New Theatre Room Build 2020

[OzJustin 58]

Hi all,

 

After persevering with a funny L-shaped theatre room for the last few years, I'm finally moving into a better room for my theatre room. This room has its own quirks but will be much closer to a rectangle and will allow me to have much better speaker placement. It's an existing living room so I'm not looking for anything radical with the design, just some advice on key points to have it work effectively for the future.

 

Key details:

6.9m (length) x 5m (width) x 2.45m (height)

One set of glass french doors on the main viewing wall, one window on the left wall, one door on the right wall, one door in the back wall, two ceiling beams running across the ceiling at the 2.5m and 5m mark with the beams dropping down approx 230mm,  oh and a funny study corner room (which actually works very well for my design which will have a fixed frame screen on castors to slide it out of the way of the french doors).

Will be a light controlled room with black blockout curtains, but will be a light and bright living room when not in theatre use. Will be a combo of movies, tv, music and gaming.

140" 16:9 fixed frame screen with acoustic transparent fabric

One lounge row of seating approx 4 - 4.5m back from the screen, and perhaps some bean bags around the room as extra occassional seating.

Currently 7.1 channel 1080P with a BenQ W1070, but am prepping the room for potentially 7.2.4 down the track with a BenQ W5700 or similar 4K projector. Will probably stay with the 140" 16:9 screen but could transition to a 180" 2.35:1 cinemascope screen down the track if I was feeling really adventurous.

 

Key initial questions:

• For a 4 - 4.5m viewing distance from screen, should I aim for the projector to be approx. 4.5m back from the screen (within BenQ's min and max specs for a 140" (3544 - 4608mm)?
• Will I be right with the lense centre point approx 20cm below the ceiling? (Noting beam no.1 drops down approx 230mm and is well in front of the projector). I propose for the top of screen to be approx 350 - 450mm below the ceiling line when in position.
• If I run 4 x Atmos speakers in the ceiling in future (leaning towards Krix Helix due to their shallow 86mm mounting depth), I assume I will have to run two approx 1.5m in front of my lounge, and then the other two 1.5m behind my lounge to align with Dolby's 90 degree placement? Am I likely to have sound issues with ceiling beam no.2  partially blocking the listening position or due to the speakers not being far from the back wall? 
• Any thoughts on the use of a solid core sliding door for the right side door? Can you get a drop seal for this kind of door to minimise sound leakage?
• I'm working out wiring now. Some cables will use cable hide strips along the skirting boards while I think I'll need 1-2 runs of cable to the ceiling (for the projector and Atmos speakers) and right wall (for the rear right and rear surround right speakers). Should I be adding any specific cables now to future-proof the ceiling inputs for a projector e.g. 10-15m long HDMI, cat5e, power, displayport? What will be the common projector standard in say 3 years time?

 

Pictures to aid discussion: (note my horribly rough hand drawn plan is not at all to scale!)

Random idea for the sliding door:

 

Thanks  

Edited February 21 by OzJustin
Edited title

[betty boop 15,816]

interesting room.... 1st things id sort out is the screen. and I think you are onto something there. looking at that hallway... what I would do is have a runner that goes along inside of that beam... and so the screen when not in use can sit slid up against the wall in the hall way. when in use ... slides out into the room...out of the hall way.. using the beam as the running channel. you might want to have 

 

the speakers could sit permanently on the floor either side of the screen one near wall on left. other next to  the pillar near the hall way.

 

centre speaker perhaps back along front wall presuming plan to use an acoustic transparent screen.

 

this will let you sit at 2.3rd room depth which is great !  

 

also leave you bit of room behind seating position to setup surrounds... Id stick with all surrounds floor standing... will let you have ceiling mounted surrounds for height speakers for 3D audio

[OzJustin 58]

On 23/08/2020 at 9:57 PM, betty boop said:

interesting room.... 1st things id sort out is the screen. and I think you are onto something there. looking at that hallway... what I would do is have a runner that goes along inside of that beam... and so the screen when not in use can sit slid up against the wall in the hall way. when in use ... slides out into the room...out of the hall way.. using the beam as the running channel. you might want to have 

 

the speakers could sit permanently on the floor either side of the screen one near wall on left. other next to  the pillar near the hall way.

 

centre speaker perhaps back along front wall presuming plan to use an acoustic transparent screen.

 

this will let you sit at 2.3rd room depth which is great !  

 

also leave you bit of room behind seating position to setup surrounds... Id stick with all surrounds floor standing... will let you have ceiling mounted surrounds for height speakers for 3D audio

Thanks Betty Boop. I actually plan to slide the projector screen (will be AT) out of the way into the small rectangular study room off to the right. There is plenty of space for it to slide in there and well out of the way of the room traffic and french doors. All speakers are large floorstanders and I've already sorted placement for them. Any thoughts on my key questions, particularly the projector and Atmos placement?  

[betty boop 15,816]

10 minutes ago, OzJustin said:

Thanks Betty Boop. I actually plan to slide the projector screen (will be AT) out of the way into the small rectangular study room off to the right. There is plenty of space for it to slide in there and well out of the way of the room traffic and french doors. All speakers are large floorstanders and I've already sorted placement for them. Any thoughts on my key questions, particularly the projector and Atmos placement?  

Rule of 3rds... place mains in front 1/3rd, seating at 2/3rd room depth -4.6m from front wall

 

Screen I’d place at thx spec for immersion which places 140 16;9 screen, 4.25m forward from main viewing position 

 

Projector place at just outside of closest throw for  screen for max luminance ... check this with screen in place ... use a ladder to place projector to test

 

atmos speakers on ceiling should be flush with beam and I’d angle tweeters to listening position 

 

[OzJustin 58]

22 hours ago, betty boop said:

Rule of 3rds... place mains in front 1/3rd, seating at 2/3rd room depth -4.6m from front wall

 

Screen I’d place at thx spec for immersion which places 140 16;9 screen, 4.25m forward from main viewing position 

 

Projector place at just outside of closest throw for  screen for max luminance ... check this with screen in place ... use a ladder to place projector to test

 

atmos speakers on ceiling should be flush with beam and I’d angle tweeters to listening position 

 

Thanks for that advice. Sounds like I'm pretty close to that with my design. Seating position will be between 4 - 4.5m from screen.

 

That's a good point on the projector placement. I was intending to push it further back towards 4.5m (the max BenQ spec for a 140" screen and very close to the min for a 180" screen (futureproofing!) but you're probably right that I should aim for the shortest throw for max lumens. I can always reposition the projector mount later if I do upgrade. Looks like I'll be roughly 3.6m back from the screen (pending the ladder test).

 

For the Atmos speakers, what do you mean flush with the beam? Not recessed into the beam plasterboard? The main ceiling sits about 23cm above the lowest point of the beam. 

I was intending to place two Atmos speakers recessed into the main ceiling, approx 1.5m in front of the viewing position, and the other two approx 1.5m behind (so they will end up about 50cm off the back wall). See the blue circles in my diagram. I had been considering the Krix Helix as Atmos speakers but I don't believe they have swivel tweeters. I wonder how four of these would go (they only require a 102mm recess, but they're substantially cheaper than the Krix so not sure about the quality but reviews seem favourable):

https://www.selby.com.au/electronics/speakers/in-ceiling-speakers/pair-of-8in-in-ceiling-surround-speakers-carbon-cone-150w-cs809.html 

[betty boop 15,816]

1 minute ago, OzJustin said:

For the Atmos speakers, what do you mean flush with the beam? Not recessed into the beam plasterboard? The main ceiling sits about 23cm above the lowest point of the beam. 

I was intending to place two Atmos speakers recessed into the main ceiling, approx 1.5m in front of the viewing position, and the other two approx 1.5m behind (so they will end up about 50cm off the back wall). See the blue circles in my diagram. I had been considering the Krix Helix as Atmos speakers but I don't believe they have swivel tweeters. I wonder how four of these would go (they only require a 102mm recess, but they're substantially cheaper than the Krix so not sure about the quality but reviews seem favourable):

so they are not hiding behind the beam ! if mounting to the ceiling. you mount to the ceiling. so by the sounds you have 23cm to work with to accomodate the speakers and I would put them in boxes... id go the krix...as long as not stuck in the ceiling and a beam in the way... and following atmos guidelines you will be fine

[OzJustin 58]

Ok I've done some further mocking up of the room and seating position and took a quick look at the Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 overhead speaker setup guide.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.4-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/

 

In my diagram below I had been intending to place four Atmos ceiling speakers in the blue dot locations, however, based on the Atmos guide it looks like I should be moving them out wider to the red dot locations. Assuming I have my forward/backward of seating position placement correct (at approx 1.5m in front and behind the seating position to maintain a 45 degree angle), how wide should I be placing the Atmos speakers? Obviously note my rear and surround speakers are right on the edges so I don't think it would make sense to mount the Atmos speakers right against the back wall. Thoughts?

The photo below with the electrical tape on the ceiling is just a mock up of the Atmos speakers in the blue dot location. The middle piece of tape represents the projector location.

 

[OzJustin 58]

Any thoughts on my Atmos speakers location - red or blue dot location?

Blue seems preferable to me given my floorplan but it doesn’t match up with the Dolby guide.

[betty boop 15,816]

id be erring on blue rather than red. red seems to be going upto boundaries a bit too much. we dont really know where all your other speakers are planed to be so a bit hard to say really...

[niterida 252]

Definitely RED - Dolby specify in line with L&R speakers.

Also blue location means the outside seats are in line/almost outside the blue speakers and this will reduce the L-R panning effects for them.

 

To adhere strictly to Dolby guidelines the line between the L&R height speakers should be same distance behind MLP as ears at MLP are to the ceiling. So the blue and red dots should both be the same distance in front and behind the MLP, regardless of how far apart they are. But the Dolby guidelines are exactly that - just guides and you don't have to follow them exactly - just get as close as you can given room constraints etc.

Edited September 8, 2020 by niterida

[OzJustin 58]

3 hours ago, betty boop said:

id be erring on blue rather than red. red seems to be going upto boundaries a bit too much. we dont really know where all your other speakers are planed to be so a bit hard to say really...

Apologies if my diagram wasn’t clear. My main 7 channel floorstanding speakers are represented by the cross-hatch rectangles in the corners of the room.

1 hour ago, niterida said:

Definitely RED - Dolby specify in line with L&R speakers.

Also blue location means the outside seats are in line/almost outside the blue speakers and this will reduce the L-R panning effects for them.

 

To adhere strictly to Dolby guidelines the line between the L&R height speakers should be same distance behind MLP as ears at MLP are to the ceiling. So the blue and red dots should both be the same distance in front and behind the MLP, regardless of how far apart they are. But the Dolby guidelines are exactly that - just guides and you don't have to follow them exactly - just get as close as you can given room constraints etc.

Thanks for that. That’s my dilemma. My front left and right main speakers will be wider spaced than where my Atmos speakers would be (even the red dot locations). So wider Atmos spacing is more desirable to accentuate the panning effect? I’m a little concerned that the red dot locations will place my Atmos speakers too close to the rear and side walls. The sound could bounce of the walls too much?
If I’m to keep the same distance front to rear from my main listening position for the front and rear Atmos channels then I don’t think I could go 150cm  (which I understand is optimal for a 2.4m high ceiling giving a 45 degree angle to the main listening position). I may be closer to 120cm apart. I gather not a huge impact on sound assuming I go some quality Atmos speakers with good sound dispersion/spread?

[betty boop 15,816]

10 minutes ago, OzJustin said:

Apologies if my diagram wasn’t clear. My main 7 channel floorstanding speakers are represented by the cross-hatch rectangles in the corners of the room.

I dont understand... I though were running an acoustic transparent screen ? so why aren't L&R speaker behind the screen ?

 

I also wouldn't place the atmos height speakers outside of the mains...keep them either in line or inside.

 

at end dont get too hung up on things... as long as thereabouts... I wouldn't sweat on it... this isnt mm precision stuff... but also make sure not way off ! 

 

12 minutes ago, OzJustin said:

I’m a little concerned that the red dot locations will place my Atmos speakers too close to the rear and side walls.

yes dont want them stuck too close near the walls. better as i mentioned in line with mains and or inside of line of them

 

but most importantly get your mains in behind the screen. with an AT screen no reason to have them stuck in corners. will be doing them no favours stuck there...

[OzJustin 58]

On 08/09/2020 at 6:38 PM, betty boop said:

I dont understand... I though were running an acoustic transparent screen ? so why aren't L&R speaker behind the screen ?

 

I also wouldn't place the atmos height speakers outside of the mains...keep them either in line or inside.

 

at end dont get too hung up on things... as long as thereabouts... I wouldn't sweat on it... this isnt mm precision stuff... but also make sure not way off ! 

 

yes dont want them stuck too close near the walls. better as i mentioned in line with mains and or inside of line of them

 

but most importantly get your mains in behind the screen. with an AT screen no reason to have them stuck in corners. will be doing them no favours stuck there...

If you look back at the second photo from my original post you’ll see that my centre speaker will be sitting behing my proposed AT screen at ear level. The left and right fronts will be in the corners of my front stage. I can’t really move them in enough to be located behind the screen as the left channel would be blocking our french door. I still need to keep the room accessible.

 

The only way I could place the speakers behind is by going a wider cinemascope screen. 180” would be perfect and just still slide out of the way (to the right) to grant access to the french doors.

 

Probably a silly question, but could I locate my BenQ W1070 projector far back enough (approx 4.6m back) to produce a 180” scope/2.35:1 image and then use my lense zoom function to manually zoom the image back in to a 140” 16:9 image? The height will be the same in both ratios but I’m not sure: 1) I will have sufficient zoom range to reduce by 40”; and 2) whether I will just end up with a 180” scope image with black bars on the ceiling and floor as the projector natively does 16:9 and then downscales to 2.35:1 aspect?

[OzJustin 58]

Can anyone recommend me some good door drop seals and door perimeter seals?

 

I'm looking to install two solid core doors (2040 x 820 x 40mm) and would like to add seals to block out as much sound as possible. I've only been able to find the Raven RP60 drop seal ($35 at Bunnings) and Kilargo seals (but unsure of which model or where to source). A face mount seal would be much easier than having to cut a groove out of the bottom of the door. To add to the complexity, it seems most seals are max 15mm drop whereas my door drop may be closer to 23mm (unless I run a timber strip under the door to fill some of the gap space).

https://www.raven.com.au/domino/raven/RPCEN.nsf/$defaultview/679629D6786CCB82E9256B6D002AC8A2

https://www.kilargo.com.au/resources/SEALS_CATALOGUE.pdf (184 pages!)

 

For door perimeter seals, the 5m rubber Raven or Moroday seals ($5-11 each at Bunnings) seem like a reasonable option. Recommendations from those who have used?

https://www.raven.com.au/domino/raven/RPCEN.nsf/$defaultview/FA1BD56D4F72A2B269256F2C0000357F

https://www.bunnings.com.au/moroday-5m-white-self-adhesive-special-weatherseal_p4113073 

[niterida 252]

I have used the Raven self adhesive rubber around a few doors - they don't stay stuck for long enough. I would try to find a higher quality option.

For the bottoms you really want Raven RP4.

[OzJustin 58]

On 23/09/2020 at 10:22 PM, niterida said:

I have used the Raven self adhesive rubber around a few doors - they don't stay stuck for long enough. I would try to find a higher quality option.

For the bottoms you really want Raven RP4.

I heard back from Kilargo seals today and they actually suggested the Raven RP92Si and RP99Si. These models don’t seem to be advertised but are a higher quality seal option, and are designed for larger gaps like mine (they do 19-55mm gaps).

I wonder what better door perimeter seals are out there. More googling needed!

[OzJustin 58]

Hi all

 

I wanted to provide an update to my build thread as I’ve made some really good progress the last few months. To say I’m happy with the transformation would be an understatement. This has remained very much a budget build and I’ve had to be creative and retrofit the existing room however possible. It remains a multi-purpose living room that is fully accessible but can be transformed for some movie and music fun without too much effort.

 

Here’s a summary of some of the more significant changes to the room.

 

Fixed frame AT screen on castors:

This was always going to be the sticking point/major constraint for the room as I didn’t have a large wall available for a fixed projector screen. I had been wanting to try an acoustically transparent (AT) screen fabric in my old theatre room but this new room really forced me down this path.

 

I ended up using an existing LP Morgan 140” 16:9 screen frame I had and had a family member weld together two frames that we could attach to the rear of the screen frame with bolts. Then we installed two castors per side to make the frame mobile and easily able to be rolled into position for movies, and then out of the way of our French doors when not in use. The frame is very sturdy and is quite easy to move into position in a few seconds. I’ve also placed two small pieces of gorilla tape on the floor so I know exactly where to position the screen when moving it. It’s a practical yet elegant solution and I’m really happy with the outcome.

 

 

I then paired the screen frame with OzTheatre AcousticVision 4K fabric (thanks Rich! @oztheatre) to allow me to place my centre speaker directly behind the screen at ear level for movies. Being able to place the centre speaker at ear level was a big step up from my old theatre room which had the speaker sitting on the floor below the screen and pointed up at my knees. I instantly noticed the sound difference when I played my first test movie. After some fiddling to get the fabric tight in the screen frame and it was all in place and starting to look like a home theatre.

 

Projector screen fabric available here:
https://www.projectorscreens.com.au/diy-screen-fabric/

 

 

Hiding the mess of cables:

Next up was determining the neatest way to install a bunch of cables in the existing room. Running through the walls was never going to be easy or economical so I opted for some cable management conduit strips that run along your skirting boards. If you take your time to cut the lengths to size and plan your bends, you can actually get them looking pretty neat. In my case, the whole front stage was going to be hidden by curtains anyway, so you really don’t see them there. It’s a little more difficult running them along the ceiling line for projector cables, rear channel speakers etc but they still aren’t that noticeable (and can be painted to match your room if desired).

 

They are available from Bunnings here:
https://www.bunnings.com.au/d-line-30-x-15mm-2m-white-adhesive-cable-management-cover_p4430324
https://www.bunnings.com.au/d-line-10-piece-cable-management-cover-accessory-kit-suitable-for-30-x-15mm-trunking_p4430325

 

In my case, I was installing a 7.1 channel system initially, so I really had to squish the speaker wire tightly into the conduit strips to fit all the runs. It’s going round corners that proved to be the tricky part. Some of my cable runs ran the entire perimeter of the room (more than 15m) so I opted for some high quality 12AWG speaker wire from CableChick here:
https://www.cablechick.com.au/cables/avencore-100m-roll-super-high-end-999-oxygen-free-12-awg-2-core-speaker-cable.html

 

It's amazing how a 100m roll can disappear so quickly!

 

I’m hoping to add four SVS Prime Elevation speakers up high on the walls down the track so time will tell if I can manage to fit these extra speaker cable runs in the existing cable hide strips.

 

 

Blockout curtains:

After the projector screen was sorted, it was time to control the natural light in the room. Fortunately, I already had two pairs of black blockout curtains from my old theatre room but I needed to order a few more sets to adequately block the whole front and partial side stages. The hardest part here was finding suitable fixing points for the curtain rod brackets as 5m wide blockout curtains are quite heavy. I went with thicker 25mm curtain rods and adjustable brackets so I could place the curtains as flush to the wall as possible to minimise light bleed during the day.

 

Here’s what I went with:

https://www.quickfitblindsandcurtains.com.au/sorrento-blockout-eyelet-curtain-black.html
https://www.bunnings.com.au/pillar-products-25-x-25mm-x-3m-curtain-rod-black_p1284014
https://www.bunnings.com.au/windoware-75-95mm-black-metal-adjustable-bracket-2-pack_p1285499

 

The black curtains were probably the most transformative element of the whole room. Once they were up it really felt like the front of the room was a proper stage, particularly with the downlights dimmed. The whole atmosphere of the room changed. It made a decent difference to the performance of the screen too. Initially I only had half of the front stage covered with curtains (see below photos) and there was noticeable light bleed and ghosting through the AT screen onto my white wall. It was quite distracting.

 

 

You can see in the below photo how I’m able to make use of the study area off to the side to store the projector screen so that it doesn’t block the French doors on the left. A very practical outcome. There would be no 140” screen without this!

 

 

Solid core doors and acoustic seals:

With the room progressing well, I began to seek some basic room treatment to suppress the sound to the rest of the house. I was pretty keen to get the sub pumping so a few tweaks were a must!

 

First up was replacing an existing colonial timber and glass interior door with a solid core door. Then I had a friend frame up the hallway area so I could install another solid core door to seal off the theatre room from the rest of the house. This was the most significant change to the room and a little messy. You can see my attempt to contain the gyprock dust from the rest of the theatre room when I was sanding in preparation for paint. I’m glad to say the dust was kept to a minimum.

 

 

With the new doors on and painted, I started investigating door perimeter seals and drop seals. I ended up going with Kilargo perimeter seals and Raven drop seals. The perimeter seals were a pretty straightforward install but I will say it is pretty crucial to stick to the recommended door gap tolerances – 2-3mm in my case. Any less than that and the door will stick and be difficult to open, and the adhesive may pull off the door jamb when the door is opened. My seals tend to peel off a little when I open the door but I haven’t worked out if it’s because my door is 1-2mm too tight or because I should have let the door frame paint cure for longer (I gave it 7 days per the instructions though). I’m yet to install the Raven bottom seals but hopefully they won’t be too difficult to install. I went with a fixed face model which provides a 3-19mm drop. This should be sufficient for my flooring.

 

Here are the models I ordered (thanks to John Barnes Locksmiths):

https://www.kilargo.com.au/ourproducts/is1212/
https://www.raven.com.au/domino/raven/ravenweb.nsf/prod2-v/022 

 

 

Projector mounting:

It was now time to sort my projector positioning and mounting location. I’ve been using my trusty budget BenQ W1070 projector for the last few years with a Brateck ceiling mount. This projector is a baby and very light so was never going to be an issue installing. I did want to future-proof the room for a higher end heavier projector down the track though, so decided to fix a solid piece of wood to the ceiling as a proper mounting point for a Strong or Peerless projector mount. I’m yet to decide whether to paint the wood board as I actually don’t mind the texture and it matches the centre speaker stand which I made out of the leftover wood.

 

 

Subwoofer crawl and room correction:

With most of the room now complete, it was time to determine the best location for my subwoofer – cue the subwoofer crawl! I ended up finding three reasonable positions in the room for my sub but up to this point I’ve gone with the most convenient of the three (with nearby power and a neat location in between my movie shelves). This location will also let me split the bass signal in future should I decide to add a couple of tactile transducers/bass shakers under the lounge down the track.

 

You can see in my photos the three locations that I found to be optimal for bass. Please ignore the timeline for these photos as I know the solid core doors are not installed in these photos. I actually ran the test again at a later date.

 

 

Next up was running Anthem ARC to see how the room performed. I’ve included screenshots to show the room correction applied to each channel. I am a complete beginner when it comes to room treatment so would appreciate any views on whether/how I could improve the room acoustics further.

 

 

Equipment rack:

Finally, I thought I would show you my equipment/gear rack. I bought this storage shelving on castors from Howard’s Storage World a few years back and it has performed admirably to contain all my home theatre equipment. It is a good size to hold most equipment like receivers, power amplifiers, game consoles, network switches etc, allows good ventilation between components and has a very high weight capacity so I could load it up with half a dozen power amps if I wanted to and it wouldn’t buckle. This rack is neatly tucked away in the study area behind the curtains when I have movies playing. The only aspect I haven’t quite figured out yet is how to get an IR signal to the rack as the curtains block the signal unless I leave one edge open and point the remote(s) directly at the rack. I know you can get IR extenders but I’d welcome any thoughts on the best way to send a signal to the rack (primarily for my UHD player).

 

 

That’s all for now - Time to watch some movies! The JB-HiFi Cyber sales came at a very good time. 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by OzJustin
Photo upload

[SandS 108]

Very nice and lots of clever ideas., When crawling around for sub placement are you just using your ears, or a spl meter ,or  mic and rew

[OzJustin 58]

4 hours ago, SandS said:

Very nice and lots of clever ideas., When crawling around for sub placement are you just using your ears, or a spl meter ,or  mic and rew

Purely by ears. I’ve never done the sub crawl method before so it was interesting being able to hear how much difference in bass there was between locations. Some areas had minimal bass while others had lots but it was very muddy. I know where I’ve placed the sub is not one of the traditional corner locations but it seems to work quite well,  at least to my ears. Dual PB2000’s in better locations  are probably a better option down the track, although my wife and neighbours may disagree. 😛 The bass shakers are my compromise position.

[niterida 252]

If you want Tactile Response read this : https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-tactile-response-thread-for-bass.3081780/

 

I have this setup and it is awesome and if you can source good 2nd hand car subs it is cheap too

[OzJustin 58]

2 hours ago, niterida said:

If you want Tactile Response read this : https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-tactile-response-thread-for-bass.3081780/

 

I have this setup and it is awesome and if you can source good 2nd hand car subs it is cheap too

Thanks. Wow that AVS thread has a mountain of info in it. Will take me a while to work through that. I was looking to keep it simple and just add a couple of Aura bass shakers with a Dayton Audio amp under the lounge.

[niterida 252]

9 minutes ago, OzJustin said:

Thanks. Wow that AVS thread has a mountain of info in it. Will take me a while to work through that. I was looking to keep it simple and just add a couple of Aura bass shakers with a Dayton Audio amp under the lounge.

The latest version is a riser platform ith the subs mounted in it facing up, bike tubes arund the subs and a platform floating on the tubes with your seats on the platform - gives the ultimate response but adds a bit of height.

The simpler version is a sheet of ply with the subs mounted facing down, tubes between the platform and the floor and then the seats on top of the platform - much lower and more discreet and for normal people probably good enough.

My own setup is sort of a combination of both but I am going to try the latest version as soon as possible.

[OzJustin 58]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:14 PM, niterida said:

The latest version is a riser platform ith the subs mounted in it facing up, bike tubes arund the subs and a platform floating on the tubes with your seats on the platform - gives the ultimate response but adds a bit of height.

The simpler version is a sheet of ply with the subs mounted facing down, tubes between the platform and the floor and then the seats on top of the platform - much lower and more discreet and for normal people probably good enough.

My own setup is sort of a combination of both but I am going to try the latest version as soon as possible.

That sounds pretty involved but I'm sure will produce some amazing bass. Keep us posted how your setup evolves. I think I'll stick with the simpler bass shaker idea for now - feel it in the chair rather than the rest of the house. My wife doesn't like our single SVS sub cranked up too loud as it is, so I doubt multiple subs in a riser would go down too well.  

[niterida 252]

25 minutes ago, OzJustin said:

That sounds pretty involved but I'm sure will produce some amazing bass. Keep us posted how your setup evolves. I think I'll stick with the simpler bass shaker idea for now - feel it in the chair rather than the rest of the house. My wife doesn't like our single SVS sub cranked up too loud as it is, so I doubt multiple subs in a riser would go down too well.  

With subs in a riser you ONLY feel it in the seating as it produces very little SPL because you build it as an open baffle and a lot of the sound is cancelled out by the front and back waves meeting out of phase.

And if the sound level is still too high, when you turn it down your seating will still move.

And the beauty of using subs is that the movement is DIRECTLY tied to the action AND the sound.

It really is simple to build, especially if you go for the basic version which is just a sheet of ply with drivers mounted upside down and tubes between the ply and the floor (or even just tennis balls at the corners) and the seating on top. See this thread for the basic version : https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-hideaway-theater.2991522/

 

might just be the perfect solution for you.

[OzJustin 58]

On 13/12/2020 at 1:26 PM, niterida said:

With subs in a riser you ONLY feel it in the seating as it produces very little SPL because you build it as an open baffle and a lot of the sound is cancelled out by the front and back waves meeting out of phase.

And if the sound level is still too high, when you turn it down your seating will still move.

And the beauty of using subs is that the movement is DIRECTLY tied to the action AND the sound.

It really is simple to build, especially if you go for the basic version which is just a sheet of ply with drivers mounted upside down and tubes between the ply and the floor (or even just tennis balls at the corners) and the seating on top. See this thread for the basic version : https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-hideaway-theater.2991522/

 

might just be the perfect solution for you.

 

Have you got a build thread on your setup Ken? I'm curious what model subs you sourced locally as I can't see a cheap local supplier of the JBL model that is recommended?

 

So these riser setups really don't transmit the bass through the floor, walls etc into the rest of the house the way a normal sub does?

My SVS sub has the sound isolation feet but you can still very much feel the bass from our ground floor theatre in the upstairs rooms of the house.

[niterida 252]

No build thread or photos of my build unfortunately.

I bought 2nd hand car subs. Just try and get the subs with the highest xmax and mms specs that you can find/afford.

Since the platform is sitting on isolators there is reduced transmission direclty in to the floor structure.

You can use tennis balls, wheel barrow tubes etc instead of proper (expensive) isolators, but whatever you use has to be really really wobbly.

You do get SPL form them but it is reduced and you can turn the sub output down at night and still feel it through the couch.

[hopefullguy 405]

hmm so this replaces bass shakers in effect. can it be retrofitted to a 13" riser i already have? sorry i looked at avs link and lately all this stuff goes over my head.

 

what powers it? my shakers run off an old yammy avr.

[almikel 1,629]

Hi Justin,

 

Just an idea - you could turn your study/alcove into an effective "bass" trap with some absorption where you have the curtain.

 

Not many people have the opportunity to have an absorption trap big enough, with enough air gap behind to operate at low frequencies - your alcove is perfect.

 

You could even mount the absorption on wheels like you've done with the AT screen (nice idea BTW 👍 ).

 

Let's just say you had a big absorption panel mounted on wheels to close off the alcove, say 200mm deep.

 

Polymax XHD would likely be easiest, as it's nearly self supporting, and a light frame may be sufficient.

Better would be ordinary fluffy, but you'd need something to keep it in place, say slats in a 1D BAD diffusion pattern, or black builders plastic on both sides (or both).

 

Here's the modelling for 200mm depth of Polymax HXD vs fluffy closing off that alcove with 1800mm of air gap behind using the porous absorber calculator http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php

Blue is Polymax XHD (gas flow resistivity of approx 12000), green is ordinary fluffy poly insulation (gas flow resistivity of approx 5000)

Adding builders plastic (ie a membrane) on either side of the fluffy option for the mechanical reason of keeping the fluffy in place could improve the bass performance, and not absorb treble...useful if wheeling your trap out of the way to get access to the study, but it remains in your listening room (eg straddling the rear right corner behind the couch.

 

The first thing I thought when looking at your original post was that alcove could make a "proper" bass trap, but how to keep the space usable?...?

...After seeing your inventive mounting of your AT screen...you had the answer...

 

cheers

Mike

[niterida 252]

1 hour ago, hopefullguy said:

hmm so this replaces bass shakers in effect. can it be retrofitted to a 13" riser i already have? sorry i looked at avs link and lately all this stuff goes over my head.

 

what powers it? my shakers run off an old yammy avr.

Yes it will replace your shakers - although the Tactile Repsonse (TR) loonies on AVSForum run these as well as shakers and buttkickers !!

 

You don't need much power (60-80w depending on our drivers) so an AVR may suffice.

 

For an existing riser just mount the drivers facing up (you may have to use spacers if the depth of the driver exceeds the depth of the riser), Get 4 tennis balls and glue them to the corners of the riser, inflate some bicycle tubes to a few psi only (fat tubes work better)  and place them around the drivers (individually or in groups depending on the size of the driver and tubes), put a sheet of ply on the tubes and your seating on top of that.

[almikel 1,629]

 

On 10/12/2020 at 5:14 PM, niterida said:

The latest version is a riser platform with the subs mounted in it facing up, bike tubes around the subs and a platform floating on the tubes with your seats on the platform - gives the ultimate response but adds a bit of height.

The simpler version is a sheet of ply with the subs mounted facing down, tubes between the platform and the floor and then the seats on top of the platform - much lower and more discreet and for normal people probably good enough.

Essentially home made bass shakers - very cool

14 hours ago, OzJustin said:

So these riser setups really don't transmit the bass through the floor, walls etc into the rest of the house the way a normal sub does?

My SVS sub has the sound isolation feet but you can still very much feel the bass from our ground floor theatre in the upstairs rooms of the house.

The drivers are decoupled from the house structure, and like bass shakers are designed to transmit physical/tactile vibrations to the listing seat rather than acoustic sound waves.

 

14 hours ago, OzJustin said:

So these riser setups really don't transmit the bass through the floor, walls etc into the rest of the house the way a normal sub does?

My SVS sub has the sound isolation feet but you can still very much feel the bass from our ground floor theatre in the upstairs rooms of the house.

Your SVS sub is producing bass acoustically - and that bass will transmit widely through the rest of the house.

The solution Ken is discussing transmits vibrations physically to the listening couch to produce a tactile effect.

If the drivers are mounted as open baffle (ie they produce no change to the overall pressure in the room), and the baffle isn't connected to the structure of the house, then there won't be much "acoustic" bass created inside the room, just a tactile vibration at the listening couch.

 

cheers

Mike 

 

[OzJustin 58]

On 23/12/2020 at 1:05 PM, almikel said:

Hi Justin,

 

Just an idea - you could turn your study/alcove into an effective "bass" trap with some absorption where you have the curtain.

 

Not many people have the opportunity to have an absorption trap big enough, with enough air gap behind to operate at low frequencies - your alcove is perfect.

 

You could even mount the absorption on wheels like you've done with the AT screen (nice idea BTW 👍 ).

 

Let's just say you had a big absorption panel mounted on wheels to close off the alcove, say 200mm deep.

 

Polymax XHD would likely be easiest, as it's nearly self supporting, and a light frame may be sufficient.

Better would be ordinary fluffy, but you'd need something to keep it in place, say slats in a 1D BAD diffusion pattern, or black builders plastic on both sides (or both).

 

Here's the modelling for 200mm depth of Polymax HXD vs fluffy closing off that alcove with 1800mm of air gap behind using the porous absorber calculator http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php

Blue is Polymax XHD (gas flow resistivity of approx 12000), green is ordinary fluffy poly insulation (gas flow resistivity of approx 5000)

Adding builders plastic (ie a membrane) on either side of the fluffy option for the mechanical reason of keeping the fluffy in place could improve the bass performance, and not absorb treble...useful if wheeling your trap out of the way to get access to the study, but it remains in your listening room (eg straddling the rear right corner behind the couch.

 

The first thing I thought when looking at your original post was that alcove could make a "proper" bass trap, but how to keep the space usable?...?

...After seeing your inventive mounting of your AT screen...you had the answer...

 

cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

Apologies, I think I overlooked your Dec 2020 post until now. I think your design suggestions are going a little over my head. So you're suggesting I create a moveable false wall to seal the gap in my study alcove and have one or more subs pointing out of the wall into the main listening room? That would be roughly 2m wide x 2.2m tall so sounds a bit beyond my humble multi-purpose space. Forgive my ignorance but what are the benefits of going such a large design? Wouldn't the sub placement be an issue (even with elaborate bass management/EQ)?

[almikel 1,629]

On 07/02/2021 at 9:15 PM, OzJustin said:

So you're suggesting I create a moveable false wall to seal the gap in my study alcove

No requirement to "seal" anything...just build a movable panel of say 200mm deep "fluffy" absorption to place across the alcove the same size as the alcove opening.

"Bass traps" using absorption need to be large with a decent air gap to work at low frequencies - your alcove provides an opportunity for an air gap deep enough for an absorption trap to actually be effective <150Hz or so.

 

On 07/02/2021 at 9:15 PM, OzJustin said:

and have one or more subs pointing out of the wall into the main listening room?

My post above made no reference to sub placement - place them as needed for the smoothest "in room" bass

 

cheers

Mike

[almikel 1,629]

On 07/02/2021 at 9:15 PM, OzJustin said:

Forgive my ignorance but what are the benefits of going such a large design?

for absorption to be effective at low frequencies they need to be large/deep, with the absorption placed where air particle velocity is highest.

Absorption works based on slowing down air particle velocity - which is highest at wavelength/4 from a rigid boundary.

At low frequencies (say <150Hz), wavelengths are long - Velocity = frequency x wavelength, where velocity is the speed of sound (343m/s).

• Traps need to be big, otherwise the long wavelengths just go around them.
• Traps need to be deep to slow the air particles
• Traps need to be placed where air particle velocity is high, which requires large air gaps to place the trap closest to wavelength/4 from a boundary if wanting to absorb lower frequencies

cheers

Mike

[OzJustin 58]

Hi all

 

I wanted to provide a further update on my theatre room. I've recently added some automation (via a universal remote) and made the jump up to a Dolby Atmos setup - now running a 7.1.4 arrangement.

 

First up, I was having issues with my stock remotes being unable to penetrate my blockout curtains to control my receiver, UHD player etc in the rack located behind the curtains. After a bit of research, and some good Xmas sales, I ended up purchasing a Logitech Harmony Campanion. This utilises a universal remote that talks to a wifi based hub which then also sends a signal out via a Logitech blaster to IR etc devices. This allowed me to place the Logitech hub on my front right speaker in the main theatre room and then run the blaster behind the curtain pointed into my study room and gear rack (see photos below). This was a good option to solve my curtain issue. It is a nice setup although I find the Logitech software and having to configure devices based on three 'activities' very restrictive and confusing. Perhaps it's just me being new to the Logitech Harmony range of universal remotes but it took me a good while to get three basic activities configured and I'm still finding the options and button assignments very limiting. I can at least turn on/turn off my projector, receiver and Panasonic UHD player with a single button press. Some of the custom button assignments e.g. particular buttons while in Netflix, controlling certain options in the receiver, and ending an activity without it shutting down devices etc have been troublesome though. I find I'm often using a combo of the Harmony remote and the Anthem iphone app to control most things. I'd give the Harmony Companion a 6-7/10.

 

 

 

 

 

Next up was my step up to Dolby Atmos. This is something I've wanted to do for years so I was pretty excited to push this project along. My biggest issue was working out speakers to suit my space. I was not remotely interested in the ceiling bounce kind, and while I did consider in-ceiling speakers, it wasn't really a legitimate option for me given the lengthy wiring involved and limited ceiling depth. About the only speakers that may have worked (without fabricating unsightly boxes on the ceiling) for my existing build were the Krix Helix which have a very shallow mounting depth. They do not have directional tweeters though so I was a little hesitant with that option. At the top of my list were the SVS Prime Elevation speakers which seemed to have very good reviews and lots of flexibility with mounting them on the wall or ceiling. Unfortunately the AUD isn't great so buying new was going to be expensive and second hand sales of them seemed to be very few and far between.

 

This led me to investigate other local options. I looked at a few of the Krix range like the Phonix 45 but they were a bit expensive for me. Then I started thinking outside the box at the Tropix which are actually marketed as an outdoor speaker but are surprisingly similar in design philosophy to the SVS Prime Elevation. They utilise a 165mm bass driver and 26mm dome tweeter and have a very elegant bracket mounting solution that provides heaps of flexibility for installation. The bracket can be tilted virtually any angle so you can achieve a perfect angle for your listening position. For the price, warranty and supporting an aussie business, I don't think there is much else that can compare for a flexible Atmos setup. Needless to say, I ended up with a set of four of the Krix Tropix speakers and set to work with mounting them on my ceiling pointing directly at my main listening position.

https://www.krix.com.au/tropix/

https://www.krix.com.au/phonix-45/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ended up using two of these 'GripIt 15mm Yellow Plasterboard fixings' per speaker. They are rated to hold 40kg each so it gave me plenty of confidence that they would hold the sub 4kg Krix speakers to the ceiling without them falling on anyone's head. The fixings are highly recommended from my perspective.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/gripit-15mm-yellow-plasterboard-fixing-4-pack_p2260676

 

Then came all the extra wiring which was the most difficult part of the install. I continued to use my cable hide strips but I can tell you now that running 5-6 14AWG speaker wire runs is about the limit in terms of sizing, particularly when dealing with tight 90 degree bends around corners. I managed to make it work and look reasonably neat (not much of an issue when the lights are out). For the furthest away Atmos speakers, I used a thinner cable hide strip as only a single 14AWG wire was running to these.

 

 

 

 

So how does it sound?

Well I was pleasantly surprised by the Krix Tropix speakers. They obviously are never going to match my large floorstanding VAF DC-X35 speakers but they certainly hold their own and produce a nice smooth, detailed sound. Dialogue and instruments sound good although the bass is somewhat lacking given the small plastic enclosure. My SVS sub and large floorstanders can manage that so I'm not particularly worried about the limited bass. The first Dolby Atmos movie I fired up after recalibrating ARC on my Anthem receiver was impressive. My system has gone from a flat 2D sound to a 3D bubble of sound. It really feels like you're sitting 'in' the scene now. It's subtle but certainly a noticeable improvement in immersion, at least for those movies/shows that have a soundtrack in Atmos/DTS:X. After some further reading, I've also discovered that I can utilise all 11 speakers for 5.1 and 7.1 channel content by selecting the 'Dolby Surround' or 'DTS Neural X' setup on my Anthem receiver. From my brief viewing to this point, the Dolby Surround seems to offer a more natural height effect, while the DTS Neural X offers a more punchy blockbuster feel to content. I'm very happy with the upgraded setup.  

 

My next step will be looking for a larger 4 seater 3m wide leather couch (my current is only a 2.5 seater at 1.9m wide) so more of the family/friends can come over to enjoy the system. I have considered moving to two rows of three seats but I think that will be more difficult to calibrate, reduce the useability of the room and be a bit tight around the doorway unless I move to a riser setup with rollers, in a similar vein to what I did with my moveable screen. I could add some recessed subs into a platform under the couch(es) though...  

[Krix Loudspeakers 133]

Thanks for the update @OzJustin, it looks great!

I've found similar results with Dolby Surround and Neural:X.

 

Cheers, Michael