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Need help. I want to try and simplify/make better my external hard drives which hold my music files. I want to build something along the lines of a diy version of the NAD M52. Something in a nice case or even repurpose an enclosure from an old dvd/cd player etc. Possibly something that holds at least 4 hard drives. Any advice or point me to any info online would be great. Thx.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-o79KPYbXltt/p_745M52/NAD-Masters-Series-M52.html

NAD M2, M52, et du M50 (CES 2013) - YouTube

 

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Hmm 

 

two options

 

1) buy a NAS like Synology or QNAP.

2) repurpose a pc with multiple disks and use FREENAS or similar software. Problem is that typically PC mother boards don’t have RAID by default.  You could buy a raid card

 

 

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Go the NAS path. You get a lot more than just hardware with a Synology or similar. Comes with an ecosystem of apps and functionality that will make many things in your system a lot easier to do (backups, roon server, file share, plex server etc)

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Apologies for the web links, just easier this way.

 

Try something like one of these: Entry Level 4 bay NAS

 

You can go more expensive units if you want it to do a whole bunch of processing etc.  The biggest difference in the cheaper and more expensive units is the RAM and CPU.

 

Pair it up with 4 x NAS spec HDD's and that config would get you 12 TB of storage; in a RAID set it would be near 9 TB of usable space.

 

It's pretty easy to do yourself. 

 

You can get a decent 1RU NAS but the price jumps considerably for that form factor: 1RU Qnap NAS

 

 

Edited by recur
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9 hours ago, Demondes said:

Problem is that typically PC mother boards don’t have RAID by default

Not required these days.    Modern file systems contain these features in software.

 

Alll you need is a motherboard with enough storage connectors.

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How serious are you about integrity of your data?

 

I think the cheapest Synology that you can have with ECC RAM is DS1618+ . You need to order it as a custom configuration to change the Non-ECC to ECC. The shop could do the RAM swap for you if you didn't want to do it yourself. You may be able to negotiate a good price on the RAM.

 

If you are not concerned about ECC RAM then DS418 or DS420+ would be my recommendation. DS420+ has SSD cache as an option, has a better processor in case you decide to do something like Plex, Roon or anything more than sharing files, and RAM is upgradeable.
 

I would recommend RAID 6 with 4 drives in the DS4xx or more drives if there are more drive bays. If you go for more than 4 drives then I still recommend RAID 6.

 

Edit: For hard drives consider WD Red Pro, WD Ultrastar, or Seagate Ironwolf (wouldn't be my preference but including it for completeness). 

Edited by gwurb
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I'm currently building a NAS myself and am awaiting most of the parts from China bought via Aliexpress., I've sourced an AM4 mainboard locally though. I'll be using UnRAID though had considered FreeNAS/TrueNas though talking to a chap at work convinced me that UnRAID is the way to go.

 

Waiting on the following:

 

$129.71 -AMD Ryzen 7 1700 Pro (used)

$45.80 - Thermalright AXP90 CPU cooler

$156.00 -Asus Prime A32I-K\CSM mainboard

$38.29 -6 Port SATA III card

$128.92 -32GB 2666MHz DDR4 RAM

$496.35 -3x 4TB Toshiba NAS drives

$127.50 -1TB M2 SSD for caching

$167.29 -8x Hotswap NAS case

$130.22 -500W 80Plus Gold PSU

$122.42 -UnRAID Plus license

 

Total cost = $1,542.50

 

Should be able to run docker wrappers and virtual machines on it.  Hoping to run Roon Server and Plex in docker though haven't figured out what else I want to do with it yet.  :)

 

Including the drives, costs less the the bare unit cost for a higher end Synology where you need to factor in additional drives  ;)

Edited by MattyW
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28 minutes ago, Lazz said:

What differences does this solution have compared with the listed recommended Synology ones.

https://www.pccasegear.com/products/15116/hotway-4-bay-raid-usb3-0-esata-enclosure

I've never used that enclosure. As I understand it, from what I looked up on the net in the past, I think of that as an external hard drive enclosure. You need another computer to do all of the drive management and sharing of data.

 

Synology is the computer and drive enclosure in one. No need for another computer. You share the data from the Synology. It has its own operating system and drive management.

 

 

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1 hour ago, MattyW said:

I'm currently building a NAS myself and am awaiting most of the parts from China bought via Aliexpress., I've sourced an AM4 mainboard locally though. I'll be using UnRAID though had considered FreeNAS/TrueNas though talking to a chap at work convinced me that UnRAID is the way to go.

 

Waiting on the following:

 

AMD Ryzen 7 1700 Pro (used)

32GB RAM

3x 4TB Toshiba NAS drives

1TB M2 SSD for caching 

8x Hotswap NAS case

500W 80Plus Gold PSU

 

Should be able to run docker wrappers and virtual machines on it.  Hoping to run Roon Server and Plex in docker though haven't figured out what else I want to do with it yet.  :)

 

Cheaper than the higher end Synology NAS with more grunt  ;)

I've been using FreeNAS for years. I wanted ZFS when I originally started. Totally understand the benefit of a UnRAID/FreeNAS/DIY NAS of some kind vs Synology. I also totally get how Synology has benefits. I'd say for those who are tech savvy and are happy to do the administration then DIY has more flexibility but there is a lot of attractive features to having Synology.

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7 minutes ago, gwurb said:

I've been using FreeNAS for years. I wanted ZFS when I originally started. Totally understand the benefit of a UnRAID/FreeNAS/DIY NAS of some kind vs Synology. I also totally get how Synology has benefits. I'd say for those who are tech savvy and are happy to do the administration then DIY has more flexibility but there is a lot of attractive features to having Synology.

Not for everyone I know,  but I figured unless I mentioned it some may never be aware it's even possible. I only became aware of such solutions recently myself. Once I was aware,  I had to do it.  Besides I've a drive making some funny noises in my existing Synology DS216. The wedding photos are stored on it so it was an easy sell with my wife  :)

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2 hours ago, Lazz said:

Thx gwurb. I have read that a Nas drive is constantly running 24/7 as opposed to a raid drive. Is this true?

From Wiki:

Quote

RAID ("Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks"[1] or "Redundant Array of Independent Disks"[2]) is a data storage virtualization technology that combines multiple physical disk drive components into one or more logical units for the purposes of data redundancy, performance improvement, or both.

Quote

Network-attached storage (NAS) is a file-level (as opposed to block-level storage) computer data storage server connected to a computer network providing data access to a heterogeneous group of clients. NAS is specialized for serving files either by its hardware, software, or configuration. It is often manufactured as a computer appliance – a purpose-built specialized computer.[nb 1] NAS systems are networked appliances that contain one or more storage drives, often arranged into logical, redundant storage containers or RAID.

 

Think of RAID as a way to present the hard drive storage to the system. Think of NAS as a system that shares storage (data) on a network.

 

If you want to turn on and turn off your NAS and its drives more than 0 times a day then you can. Otherwise the drives will be receiving power all the time and will either be spinning or in sleep mode (depending on the system), so yes 24/7 operation. RAID can be as simple as having the drives in your standard desktop pc so the drives would only be on when the pc is on. If you use RAID drive configuration in a NAS then your RAID drives are turned on as much as your NAS is.

 

The so called 'NAS' drives on the market are drives that aim to strike a balance between datacentre and a 'standard' consumer drive. They are more reliable for constant operation in comparison to 'standard' consumer drive but don't have the reliability (and at times lack other features) of datacentre drives. If you leave your NAS on 24/7 or most of the time then NAS drives, or datacentre drives, are a more reliable choice in comparison to 'standard' consumer drives.

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2 hours ago, gwurb said:

I've been using FreeNAS for years. I wanted ZFS when I originally started. 

 

ZFS is the ticket here. What's the point of having all those carefully ripped FLACs if you're not running a filesystem that protects against silent corruption, huh?

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5 hours ago, PCOWandre said:

 

ZFS is the ticket here. What's the point of having all those carefully ripped FLACs if you're not running a filesystem that protects against silent corruption, huh?

The challenge is that running FreeNAS requires a greater level of technical knowledge than running something like Synology.

 

My first recommendation for Synology would be DS1618+ with ECC RAM. I've never used BTRFS but from my limited reading on it it's the closest you can get to ZFS on Synology. Bit rot shouldn't be catastrophic for audio files anyway, but it could be.

 

The thing is, I doubt this thread would exist if op was all over data corruption issues and would be comfortable setting up DIY NAS with FreeNAS. A recommendation for FreeNAS is useless if it won't have a chance of being implemented. Sorry op, this is meant in the spirit of offering a solution that would work for you. If you want to have a go at FreeNAS then please do, it will provide better data integrity in comparison to most other NAS systems.

 

Edit: yes Ubuntu+ZFS is an option but then the NAS management interface of FreeNAS is gone. Thus a need for more knowledge.

Edited by gwurb
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4 hours ago, gwurb said:

The challenge is that running FreeNAS requires a greater level of technical knowledge than running something like Synology.

 

My first recommendation for Synology would be DS1618+ with ECC RAM. I've never used BTRFS but from my limited reading on it it's the closest you can get to ZFS on Synology. Bit rot shouldn't be catastrophic for audio files anyway, but it could be.

 

I think the initial setup of FreeNAS isn't too bad, and one can usually procure enough assistance to get it finished by exchanging a bottle of Lagavulin with someone local. Then it's pretty much "set and forget" unless a hardware failure turns up.

 

As for butterfs, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could kick it up a hill. Wouldn't use it for a disposable workstation filesystem. Uh-uh. Nope. Too high risk.

 

I think the ultimate measure of a platform is recoverability -- if something goes wrong, what are you chances of getting your data back? We all know that we should have proper backups, but we all know that most people won't ever have proper backups and the chances of having proper backups goes down as the volume of data goes up.

 

In the event that your host running FreeNAS blows a motherboard, you can mount that zpool on another host and recover it. Or you can pay someone to mount that zpool on another host and recover it for you and the process is very simple. 

 

That said, that DS1618+ is a good-looking unit.

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1 hour ago, PCOWandre said:

 

I think the initial setup of FreeNAS isn't too bad, and one can usually procure enough assistance to get it finished by exchanging a bottle of Lagavulin with someone local. Then it's pretty much "set and forget" unless a hardware failure turns up.

 

As for butterfs, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could kick it up a hill. Wouldn't use it for a disposable workstation filesystem. Uh-uh. Nope. Too high risk.

 

I think the ultimate measure of a platform is recoverability -- if something goes wrong, what are you chances of getting your data back? We all know that we should have proper backups, but we all know that most people won't ever have proper backups and the chances of having proper backups goes down as the volume of data goes up.

 

In the event that your host running FreeNAS blows a motherboard, you can mount that zpool on another host and recover it. Or you can pay someone to mount that zpool on another host and recover it for you and the process is very simple. 

 

That said, that DS1618+ is a good-looking unit.

I don't disagree with you.

 

The price to make a system for FreeNAS using locally sourced components is not too different to getting the DS1618+ with ECC.

 

Lots of configuration options but just something thrown together quickly:

494380FF-1871-4E44-A57F-3C6F263791A3.thumb.jpeg.f3acbe13ab0383dfb9abca2830ef8900.jpeg
87287B9B-A048-4FB0-9E5F-8C36D091D757.thumb.jpeg.1affbbda495492a83b556c5a25690684.jpeg
 

I use a raid card with IT firmware as I don't have enough ports on my motherboard. It's not necessary for SATA drives with enough ports on the motherboard, in my opinion.

 

Edit: add $250 for Ironwolf M.2 NAS NVME SSD for system drive or get another spinning smaller drive. I use 2 smaller drives mirrored.

Edited by gwurb
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I'm not sure if the "Red Pro" are part of the SMR line of WD, but if they are, no thanks.

 

My two storage heads are Dell T320 servers from fleabay. I think the total cost excluding drives was around $900, for the server with 48GB of ECC memory and adding in quad gigabit ethernet, dual 8GB fibre channel and upgrading the CPU. They're quiet and have remote management. Reflash the included H310 to itmpt firmware, of course. 

 

For the same cost as your Xeon motherboard + CPU option there, I'd recommend the ASRock Rack Ryzen motherboard, which has full remote management and easy to obtain Kingston ECC parts on the qualified ECC list. I built a (diskless) host with those parts this year and I have no complaints at all. $435 motherboard, $279 Ryzen 5 3600. Double the oink and a fair bit cheaper. 

 

Oh, and you want a pair of SSDs for mirrored zil slog. Nobody wants spinning rust write performance these days. 

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6 minutes ago, PCOWandre said:

I'm not sure if the "Red Pro" are part of the SMR line of WD, but if they are, no thanks.

CMR. I don't want to run SMR, and wouldn't recommend it.

 

https://nascompares.com/answer/list-of-wd-cmr-and-smr-hard-drives-hdd/

 

But yep, lots of options on how to configure the system. I am happy with my Microserver Gen8 and HBA card. iLO is great. The whole thing is pretty small. Has been solid for years. I prefer Intel for servers so I wasn't a fan of Gen10 going to AMD so I wouldn't pick it.

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9 minutes ago, gwurb said:

But yep, lots of options on how to configure the system. I am happy with my Microserver Gen8 and HBA card. iLO is great. The whole thing is pretty small. Has been solid for years. I prefer Intel for servers so I wasn't a fan of Gen10 going to AMD so I wouldn't pick it.

I'm beginning to think the days of Intel are getting numbered unless Intel either slashes costs or comes up with a bright idea or two. 

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23 hours ago, gwurb said:

I prefer Intel for servers so I wasn't a fan of Gen10 going to AMD so I wouldn't pick it.

I'm cheap/prefer value and have been running AMD since the P3 era.... With the exception of the Bulldozer based CPU's. I just don't want to pay more for the privilege of buying a brand. If a new company came along with a better price/performance ratio than AMD I'd happily jump ship there too. Brand loyalty is for suckers.

 

Besides,  server grade CPU's are a bit beyond my requirements.  I think the 3 year old 1700 Pro will do me well with its 8 cores and 16 threads. I really only expect to run Roon and Plex in Docker wrappers. Maybe I'll think of some other uses too, maybe not.  :)

Edited by MattyW
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4 minutes ago, MattyW said:

I'm cheap/prefer value and have been running AMD since the P3 era.... With the exception of the Bulldozer based CPU's. I just don't want to pay more for the privilege of buying a brand. If a new company came along with a better price/performance ratio than AMD I'd happily jump ship there too. Brand loyalty is for suckers.

 

Besides,  server grade CPU's are a bit beyond my requirements.  I think the 3 year old 1700 Pro will do me well with its 8 cores and 16 threads. I really only expect to run Roon and Plex in Docker wrappers. Maybe I'll think of some other uses too, maybe not.  :)

Lol. What does brand loyalty have anything to do with Intel preference for servers? 

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  • 4 months later...
On 04/09/2020 at 3:14 AM, gwurb said:

The challenge is that running FreeNAS requires a greater level of technical knowledge than running something like Synology.

 

My first recommendation for Synology would be DS1618+ with ECC RAM. I've never used BTRFS but from my limited reading on it it's the closest you can get to ZFS on Synology. Bit rot shouldn't be catastrophic for audio files anyway, but it could be.

 

The thing is, I doubt this thread would exist if op was all over data corruption issues and would be comfortable setting up DIY NAS with FreeNAS. A recommendation for FreeNAS is useless if it won't have a chance of being implemented. Sorry op, this is meant in the spirit of offering a solution that would work for you. If you want to have a go at FreeNAS then please do, it will provide better data integrity in comparison to most other NAS systems.

 

Edit: yes Ubuntu+ZFS is an option but then the NAS management interface of FreeNAS is gone. Thus a need for more knowledge.

 

Interesting. These folks have an interesting out of the box offer (but shipping might be prohibitive) https://www.truenas.com/truenas-mini/

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