Dire Straits Mofi 45 rpm vs 2020 8 plus box set

[Get off My lawn]

16 hours ago, scuzzii said:

Great summary @pine weasel. Thank you.

 

Keith has a couple of 1st pressings (uk and aust).

 

Im sure you're well catered for in this dept, but @Hydrology has a commercial record cleaning business that could restore some condition of your 1st pressings.

 

 

Thanks @scuzzi

 

They've all been through the Audiodeske a few times, so are probably as good as they're ever going to be.

 

Like almost any used album of that vintage, they're not perfect - the very occasional pop or tic, and some subtle surface noise. As someone who "grew up" with CDs in the 80s and 90s, I still find that annoying and it can detract from my enjoyment of the music.  That's certainly where the Mofis show their strengths, as the ones I have are beautifully pressed and deathly quiet.

[Get off My lawn]

With regards to the Mofi 45s in general , I agree that getting up to change sides more often is a bit of  a pain, and it does interrupt the flow of the album.

 

With some, I've find it definitely worthwhile for the benefit in sound quality. The Dylan Mofi 45s, for example, sound absolutely superb, and I think the cost of finding NM copies of originals of those albums from the 60s would be prohibitive. People who have done comparisons with the orignals ( such as Fremer) have rated the Mofis as being far superior in sound quality.

 

I'm always hoping that Mofi could work with the U2 and REM back catalogues, as to me, the originals never sounded that great, and so I'd be happy with 45 versions if they could improve the sonics.

 

With the Dire Straits albums, the readily available Maxciuts and slightly harder to find UK first pressings sound very good already, and are 33rpm, so the benefits of the Mofi 45s are not as substantial.

 

I found the Mofis much quieter, but to me, their overall presentation was different rather then better. I love those albums, and so am happy to have multiple versions,  but I think you can get a long way there with less expensive versions than the Mofis because they were done extremely well to start with.

 

 

[metal beat]

Amen.  Just because they are mofi or cut @45rpm does not mean they are necessarily better sounding. 

[vinilink]

2 hours ago, metal beat said:

 If you really want the best sound quality - release all albums as 12 inch singles @ 45rpm - that would be the best.

+1

[Martykt]

1 hour ago, metal beat said:

 

I find it ruins the flow of the album than the getting up and down

Everything is a compromise so if flow of the album is more important to you than outright sq then fair enough.

 

1 hour ago, metal beat said:

 

You would be happy double your real estate of vinyl just to hear it on 45rpm.  How many albums are you doubling

Unfortunately my collection is nowhere near 6000 strong so space requirements is not a big issue for me but to answer your question yes if a particular pressing sounds better then I'm happy for it to take up extra space.

 

Generally speaking I'll just go straight to the 45 over the 33 except in the situation where a particular 33 pressing has been mastered better.

I do have a few albums doubled up though I'm not the type of person to buy every pressing available and if I upgrade I'm happy to sell on my lesser pressings.

 

1 hour ago, metal beat said:

If you really want the best sound quality - release all albums as 12 inch singles @ 45rpm - that would be the best.

Singles @ 45rpm are still a 45rpm track so generally speaking the main advantage of a 12" single 45 is that it allows for an extended mix unless the 45 album happens to have had its tracks squeezed to fit everything in (which is more common among 33s).
I do happen to have 3 Peter Gabriel Classic Records Red Boxes which are all single sided 45 records (like the Led Zep crate) which are the exception done as a no compromise (sq-wise) release.

 

[stevoz]

As @metal beat said, just because they are Mofi or cut @45rpm does not mean they are necessarily better sounding. As some have stated, they just sound 'different' rather than 'better'.

 

I do have the 45rpm version of Peter Gabriel's "So" and it is superb, money well spent.....but if Mofi ever do Supertramp's 'Brother Where You Bound', I would not be interested as my Australian pressing is a truly stunning example of superb SQ.......and it's quiet.

 

Sure, I would be curious but with the above in mind, why would I spend big money on something which may not actually sound better.....just different?

 

I guess it all depends on the standard of the original recording. As @pine weasel alludes....some benefit more than others from the Mofi treatment and therefore would be more desirable than Mofi versions of already excellent originals.

 

This certainly isn't a knock on those who have bought the DS Mofi's but I'll be seeking Aussie Maxicuts of the Dire Straits LP's that I don't already have......superb SQ for far less outlay.

 

 

[cheekyboy]

On 13/09/2020 at 8:07 AM, cheekyboy said:

 

There's definitely something peculiar going on here, because I have the original UK pressings of Love Over Gold, Dire Straits and Communique and several Australian pressings of those too, plus Australian pressings of Making Movies and Brothers In Arms. I have played a couple of these this morning and I can categorically tell you, that SQ wise, the UK pressings don't even come close to the MoFi 45s and, there is definitely nothing wrong with the way Knofler's voice is reproduced on the MoFi 45 pressings. The only issue with these MoFi 45rpm pressings is the amount of dead wax on some sides and the additional energy you have to use to get up and change LP sides, but believe me, it is absolutely worth it!

I wrote the above a few days ago and I haven’t gone back to those 33rpm copies, but they are in excellent condition and I would not say just different, when compared to the MoFi 45rpm reissues, but to me and played on my system here, demonstrably inferior in SQ as well.

 

I didn’t find the vocals markedly different, but the MoFi 45s were more energetic with the bass tighter and more extended as well as better definition of instruments/detail and across a broader sound stage. What was also noticeable was that the MoFi 45s haven’t just tweaked the gain, because I found I was looking for a little more gain on the amp when playing the 45s for the same SPLs as the corresponding 33rpm pressing.

 

There is every chance that my original 33rpm pressings aren’t as good as those that Suresh @pine weasel has, but I would caution in general against the thinking of, ‘amen - the MoFi 45s aren’t better, just different’..............because that is not what I have found.

 

As far as the getting up more frequently and losing the album flow being a PITA as several have suggested, my advice would be to not buy 45rpm albums if that is the case. Personally, I have no problem getting up every 8 - 10 minutes and ultimately that is my choice and should be of no concern to anyone else other than me. I have a reasonably large collection of 45rpm albums and not just this series of Dire Straits reissues and I can assure you they’re all absolutely worth the little more effort that  is required.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by cheekyboy

[tubularbells]

Having amassed many 100's of 12" singles i'm also not adverse to getting up off the chair between pours if it means better SQ.

 

In fact it's been my "audiophile" secret for over a decade collecting albums singles of tracks I love @45rpm knowing they would typically sound better than the same track of the LP version.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Tubularbells
spelling as usual

[artaudio]

18 hours ago, metal beat said:

Amen.  Just because they are mofi or cut @45rpm does not mean they are necessarily better sounding. 

very true, are MOFI really worth the money, I don't think so... 98% of my vinyl has no surface noise other than between tracks dynamic range is no better at 45rpm plus 45rpm vinyl has many other issues.

[cheekyboy]

24 minutes ago, artaudio said:

very true, are MOFI really worth the money, I don't think so... 98% of my vinyl has no surface noise other than between tracks dynamic range is no better at 45rpm plus 45rpm vinyl has many other issues.

Hello artaudio, that is interesting as I’ve followed this thread fairly closely and I can’t specifically recall the claims of reduced surface noise or better dynamic range being attributed to 45rpm pressings, so I’d be very appreciative if you can point me to these claims?

 

Seeing as I own a reasonable amount of music on 45rpm pressings, can you please let me know what these many other issues are that you mention above?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited September 17, 2020 by cheekyboy

[Guest]

19 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

Hello artaudio, that is interesting as I’ve followed this thread fairly closely and I can’t specifically recall the claims of reduced surface noise or better dynamic range being attributed to 45rpm pressings, so I’d be very appreciative if you can point me to these claims?

 

Seeing as I own a reasonable amount of music on 45rpm pressings, can you please let me know what these many other issues are that you mention above?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

He might be alluding to the Steve Hoffman convo - look for Steve's comments over the first 5 pages-ish:

 

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/at-what-point-does-a-system-provide-the-benefit-of-a-45rpm-over-33rpm-vinyl-record.908494/page-2

 

Either way it's a good thread to read; the dude knows his analogue mastering.

[metal beat]

44 minutes ago, Billy Shears said:

He might be alluding to the Steve Hoffman convo - look for Steve's comments over the first 5 pages-ish:

 

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/at-what-point-does-a-system-provide-the-benefit-of-a-45rpm-over-33rpm-vinyl-record.908494/page-2

 

Either way it's a good thread to read; the dude knows his analogue mastering.

From the horses mouth - Steve Hoffman. 

 

I guess mofi are not going to be hiring Steve any time soon for their marketing team .

 

 

So Steve are you saying there should be no difference between the 45RPM vs 331/3 assuming same mastering,etc?

Only in volume. I don't know how else to say it. If you're hearing a big difference between a 33 and 45 of the same thing mastered by the same person after matching volume of both, their mastering moves are different for each version. That is all.

[scuzzii]

3 minutes ago, metal beat said:

From the horses mouth - Steve Hoffman. 

 

I guess mofi are not going to be hiring Steve any time soon for their marketing team .

 

 

So Steve are you saying there should be no difference between the 45RPM vs 331/3 assuming same mastering,etc?

Only in volume. I don't know how else to say it. If you're hearing a big difference between a 33 and 45 of the same thing mastered by the same person after matching volume of both, their mastering moves are different for each version. That is all.

 

 

Shane, i will lend you mine and you can 1st hand hear them on your system and compare them to any other DS releases you may have.

 

 

[cheekyboy]

43 minutes ago, Billy Shears said:

He might be alluding to the Steve Hoffman convo - look for Steve's comments over the first 5 pages-ish:

 

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/at-what-point-does-a-system-provide-the-benefit-of-a-45rpm-over-33rpm-vinyl-record.908494/page-2

 

Either way it's a good thread to read; the dude knows his analogue mastering.

Steve Hoffman does indeed know his stuff and I’ve spent a lot of time on his forum too and I have some recollection of that particular thread, which pretty much has Hoffman supporting the 45rpm format, other than the usual too much getting up to turn the disc and it breaking the flow of the album.

 

@artaudio is saying that 45rpm pressings aren’t any quieter than his LPs, which is certainly possible, but depending on the mastering, they could be. He also says that the 45s don’t have any more dynamic range and again that is true, but not necessarily, depending on how they are mastered. The point I was making is that I couldn’t recall anywhere in this thread that anyone has said that and that is not what Hoffman is saying either, to be accurate.

 

The other thing that artaudio has said, is the 45rpm pressings have many other issues and I for one would like to know what these many other issues are.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[cheekyboy]

20 minutes ago, metal beat said:

From the horses mouth - Steve Hoffman. 

 

I guess mofi are not going to be hiring Steve any time soon for their marketing team .

 

 

So Steve are you saying there should be no difference between the 45RPM vs 331/3 assuming same mastering,etc?

Only in volume. I don't know how else to say it. If you're hearing a big difference between a 33 and 45 of the same thing mastered by the same person after matching volume of both, their mastering moves are different for each version. That is all.

Hello Shane,

 

I’ll put a quote by Steve Hoffman below from that forum thread, but I’m doing this with my iPad and not a PC, so it’s a bit like white man’s magic to me, but here goes.

 

“Sorry, had to run. I'm back. You cannot compare different masterings to judge a 45 vs. LP. It has to be the same song cut by the same person at two different speeds. When I say that the 45 is louder, I'm comparing it to the 33 of the same thing, cut by the same person in the same way. The 45 will be 2 or 3 db louder maybe, but that's it unless they change their mastering style for one speed over the other. I never did that..“

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited September 18, 2020 by cheekyboy

[metal beat]

7 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

Hello Shane,

 

I’ll put a quote by Steve Hoffman below from that forum thread, but I’m doing this with my iPad and not a PC, so it’s a bit like white man’s magic to me, but here goes.

 

“Sorry, had to run. I'm back. You cannot compare different masterings to judge a 45 vs. LP. It has to be the same song cut by the same person at two different speeds. When I say that the 45 is louder, I'm comparing it to the 33 of the same thing, cut by the same person in the same way. The 45 will be 2 or 3 db louder maybe, but that's it unless they change their mastering style for one speed over the other. I never did that..“

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

thanks Keith

 

good to see you agreeing now  

[cheekyboy]

41 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

thanks Keith

 

good to see you agreeing now  

I am? I read he is saying there might be an increase in loudness but he qualifies that and that a difference, one way or the other, is possible if the mastering is done differently between formats. Were the original LP pressings mastered by Krieg Wunderlich and if so, did he vary that mastering from the 33rpm original pressings?

 

I’ve used the term “my ears aren’t just painted on” here before and I know what I’m hearing when I have compared these DS albums. You’re a fair bloke, take up John’s offer of his MoFi pressings for a trial in your system and I know you’ll hear what we’re hearing too, because I’ve seen your ears and they’re not painted on either!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited September 18, 2020 by cheekyboy

[stevoz]

Fascinating conversation!

 

For what it's worth, I took Hoffman's quote as meaning the only difference between two identically mastered 33 and 45rpm LP's is the 45 is a bit louder.....

[cheekyboy]

4 hours ago, stevoz said:

Fascinating conversation!

 

For what it's worth, I took Hoffman's quote as meaning the only difference between two identically mastered 33 and 45rpm LP's is the 45 is a bit louder.....

Yep, fascinating indeed, but I do feel like I'm tiring a little bit.

 

Specifically, I actually found these Dire Straits 45s to be not as loud as their equivalent original 33rpm pressing. I hasten to add that I'm not saying that is the case with all 45rpm pressings. Hoffman does say [see quote again below] that he would expect the 45s to be '2 or 3db louder, if cut by the same person in the same way.'  You'll note too that he starts off by saying that you cannot compare different masterings to judge 45 vs LP.  Are the original DS 33rpm pressings completely different mastering to these latest MoFi 45rpm pressings?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

Quote

“Sorry, had to run. I'm back. You cannot compare different masterings to judge a 45 vs. LP. It has to be the same song cut by the same person at two different speeds. When I say that the 45 is louder, I'm comparing it to the 33 of the same thing, cut by the same person in the same way. The 45 will be 2 or 3 db louder maybe, but that's it unless they change their mastering style for one speed over the other. I never did that..“

 

[stevoz]

5 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

Yep, fascinating indeed, but I do feel like I'm tiring a little bit.

 

Specifically, I actually found these Dire Straits 45s to be not as loud as their equivalent original 33rpm pressing. I hasten to add that I'm not saying that is the case with all 45rpm pressings. Hoffman does say [see quote again below] that he would expect the 45s to be '2 or 3db louder, if cut by the same person in the same way.'  You'll note too that he starts off by saying that you cannot compare different masterings to judge 45 vs LP.  Are the original DS 33rpm pressings completely different mastering to these latest MoFi 45rpm pressings?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

Hang in there Keith!

 

He also says at the end of his quote, "I never did that.", ie: he never mastered 45's and 33's differently.....which means when he compared his dual speed masterings, the only difference he noticed was that the 45's were a bit louder and that neither sound better or even different to the other.

 

You are right to highlight his comment that you can't compare different masterings to judge 45rpm v 33rpm LP's and I think everyone would agree with that assertion but Hoffman is comparing identical masterings at the two speeds.....indicating his comparison is viable as is his conclusion/opinion.

 

In answer to your final question.....the answer would most likely be yes but it's a moot point when one considers the above.

 

Personally, I don't have a strong personal opinion on this subject.....I love my 45rpm "So" (Peter Gabriel) but it annoys me when I have to get up to change sides so quickly and apparently there is a 33rpm version of that album with the same half speed mastering. Would be interesting to do the 'Hoffman' comparison......but I am not rushing out to buy the 33rpm version any time soon!

 

As I said earlier, it's a fascinating conversation.....but maybe have a strong coffee now!

Edited September 19, 2020 by stevoz

[scuzzii]

31 minutes ago, stevoz said:

 

Hang in there Keith!

 

He also says at the end of his quote, "I never did that.", ie: he never mastered 45's and 33's differently.....which means when he compared his dual speed masterings, the only difference he noticed was that the 45's were a bit louder and that neither sound better or even different to the other.

 

You are right to highlight his comment that you can't compare different masterings to judge 45rpm v 33rpm LP's and I think everyone would agree with that assertion but Hoffman is comparing identical masterings at the two speeds.....indicating his comparison is viable as is his conclusion/opinion.

 

In answer to your final question.....the answer would most likely be yes but it's a moot point when one considers the above.

 

Personally, I don't have a strong personal opinion on this subject.....I love my 45rpm "So" (Peter Gabriel) but it annoys me when I have to get up to change sides so quickly and apparently there is a 33rpm version of that album with the same half speed mastering. Would be interesting to do the 'Hoffman' comparison......but I am not rushing out to buy the 33rpm version any time soon!

 

As I said earlier, it's a fascinating conversation.....but maybe have a strong coffee now!

 

 

Stevoz,  I have both the 33rpm and 45rpm half speed masters.  For what its worth, in my opinion, the 45 betters it considerably.  If you would like to try out the 33rpm, send me a PM and we can work something out.

[Get off My lawn]

I'm a little concerned  may have lobbed a grenade with my observations on the Mofi DS 45s!

They certainly were not meant to be a reflection on Mofi pressings in general, or on 45s vs 33s. I have a lot of 45s, ( MoFi, Analogue Productions, etc) and the vast majority do sound better than the standard 33s I compare them to.

I certainly don't regret buying them, and I'm still waiting for the last 2 Mofi DS to arrive ( Love over Gold and Dire Straits)

 

My comments were in regards to the OP's question on the Box set vs the Mofis. 

I felt that the Mofis  definitely sounded better than older box set version.

However, I also preferred  the Aussie Maxicuts to the Box set, and with some limited comparisons to the Mofis, found myself enjoying the Maxicuts more on some tracks. Maybe it's because their presentation is closer to what I was used to, listening to them on CD in the 80s and 90s.

 

I think my point was that I'd buy the max cuts over the box set, and it would be worth comparing them to the Mofis to see if you'd be happy with them at a much lesser cost than the Mofis.

 

I'll spend some more time this weekend listening and see if my thoughts change.

 

Cheers

 

 

[metal beat]

don't sweat it @pine weasel   all big boys here.   

 

 It's a lot more fun and constructive debating differing qualities of analog than the normal analog vs digital  - as we know digital suks 

[stevoz]

26 minutes ago, scuzzii said:

 

 

Stevoz,  I have both the 33rpm and 45rpm half speed masters.  For what its worth, in my opinion, the 45 betters it considerably.  If you would like to try out the 33rpm, send me a PM and we can work something out.

That's cool @scuzzii....all I was doing was trying to accurately decipher cheekyboys Steve Hoffman quote. I have no opinion either way on what is better.....I love my 45rpm 'So' and it sounds better than any 33rpm I've heard of the same album....but then again, it's mastered differently to the 33's I've heard.

 

The same mastering at both speeds is the only fair comparison and you're conclusion on that is pretty strong and I respect it.

Edited September 19, 2020 by stevoz

[stevoz]

18 minutes ago, pine weasel said:

I'm a little concerned  may have lobbed a grenade with my observations on the Mofi DS 45s!

They certainly were not meant to be a reflection on Mofi pressings in general, or on 45s vs 33s. I have a lot of 45s, ( MoFi, Analogue Productions, etc) and the vast majority do sound better than the standard 33s I compare them to.

I certainly don't regret buying them, and I'm still waiting for the last 2 Mofi DS to arrive ( Love over Gold and Dire Straits)

 

My comments were in regards to the OP's question on the Box set vs the Mofis. 

I felt that the Mofis  definitely sounded better than older box set version.

However, I also preferred  the Aussie Maxicuts to the Box set, and with some limited comparisons to the Mofis, found myself enjoying the Maxicuts more on some tracks. Maybe it's because their presentation is closer to what I was used to, listening to them on CD in the 80s and 90s.

 

I think my point was that I'd buy the max cuts over the box set, and it would be worth comparing them to the Mofis to see if you'd be happy with them at a much lesser cost than the Mofis.

 

I'll spend some more time this weekend listening and see if my thoughts change.

 

Cheers

 

 

The comparison I'd be most interested in is the Oz Maxicut of "Love Over Gold' vs the Mofo 45rpm of the same album (when it arrives).