed the SSD and all Sata cables (both data and power)?  And remember I said my system plays for a minute without the router  connected?

 

The Devialet Pro Core Infinity Board "comes with a Quadcore ARM processor clocked at 1GHz, supported by 1GB of RAM-DDR3 memory and 4GB of Flash memory." I imagine the EX has even more memory.

 

So it is possible the improvement is because the SSD and its cables are a source of noise that playing from memory does not suffer from.

1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

a single control device

Can that be a tablet via wifi or bluetooth??

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13 minutes ago, dbastin said:

So it is possible the improvement is because the SSD and its cables are a source of noise that playing from memory does not suffer from.

A device that suffers problems from internal components would by definition have a design problem. Maybe a grounding issue. 

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12 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

A device that suffers problems from internal components would by definition have a design problem.

Are you saying cables dont impact sound quality?  Lets not go there in this thread.

 

I suspect the SSD being connected could be a problem.  I will soon be installing an Audience Hidden Treasure SATA cable, and SOtM filter, but that is another subject. Listening to only streamed music sets a benchmark to compare to when I reinstall the SSD and its new wires.

 

However, it is so, so good it has got me curious about a NAS, or using my old Antipodes Edge for that purpose.

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1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

If we ever get out of lockdown, I might invite myself around for a listen to your system. Where do your music tastes lie?

If you are in lock down I assume that you live in Melbourne Metro area somewhere.  .  You would be most welcome to visit.  I will PM to night you with a follow up

 

John

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4 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Are you saying cables dont impact sound quality?  Lets not go there in this thread.

No, I'm saying that an expensive dedicated device shouldn't need cables to be replaced because they should have got it right in the first place. I'd normally launch on a rant about SATA cables being unlikely to make a difference, but I'll admit server hardware almost always used foil-wrapped cables for internal wiring whereas consumer kit tends to use plastic-covered cables. I haven't cut them down to see if they shield them under the plastic. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

The Makua is a nice preamap. Very nice. I really like the way they don't skimp out on balanced inputs and try to palm off 2 balanced and six RCA as somehow acceptable. 

Best bit of gear I’ve ever owned I think.  The relay switch controlled variable gain output is my geek-out favourite bit.  Simple, elegant, unintrusive.

3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

I've got a lot of growing concerns about the extent that Roon has managed to lock-in the market. When they go out of business, there's going to be a lot unhappy people 

Maybe... They do a lot right or they wouldn’t be where they are.  It a great sounding player, with a slick interface and good support.  The cover art and bios are a digital world replacement for CD inserts and record sleeves.  As a person who enjoys the whole experience of recorded music, Roon is not only compelling, it is essential.  Lifetime subscription here (purchased at the earlier, lower cost).

3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

Anyway, I think you've got it pretty much nailed. Good set up.

Thanks!

3 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

How much of your listening is Tidal vs your own music?

Probably 70% Tidal to 30% own music.

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9 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

I haven't cut them down to see if they shield them under the plastic. 

Consumer-grade stuff generally doesn't (or has a weak shield design) but you can certainly get the shielded stuff, and it doesn't cost the earth.

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Ok @rmpfyf... I read the long post.  My problem, and I think the problem for some (most?) “digital audiophiles”, is we are not quite tech savvy enough to build our own server+streamer system, with software and network setup as you describe.  I have little doubt what you describe would be the ducks nuts, but managing/monitoring/upgrading such a setup is a lot of knowledge to absorb and keep up with.  I put it to you the reason most of us “tweak” is because we digest the smaller increments of knowledge and change to system more easily than going “all-in” as per your description.  And the reason we buy brand name software/server/streamer solutions is because we treat these like audio components with warranties and support.

Edited by Stereophilus
Grammar
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