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Denon Reveals 110th Anniversary Range


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I didn't say or suggest that at all @Decky - they were your words.    But, to suggest all they do is shift boxes around, and "collect overheads", (I am sure you mean, "collect margins"), wit

They don’t want to come out and play tonight, they’ve heard a whisper they’re being bullied online!! ?

I don't have those answers Al ... but I do have direct communication with Sound United so I will ask the question. I don't know if I will or won't get a genuine response of course.   Not goi

12 minutes ago, lucmor444 said:

Nice AV receiver but does not reach the heights of the AVP-A1HD.

yep missed opportunity... with an AVC... but no AVP... for 30 years denon every decade brought out a mighty A line with AVP processor and AVC duo... missed this 10 year...by the looks ?

 

I was very fortunate myself to own their last AVP (AVP-A1HD) and also for almost a decade they kept it upto date ... 

 

Can only wish there is an AVP again.....

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10 minutes ago, betty boop said:

Can only wish there is an AVP again.....

Never know what might still be in the works. :)

 

We're now seeing all the releases filtering through that would have been unveiled at Munich this.

COVID delays have pushed releases back and not all products are even announced yet.

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Just now, Marc said:

Never know what might still be in the works. :)

 

We're now seeing all the releases filtering through that would have been unveiled at Munich this.

COVID delays have pushed releases back and not all products are even announced yet.

can only hope so....the 10 year mark actually went by about 2 years ago.... so some of gave up waiting :D  the A series processor has or should i say had HUGE following worldwide. There are many past and current owners still even on this forum. What is amazing is that even to this day theres been nothing else comparable to the last gen AVP. They really dont make em like they used to ....

 

so yeah some of us live in hope....

 

I was also thinking maybe sound united might actually bring it out as a marantz.... 9 series or a classe 900 series or something but nothing of that ilk has come forth...

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The receiver doesn’t look like it has the power and bulk of the the old AVC-A1 series. Could be proven wrong, but it doesn’t look like a truly serious effort. Which does make me think there will be a pre/power above it.

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2 minutes ago, Ray H said:

The receiver doesn’t look like it has the power and bulk of the the old AVC-A1 series. Could be proven wrong, but it doesn’t look like a truly serious effort. Which does make me think there will be a pre/power above it.

its not an A series

 

its an A110 not an A1 ie A1 series...

 

below is the last AVC-A1HD a very different animal that paired the mighty AVP as their A1 series twins :) 

 

imagehandler.ashx?t=sh&id=19730577&s=gl&

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Yeah, that was kind of my point, they should be resurrecting something serious, which would make it much more interesting imo. The AVC-A1 /HD etc had some real grunt in the amp section, that’s never been repeated by any of their subsequent receive’s IMO.

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Another example of the same magical price conversion as Marantz - $3000US -> $8000AU .  Pathetic! 

Edited by Decky
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4 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Yeah, that was kind of my point, they should be resurrecting something serious, which would make it much more interesting imo. The AVC-A1 /HD etc had some real grunt in the amp section, that’s never been repeated by any of their subsequent receive’s IMO.

they did the same cloning at 100 year point...with the A100 series..can google that... same thing here at 110 year point ...

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9 minutes ago, betty boop said:

they did the same cloning at 100 year point...with the A100 series..can google that... same thing here at 110 year point ...

Yeah, I googled it, looks like a shiny 4308 ??

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30 minutes ago, Decky said:

Another example of the same magical price conversion as Marantz - $3000US -> $8000AU .  Pathetic! 

Yep 

 

as Phil Leonardo would say  “whadever happened there?!?”

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Just look at the price difference in AU.  - clearly shipping from Japan to AU must be the problem 9_9

 

AVC-A110 AV Amplifier $5,499 / £4,999 / €5,500

PMA-A110 Integrated Amplifier $3,499 / £3,199 / €3,500

DCD-A110 SACD Player: $2,999 / £2,799 / €3,000

DL-A110 Phono Cartridge: $599 / £499 / €599

 

 

The AVC-A110 ($11,400 RRP),

PMA-A110 ($9,990 RRP),

DCD-A110 ($7,990 RRP) and

DL-A110 ($1,190 RRP)

Edited by metal beat
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4 minutes ago, metal beat said:

Just look at the price difference in AU.  - clearly shipping from Japan to AU must be the problem 9_9

 

AVC-A110 AV Amplifier $5,499 / £4,999 / €5,500

PMA-A110 Integrated Amplifier $3,499 / £3,199 / €3,500

DCD-A110 SACD Player: $2,999 / £2,799 / €3,000

DL-A110 Phono Cartridge: $599 / £499 / €599

 

 

The AVC-A110 ($11,400 RRP),

PMA-A110 ($9,990 RRP),

DCD-A110 ($7,990 RRP) and

DL-A110 ($1,190 RRP)

The dreaded "Australia Tax" ?

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Really - ten grand for the integrated amplifier? And only 80 watts per channel.  (I'm waiting to be shot down for that comment)

 

The Michis are looking better with each new release.

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Geez, when I saw the article, I thought this could be interesting...….10 thousand gorillas!!!!   Being a satisfied owner of the "standard fare" PMA2500 I would've thought for that kind of coin you would get something of similar spec that they sell for the Japanese domestic market. For example maybe 120 watts carried down from their SX11. 

 

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2 hours ago, Antipodean Brad said:

Really - ten grand for the integrated amplifier? And only 80 watts per channel.  (I'm waiting to be shot down for that comment)

 

The Michis are looking better with each new release.

Look for a 2nd hand Marantz PM 11 S3 instead... no DACs but it's a true Reference stereo amp. XLR input too.. 

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In the news section of stereonet AU, there is a product announcement for a new Denon high end integrated PMA-A110, it looks interesting and the sort of component I might test or buy in the future, the article goes on to declare the AUD RRP as $9,999.

 

Assuming this is not an error WTF?

 

The same product is listed on Denon's USA website at $3,500 USD (~$4,800 AUD).

That's a 100% Australia tax.

 

At $4,800 AUD minus standard 20% discount I'm buying at 10k no chance.

 

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3 hours ago, Antipodean Brad said:

After this comment I will stop banging on about the Michi amp's, but the new X3 and X5 are effectively cheaper here than in the U.S.A..  At least until the retailers over there start discounting the prices.

Well I've been using the P5 and S5 pairing with my Dynaudio speakers and it's been fun.

If you are looking for something that's around the price of the Denon plus a bit, you'll be very happy with the Rotel pair. 

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On 08/09/2020 at 8:20 PM, Decky said:

Another example of the same magical price conversion as Marantz - $3000US -> $8000AU .  Pathetic! 

Why do we Audiophiles only get 37 cents to the US Dollar? (Shouldn't it be 72?)..Freight Charges to Yoosay or Straya from Japan should be similar and import duties into America are a bit cheaper than here but not a whole lot. (5% to 10% depending on state) So where are we getting rorted?? 

Edited by bryansamui
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9 hours ago, Antipodean Brad said:

After this comment I will stop banging on about the Michi amp's, but the new X3 and X5 are effectively cheaper here than in the U.S.A..  At least until the retailers over there start discounting the prices.

mate, this proves the point, Australia tax is not a real thing, its just profiteering, the Australian distribution team behind Rotel are working at tradition wholesale/distribution margins (10-20%) whereas the distribution company behind brands like; for example here (Denon) and and another local offender (Cambridge Audio) are working at a retail margin (50%+) hence creation of the Australia tax

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24 minutes ago, bryansamui said:

Why do we Audiophiles only get 37 cents to the US Dollar? (Shouldn't it be 72?)..Freight Charges to Yoosay or Straya from Japan should be similar and import duties into America are a bit cheaper than here but not a whole lot. (5% to 10% depending on state) So where are we getting rorted?? 

I have worked in international shipping (in the wine export industry), sea shipping costs are negligible between Asia and Australia at distribution volumes

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It is specifically obnoxious with Marantz and Denon. There are other "big brands" that are not abusing their market position.   Dynaudio LYD7 studio monitors are cheaper here than in the US. 

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LYD7--dynaudio-lyd-7-7-inch-powered-studio-monitor

 

https://djcity.com.au/product/dynaudio-lyd-7bk-7-inch-nearfield-monitor-black/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwwOz6BRCgARIsAKEG4FV7-Xicj8bl1ydiFwe-xx5iaHqiDTKPa3oMRh_PBw_BOsI3kAKXHpYaApQ3EALw_wcB

 

So, that means it can be done and it is not because of the market size. 

 

My guess was always to look at the importer and their monopolistic position. Most of these companies only do business if they have "exclusivity" - which in itself is anti-competitive behaviour and it should be illegal. 

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1 minute ago, Decky said:

Most of these companies only do business if they have "exclusivity" - which in itself is anti-competitive behaviour and it should be illegal. 

What? How would warranty work? Who would warehouse spare parts? Who would market the brand in Australia? Who would support it and service it? Who would provide training to dealers? Do you think your statement should apply to all industries, not just hi-fi? Fascinated how your suggestion would work in the motor vehicle industry, or others.

 

There's nothing wrong with the distribution model. It's just some distributors don't run as lean as others, or have different pricing structures which I won't deny. That's changing, slowly, and thankfully. Price parity is a "thing" now, and being considered much more importantly by many of the brands / distributors we work with. Obviously the boutique/one person 'distributor' with a small office or working from home will find that much easier than the big company with tens of staff, warehouses and huge overheads.

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So, what are you saying Marc is that we have to feel sorry for them because they run a business that can be described largely as shifting boxes around and collecting overheads.  I am sure I will think of Marantz and Denon next time when I plan my annual charity donation.  

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52 minutes ago, Marc said:

What? How would warranty work? Who would warehouse spare parts? Who would market the brand in Australia? Who would support it and service it? Who would provide training to dealers? Do you think your statement should apply to all industries, not just hi-fi? Fascinated how your suggestion would work in the motor vehicle industry, or others.

 

There's nothing wrong with the distribution model. It's just some distributors don't run as lean as others, or have different pricing structures which I won't deny. That's changing, slowly, and thankfully. Price parity is a "thing" now, and being considered much more importantly by many of the brands / distributors we work with. Obviously the boutique/one person 'distributor' with a small office or working from home will find that much easier than the big company with tens of staff, warehouses and huge overheads.

the problem goes deeper though I feel...

 

yes brands have all the rights to do commemorative models... but what are we getting exactly that is that special with these ? is it the gun metal livery and a new badge ? really what else is there ? and i say this having owned denon for many years and saw a similar effort when they released the a100 series at 100 year mark

 

pricing differential is scary marc

 

PMA-A110 integrated Amplifier ($9,990 RRP) as the news declares.... if dig a bit deeper is actually the Denon PMA-2500NE a sumptuous and gorgeous machine...but it retails rrp of $5999. where is the $4000 more for the A110 integrated going ? 

 

we have also the Anniversary Edition AVC-A110 A/V amplifier ($11,400 RRP) but hey thats just emperor (the $7199 denon 8500h) flagship in new clothes isnt it ?  worth $4.2k more ? 

the new  DCD-A110 SACD player ($7,990 RRP) is also no doubt really the RRP $5799 Denon DCD-2500NE Premium SA-CD / CD player isnt it ? am sure the anniversary edition is a gorgeous piece as the 2500ne is but $2k more ? 

 

I totally understand the cross country disparity ... heck i worked in the us where folks were jealous of our twice as much annual leave. as aussie working there I also got paid more ... so back home i expect to pay more too...

 

but emperors in new clothes ... i dont buy...

 

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I didn't say or suggest that at all @Decky - they were your words. 

 

But, to suggest all they do is shift boxes around, and "collect overheads", (I am sure you mean, "collect margins"), with all respect would only be said by someone who has little understanding of the processes involved in representing and distributing a brand and products in Australia, and is unfair. 

 

Did you know the distributors have to compliance all products sold in Australia. Did you know that the manufacturers don't supply warranty to the local distributors? They have to wear that locally, and often they even have to buy the spare parts to perform such repairs. Then there is insurances alone (because like you, they probably don't want to lose their house when an electrical fault which can and does happen .... you know the rest), then local marketing (shows, dealer events, promotions), who do you think pays for all that? This has been addressed over and over again in previous threads, but my only point is that it is not profiteering, and distributors are not lining their pockets I can assure you. It's just the cost of doing business in Australia is very high - and more and more distributors are aiming for price parity and that's great for all of us.

 

I should point out that some distributors, those smaller ones I referred to earlier, don't do any of the above (compliance, insurance etc) and have very little overheads. Some of what they sell is being done so illegally. Some, but not all, have a bad reputation when it comes to things going wrong too. They don't have the margin to help you out without losing that lean margin they had in the first place.

 

I'll go on record and state that I am 100% in support of price parity, and behind the scenes I have been vocal about this with those involved. I also understand first-hand, that in many and I may go as far as to say most cases, hand on heart, this is not the distributor's fault, but actually the supplier. Buy prices are not the same for all regions and as mentioned, I have seen this with my own eyes.  Just last week I saw a range of products being sold on Amazon cheaper than the local distributor buys it from the same manufacturer that is supplying Amazon directly.

 

The point is, the finger shouldn't be pointed solely at the distributors. That's all. There are definitely some very, very good distributors in our market who represent their brands exceptionally well, while keeping their prices in check with global markets.  There are others whose hands are tied and in an ongoing battle.

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6 minutes ago, betty boop said:

the problem goes deeper though I feel...

 

yes brands have all the rights to do commemorative models... but what are we getting exactly that is that special with these ? is it the gun metal livery and a new badge ? really what else is there ? and i say this having owned denon for many years and saw a similar effort when they released the a100 series at 100 year mark

 

pricing differential is scary marc

 

PMA-A110 integrated Amplifier ($9,990 RRP) as the news declares.... if dig a bit deeper is actually the Denon PMA-2500NE a sumptuous and gorgeous machine...but it retails rrp of $5999. where is the $4000 more for the A110 integrated going ? 

 

we have also the Anniversary Edition AVC-A110 A/V amplifier ($11,400 RRP) but hey thats just emperor (the $7199 denon 8500h) flagship in new clothes isnt it ?  worth $4.2k more ? 

the new  DCD-A110 SACD player ($7,990 RRP) is also no doubt really the RRP $5799 Denon DCD-2500NE Premium SA-CD / CD player isnt it ? am sure the anniversary edition is a gorgeous piece as the 2500ne is but $2k more ? 

 

I totally understand the cross country disparity ... heck i worked in the us where folks were jealous of our twice as much annual leave. as aussie working there I also got paid more ... so back home i expect to pay more too...

 

but emperors in new clothes ... i dont buy...

 

None of my comments are related to Denon and the specific products you highlight. They were in response to a generalised industry comment made by @Decky. Thanks.

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3 minutes ago, Marc said:

None of my comments are related to Denon and the specific products you highlight. They were in response to a generalised industry comment made by @Decky. Thanks.

I understand that myself, and posted from my own perspective to in that regard. However is it possible this disparity could be explored ? has qualifi provided anything to indicate what is so much more special about these editions ? what is it that makes these commemorative editions so many multiple of thousands dollars more ? 

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9 minutes ago, Marc said:

I'll go on record and state that I am 100% in support of price parity, and behind the scenes I have been vocal about this with those involved. I also understand first-hand, that in many and I may go as far as to say most cases, hand on heart, this is not the distributor's fault, but actually the supplier. Buy prices are not the same for all regions and as mentioned, I have seen this with my own eyes.  Just last week I saw a range of products being sold on Amazon cheaper than the local distributor buys it from the same manufacturer that is supplying Amazon directly.

we can't have similar pricing even on the very basis of volume. let alone where we are in the world. not in business real terms. if companies do it massive kudos and i know some who do...but they are no doubt just spreading the costs then across a global base rather than "user pays"

 

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2 minutes ago, betty boop said:

I understand that myself, and posted from my own perspective to in that regard. However is it possible this disparity could be explored ? has qualifi provided anything to indicate what is so much more special about these editions ? what is it that makes these commemorative editions so many multiple of thousands dollars more ? 

I don't have those answers Al ... but I do have direct communication with Sound United so I will ask the question. I don't know if I will or won't get a genuine response of course.

 

Not going to justify anything here but I can present a couple of facts that have been repeated to me frequently by Australian distributors -  I do know that the cost of freight (including sea cargo despite someone above stating the costs have not changed) has had substantial increases this year. I do know that the costs of components coming from the Far East has seen considerable price rises (due to supply and demand, and freight once again), and those workers have been fighting for better conditions and more money (rightfully so) and are also starting to get some wins in that department. So all of that, I speculate, has to be absorbed into the "cost" and being brand new products we're probably starting to see these price rises of components. I may be way off and perhaps some bean counter in an office has simply decided to jack prices up for profits and more returns - ultimately I really only can confirm as much as you can, but I can offer insight from those that deal in that part of the biz.

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1 minute ago, Marc said:

Not going to justify anything here but I can present a couple of facts that have been repeated to me frequently by Australian distributors -  I do know that the cost of freight (including sea cargo despite someone above stating the costs have not changed) has had substantial increases this year. I do know that the costs of components coming from the Far East has seen considerable price rises (due to supply and demand, and freight once again), and those workers have been fighting for better conditions and more money (rightfully so) and are also starting to get some wins in that department. So all of that, I speculate, has to be absorbed into the "cost" and being brand new products we're probably starting to see these price rises of components. I may be way off and perhaps some bean counter in an office has simply decided to jack prices up for profits and more returns - ultimately I really only can confirm as much as you can, but I can offer insight from those that deal in that part of the biz.

I can understand that, I am in contact with folk daily from a wide range of industry across Australia and New Zealand and they are doing it VERY tough. the costs and pressures of doing business and trying to make anything is immense right now. It is why we are seeing so much of everything going up in price. Also working in manufacturing myself for many years including in product development and on business teams bringing things to market,  I can appreciate the incremental cost there is to bring anything to market. Something that has to be recouped somehow.

 

Look forward to what comes forth. 

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I don't deny that in some cases a problem exists, but sometimes it's a slight misconception and that whole bandwagon problem again.

 

Case in point (read the whole thread):

 

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@Marc just a small correction - I never said anything against distributors. They have my full support since they are just as scr...ed as consumers are. Importers often (not always) are not involved in distribution - skim all profit giving very small margins to distributors that take most of the risk. Also, this is not a rule and there are many many different models how audio equipment comes to Australian consumers. I am just advocating price parity nothing else. Do not forget that Denon and Marantz are making sufficient profits in US and EU markets as well and that distribution networks over there are far more complicated with significant costs involved. 

 

What I called anti-competitive is when one tries to buy a piece of equipment from an overseas store and it is refused the service, forcing him to by locally due to a doggy exclusivity deals that local importers have with the manufacturers. That is nothing to do with capitalism and healthy trade practices in today's global market place. Especially when a healthy profit margin is not given to the distributors. That is monopolistic market manipulation in my opinion. 

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35 minutes ago, Decky said:

What I called anti-competitive is when one tries to buy a piece of equipment from an overseas store and it is refused the service, forcing him to by locally due to a doggy exclusivity deals that local importers have with the manufacturers. That is nothing to do with capitalism and healthy trade practices in today's global market place. Especially when a healthy profit margin is not given to the distributors. That is monopolistic market manipulation in my opinion. 

Being refused service because you have purchased a product overseas may be quite a valid and fair practice in my opinion.  I can see how this is seen as monopolistic behaviour, but there's potentially also good reasons for this.  For example there may be subtleties in parts between different countries to pass compliance.  As Marc says sometimes distributors even need to wear the cost of repair of goods under warranty too.

 

If the distributor or an importer has worn the cost of running a parts supply, maintaining a repair network etc., and that cost is covered my margins by products sold locally, why should these same people support somebody who has bypassed the whole system?

 

If you purchase goods from overseas, then either post the product back for repair, or order the parts from the same overseas suppliers.

 

I find this a little bizarre - in the auto industry if somebody buys a grey import and bypasses the dealer network, then caveat emptor.  I can't see why Hi-Fi should be any different.

 

That's not to say that any price gouging is OK either.  Totally agree with an aim of price parity, and I would hope that people vote with their feet so where there is a greedy person somewhere along the distribution chain, they simply look to alternatives of which we seem to have plenty to choose from.

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