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MSB has released a new firmware Version 18.14 on 19 Jan 21, has anyone tried and noticed significant difference in functions or sound quality?

 

I found LED display interface is a bit smarter on the latest version, there is a new function called Roon Remote:On/Off which could enable the DAC remote to control Roon (wow, I did not know this), great job

 

https://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/reference-support/

https://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/premier-dac-support/

Edited by ikhuong
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36 minutes ago, DrPo said:

Hi I downloaded the 18.1 FW but cannot see the Roon on/off setting anywhere in the menu options. Can you guide me how to find it?

 

thanks in advance 

Are you using Network Renderer V2?  
“roon remote:on” gives option to use MSB remote control to Play/Stop/Next/Pre your playlist

Edited by ikhuong
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I see, no... I am using ProISL... somehow it sounded a bit better than Renderer when I had compared two years ago

 

this was in my "wish list" for Roon, especially not having to turn your smartphone on every time you want to move to the next track or pause 

 

thanks

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ProISL won’t give DAC option to interact back to Roon server . In standard setting, I trust this is the best sounding interface with fiber optic isolation, however, I did some tweak with Network Renderer to have Etherregen with fiber optic in between with positive outcome

 

 

 

60C148EC-79FA-4628-9904-86FD4B2A84E8.thumb.jpeg.cd8596d546cf88070dfae73f84cf618e.jpeg

Edited by ikhuong
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so, if I get you right: you go Ethernet -> Sonore Optical Module -> optical out -> EtherRegen (optical in, Ethernet out)?

 

like you use the EtherRegen not really as a switch but as a converter optical to ethernet, effectively an inverse ProISL but retaining the ability to communicate back (for volume and now for pause / skip to next etc) ? 

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not quite the same, the Etherregen and fiber optic just play a role of media type to stop current leakage or noise from upstream,
 

proISL and Network Renderer use two completely different data protocols.  ProISL/ProUSB uses USB protocol, MSB ProUSB Input sends bitstream (PCM/DSD) as data package over the USB cable >Single mode fiber to ProISL. This gives no option to control Roon Transport( your laptop/Roon server)  as bitstream is only a one-way communication (except some kind of data handshakes, clock synchronisation, etc)

 

the network renderer uses Ethernet protocol and can communicate back to Roon server just like two computers talk each other.

 

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@Kevin: in my case we compared with my dealer (at the store) the Renderer V2 against the ProISL, found ProISL (as MSB in fact claims) a bit better, so I ordered mine with the ProISL, fed directly from my Antipodes EX USB output.

 

Later on I found adding a Sonore UL with LPS  between the EX and the ProISL to provide a good improvement so this is what I use now.

 

But it would be interesting if someone could compare this "optimised" configuration against the non-USB, network based solution with the optical isolation upstream you have described and you are using. 

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I think ProISL is the best sounding interface as per MSB and was reported similarly by Ittaku as well. So you are not alone to spot that out. It is a very smart solution, optical converting is a relative lighter task verus Ethernet data processing. The Network renderer is indeed a mini computer with reasonable powerful processor and it diffinitely generates more noise  at the DaC verus a converter. unless you want to simplify the system and control Roon with remote, I suggest not to switch, i trust a newer Antipodes model like k30/k50 might give you even better results. Although no real experience  yet but I strongly believe the better the transport, the better bitstream to reach dac (with less data lost). Bitstream is a oneway communication  without checksum or data correction, so if something is missing on the way to the DAC, it is a missing one and ProISL won’t be able to fix that.


if something can be called as ideal setup with Network Renderer, i would say Antipodes K40 with Ethernet out directly to MSB Network Renderer. one of SNA is very happy to report Antipodes K40 direct Ethernet out can improve his Aqua LinQ streamer/Aqua Formula DAC significantly . I came to listen his demo with new K40 and the improvement has to be described as huge, that is my next goal to try with MSB, it is hard to demo at home as distributor has no loan gear, so I have to wait for future chance,
 

 

 

 

Edited by ikhuong
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1 hour ago, ikhuong said:

I think ProISL is the best sounding interface as per MSB and was reported similarly by Ittaku as well. So you are not alone to spot that out. It is a very smart solution, optical converting is a relative lighter task verus Ethernet data processing. The Network renderer is indeed a mini computer with reasonable powerful processor and it diffinitely generates more noise  at the DaC verus a converter. unless you want to simplify the system and control Roon with remote, I suggest not to switch, i trust a newer Antipodes model like k30/k50 might give you even better results. Although no real experience  yet but I strongly believe the better the transport, the better bitstream to reach dac (with less data lost). Bitstream is a oneway communication  without checksum or data correction, so if something is missing on the way to the DAC, it is a missing one and ProISL won’t be able to fix that.


if something can be called as ideal setup with Network Renderer, i would say Antipodes K40 with Ethernet out directly to MSB Network Renderer. one of SNA is very happy to report Antipodes K40 direct Ethernet out can improve his Aqua LinQ streamer/Aqua Formula DAC significantly . I came to listen his demo with new K40 and the improvement has to be described as huge, that is my next goal to try with MSB, it is hard to demo at home as distributor has no loan gear, so I have to wait for future chance,
 

 

 

 

Do you want to try the Renderer V2 module?

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1 hour ago, ikhuong said:

Although no real experience  yet but I strongly believe the better the transport, the better bitstream to reach dac (with less data lost). Bitstream is a oneway communication  without checksum or data correction, so if something is missing on the way to the DAC, it is a missing one and ProISL won’t be able to fix that.

Data is never ever ever lost in a digital configuration. You shouldn't even entertain that idea. Digital sound quality is never due to loss of data, only due to timing, waveform, internal/external noise, ground loops etc. etc. etc.

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30 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Data is never ever ever lost in a digital configuration. You shouldn't even entertain that idea. Digital sound quality is never due to loss of data, only due to timing, waveform, internal/external noise, ground loops etc. etc. etc.

do you have documents/ data to prove no loss of data in UsB transfer?


 

from my side understanding, it is not exactly that ,ex below paper

https://www.xmos.ai/download/Fundamentals-of-USB-Audio(1.0).pdf

 

”USB-Audio uses isochronous, interrupt and control transfers. All audio data is transferred over isochronous transfers; interrupt transfers are used to relay infor- mation regarding the availability of audio clocks; control transfers are used used to set volume, request sample rates, etc.”

 

“Isochronous transfers are used to transfer data in real-time between host and device. When an isochronous endpoint is set up by the host, the host allocates a specific amount of bandwidth to the isochronous endpoint, and it regularly performs an IN- or OUT-transfer on that endpoint. For example, the host may OUT 1 KByte of data every 125 us to the device. Since a fixed and limited amount of bandwidth has been allocated, there is no time to resend data if anything goes wrong. The data has a CRC as normal, but if the receiving side detects an error there is no resend mechanism.”

 

 

 Ethernet protocol suffers different set of issues but less serve than usb cables.
 

If you notice, sometime there is a pop/click while playing a song via Roon over Ethernet, play again that  song, the occasional pop/click might not there any more.  So that is a kind of data error I experienced on Roon endpoint, the obvious data errors will create pop, the less serve error will not hearable and only mask the sound quality.

 

and yes there are other factors as well

 

https://youtu.be/u0ebI2GvWMo

 The Youtuber is quite a honest one to tell straight BS but he did not call bs out in the case of Ethernet switch.

Edited by ikhuong
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10 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

EDIT: I'm not sure what protocol they use, but usb is really hard to lose data.

If your  laptop/desktop/server detects ProUSB with a USB Driver, it uses USB-audio protocol then. The fiber things  are just a media coverter and it dooes’t  care what protocol it carries.

https://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/usb/usbdrivers/

 

it is hard but not 100% no lost, hence there is a market for hi-price usb cables and many of buyers by no mean newbies audiophiles.

Edited by ikhuong
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1 minute ago, ikhuong said:

If your  laptop/desktop/server detects ProUSB with a USB Driver, it uses USB-audio protocol then. The fiber things  are just a media coverter and it dooes’t  care what protocol it carries.

https://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/usb/usbdrivers/

 

it is hard but not 100% no lost, hence there is a market for hi-price usb cables and many of buyers by no mean newbies audiophiles.

Even cheap garbage way out of spec cables will not lose data. Really you have to try hard to lose data via usb. It is not data loss that is the cause of quality loss over usb.

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html

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The other thing is audio isn't delivered over USB as a "just in time" delivery.  The payload is being sent at a faster rate than you are rendering it (eg USB2.0 signalling at 480 Mbps) so even if there is an issue in the isochronous transfer, the buffering on the receiving end is refilled faster than you would see a disruption in the underlying data and hear it as a "pop" due to an error.  

 

The only way this is catastrophic to your audio stream is if your cable doesn't meet spec, is too long or you have a faulty USB interface at either end.

 

I really wish people would better understand the communications protocols and their inherent data protection mechanisms before asserting cables will fix non-existent issues. You are really ignoring billions of computers worldwide, transferring terabytes (or more) of data every second without data loss.  IT and networking in general have been optimised at scale and have had the niggles worn out through successive improvements in technology for decades now.  It is now commoditised.

 

The only place in the world where you need a fancy ethernet or USB cable is in Audiophile land. Not where the media is being created (see studios) or distributed (see the cables in the data centres say Spotify uses).

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9 hours ago, ikhuong said:

 there is a market for hi-price usb cables and many of buyers by no mean newbies audiophiles.

You're also asking someone who uses $15 USB cables that meet USB specs instead of fancy audiophile USB cables with his $200K system.

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All have relevant arguments/opinions and make audiophile world interesting. We should leave digital cables/transport debate aside as they are really off topic for main purposes of this thread which mean to share and report experience of MSB DAC setup.
 

if someone thinks they know everything about digital audio, he/she should be a pioneer audio engineer and earn multi-millions  instead of debating by reading SME’s research . There is always room to grow in digital audio, time will tell.

 

come back to original topic, I am keen to hear more sharing user experience sharing on the use of better transport or music server on MSB network renderer v2 and ProISl module.

 

Thanks @DrPo to share user experiment on a good transport that improves sound of ProISL

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ikhuong
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3 minutes ago, ikhuong said:

All have relevant arguments/opinions and make audiophile world interesting. We should leave digital cables/transport debate aside as they are really off topic for main purposes of this thread which mean to share and report experience of MSB DAC setup.

Sure, that's why I just declared what I do with usb cables; I was not proscriptive about why and what effects usb cables have. That said, I can say with certainty that data integrity is not the problem (Full disclosure: I've coded many usb drivers, but not in audio.)

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15 hours ago, DrPo said:

Very interesting thanks. Indeed an Antipodes upgrade is something I have been thinking about as well but not enough shared experiences with the new series 

https://www.audioshark.org/msb-205/msb-pro-usb-16054.html

Or Taiko Extreme, lol.

 

Read the lengthy thread, my take away point is MSB ProISL USB to Taiko Extreme with local music on PCIe SSD and  Gobel LaCord USB might push unprecedented performance.

Not sure anyone is willing to go this far to experiment and re-test those claims.

 

I think Antipodes K50 is a real contender for ProISL and I am keen to hear from Greg in the future, lol

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Quote

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           Item(Global): Logical Minimum, data= [ 0x00 ] 0
           Item(Global): Logical Maximum, data= [ 0xff 0x00 ] 255
           Item(Global): Report Size, data= [ 0x08 ] 8
           Item(Global): Report Count, data= [ 0x40 ] 64
           Item(Local ? Usage, data= [ 0x01 ] 1
                           (null)
           Item(Main ? Feature, data= [ 0x01 ] 1
                           Constant Array Absolute No_Wrap Linear
                           Preferred_State No_Null_Position Non_Volatile Bitfield
           Item(Main ? End Collection, data=none
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x83  EP 3 IN
       bmAttributes            3
         Transfer Type            Interrupt
         Synch Type               None
         Usage Type               Data
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0040  1x 64 bytes
       bInterval               8
 Configuration Descriptor:
   bLength                 9
   bDescriptorType         2
   wTotalLength       0x0123
   bNumInterfaces          4
   bConfigurationValue     1
   iConfiguration          0  
   bmAttributes         0x80
     (Bus Powered)
   MaxPower              500mA
   Interface Association:
     bLength                 8
     bDescriptorType        11
     bFirstInterface         0
     bInterfaceCount         2
     bFunctionClass          1 Audio
     bFunctionSubClass       0  
     bFunctionProtocol      32  
     iFunction               0  
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        0
     bAlternateSetting       0
     bNumEndpoints           0
     bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
     bInterfaceSubClass      1 Control Device
     bInterfaceProtocol     32  
     iInterface              3 ProUSB V2.0
     AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 9
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      1 (HEADER)
       bcdADC               2.00
       bCategory               8
       wTotalLength       0x0036
       bmControls           0x00
     AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 8
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype     10 (CLOCK_SOURCE)
       bClockID               41
       bmAttributes            3 Internal programmable clock  
       bmControls           0x07
         Clock Frequency Control (read/write)
         Clock Validity Control (read-only)
       bAssocTerminal          0
       iClockSource            9 MSB Technology Internal Clock
     AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 8
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype     11 (CLOCK_SELECTOR)
       bClockID               40
       bNrInPins               1
       baCSourceID(0)         41
       bmControls           0x03
         Clock Selector Control (read/write)
       iClockSelector          8 MSB Technology Clock Selector
     AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                17
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
       bTerminalID             2
       wTerminalType      0x0101 USB Streaming
       bAssocTerminal          0
       bCSourceID             40
       bNrChannels             2
       bmChannelConfig    0x00000000
       iChannelNames          11 Analogue 1
       bmControls         0x0000
       iTerminal               6 ProUSB V2.0  
     AudioControl Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                12
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
       bTerminalID            20
       wTerminalType      0x0301 Speaker
       bAssocTerminal          0
       bSourceID               2
       bCSourceID             40
       bmControls         0x0000
       iTerminal               0  
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        1
     bAlternateSetting       0
     bNumEndpoints           0
     bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
     bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
     bInterfaceProtocol     32  
     iInterface              4 ProUSB V2.0  
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        1
     bAlternateSetting       1
     bNumEndpoints           2
     bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
     bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
     bInterfaceProtocol     32  
     iInterface              4 ProUSB V2.0  
     AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                16
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
       bTerminalLink           2
       bmControls           0x00
       bFormatType             1
       bmFormats          0x00000001
         PCM
       bNrChannels             2
       bmChannelConfig    0x00000000
       iChannelNames          11 Analogue 1
     AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 6
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
       bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
       bSubslotSize            4
       bBitResolution         24
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x01  EP 1 OUT
       bmAttributes            5
         Transfer Type            Isochronous
         Synch Type               Asynchronous
         Usage Type               Data
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0308  1x 776 bytes
       bInterval               1
       AudioStreaming Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 8
         bDescriptorType        37
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
         bmAttributes         0x00
         bmControls           0x00
         bLockDelayUnits         2 Decoded PCM samples
         wLockDelay         0x0008
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
       bmAttributes           17
         Transfer Type            Isochronous
         Synch Type               None
         Usage Type               Feedback
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0004  1x 4 bytes
       bInterval               4
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        1
     bAlternateSetting       2
     bNumEndpoints           2
     bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
     bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
     bInterfaceProtocol     32  
     iInterface              4 ProUSB V2.0  
     AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                16
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
       bTerminalLink           2
       bmControls           0x00
       bFormatType             1
       bmFormats          0x00000001
         PCM
       bNrChannels             2
       bmChannelConfig    0x00000000
       iChannelNames          11 Analogue 1
     AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 6
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
       bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
       bSubslotSize            2
       bBitResolution         16
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x01  EP 1 OUT
       bmAttributes            5
         Transfer Type            Isochronous
         Synch Type               Asynchronous
         Usage Type               Data
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0184  1x 388 bytes
       bInterval               1
       AudioStreaming Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 8
         bDescriptorType        37
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
         bmAttributes         0x00
         bmControls           0x00
         bLockDelayUnits         2 Decoded PCM samples
         wLockDelay         0x0008
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
       bmAttributes           17
         Transfer Type            Isochronous
         Synch Type               None
         Usage Type               Feedback
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0004  1x 4 bytes
       bInterval               4
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        1
     bAlternateSetting       3
     bNumEndpoints           2
     bInterfaceClass         1 Audio
     bInterfaceSubClass      2 Streaming
     bInterfaceProtocol     32  
     iInterface              4 ProUSB V2.0  
     AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                16
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      1 (AS_GENERAL)
       bTerminalLink           2
       bmControls           0x00
       bFormatType             1
       bmFormats          0x80000000
       bNrChannels             2
       bmChannelConfig    0x00000000
       iChannelNames          11 Analogue 1
     AudioStreaming Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                 6
       bDescriptorType        36
       bDescriptorSubtype      2 (FORMAT_TYPE)
       bFormatType             1 (FORMAT_TYPE_I)
       bSubslotSize            4
       bBitResolution         32
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x01  EP 1 OUT
       bmAttributes            5
         Transfer Type            Isochronous
         Synch Type               Asynchronous
         Usage Type               Data
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0308  1x 776 bytes
       bInterval               1
       AudioStreaming Endpoint Descriptor:
         bLength                 8
         bDescriptorType        37
         bDescriptorSubtype      1 (EP_GENERAL)
         bmAttributes         0x00
         bmControls           0x00
         bLockDelayUnits         2 Decoded PCM samples
         wLockDelay         0x0008
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
       bmAttributes           17
         Transfer Type            Isochronous
         Synch Type               None
         Usage Type               Feedback
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0004  1x 4 bytes
       bInterval               4
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        2
     bAlternateSetting       0
     bNumEndpoints           0
     bInterfaceClass       254 Application Specific Interface
     bInterfaceSubClass      1 Device Firmware Update
     bInterfaceProtocol      1  
     iInterface             10 MSB Technology DFU
     Device Firmware Upgrade Interface Descriptor:
       bLength                             9
       bDescriptorType                    33
       bmAttributes                        7
         Will Not Detach
         Manifestation Tolerant
         Upload Supported
         Download Supported
       wDetachTimeout                    250 milliseconds
       wTransferSize                      64 bytes
       bcdDFUVersion                   1.10
   Interface Descriptor:
     bLength                 9
     bDescriptorType         4
     bInterfaceNumber        3
     bAlternateSetting       0
     bNumEndpoints           1
     bInterfaceClass         3 Human Interface Device
     bInterfaceSubClass      0  
     bInterfaceProtocol      0  
     iInterface             14 ProUSB V2.0 (MQA HID)
       HID Device Descriptor:
         bLength                 9
         bDescriptorType        33
         bcdHID               1.10
         bCountryCode            0 Not supported
         bNumDescriptors         1
         bDescriptorType        34 Report
         wDescriptorLength      21
         Report Descriptor: (length is 21)
           Item(Global): Usage Page, data= [ 0x00 0xff ] 65280
                           (null)
           Item(Local ? Usage, data= [ 0x01 ] 1
                           (null)
           Item(Main ? Collection, data= [ 0x01 ] 1
                           Application
           Item(Global): Logical Minimum, data= [ 0x00 ] 0
           Item(Global): Logical Maximum, data= [ 0xff 0x00 ] 255
           Item(Global): Report Size, data= [ 0x08 ] 8
           Item(Global): Report Count, data= [ 0x40 ] 64
           Item(Local ? Usage, data= [ 0x01 ] 1
                           (null)
           Item(Main ? Feature, data= [ 0x01 ] 1
                           Constant Array Absolute No_Wrap Linear
                           Preferred_State No_Null_Position Non_Volatile Bitfield
           Item(Main ? End Collection, data=none
     Endpoint Descriptor:
       bLength                 7
       bDescriptorType         5
       bEndpointAddress     0x83  EP 3 IN
       bmAttributes            3
         Transfer Type            Interrupt
         Synch Type               None
         Usage Type               Data
       wMaxPacketSize     0x0040  1x 64 bytes
       bInterval               8
Device Qualifier (for other device speed):
 bLength                10
 bDescriptorType         6
 bcdUSB               2.00
 bDeviceClass          239 Miscellaneous Device
 bDeviceSubClass         2  
 bDeviceProtocol         1 Interface Association
 bMaxPacketSize0        64
 bNumConfigurations      2
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
Device Status:     0x0000
 (Bus Powered)

 

Dump of the USB details of the ProISL module for those who can understand them. It sure isn't a simple trivial device :)

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OK, my dealer kindly lent me the Renderer V2 module, I can now compare EX -> SonoreUR + LPS -> ProISL versus EX -> Renderer V2 at home. 

 

I may be able to do a bit more focused comparisons during the next couple of days before I return but first impressions are very good.

 

I don't feel I am missing something with the Renderer (comparing together with another person would be preferable but out of the question due to covid restrictions...) and the extra convenience of using the remote for basic pause/next track operations is for me quite important as I quite ofter listen with closed eyes and find the need to unlock the phone/tablet to skip a track quite a nuisance. This might sound ridiculous but each to each own...

 

So... good job MSB on this one!

 

 

Edited by DrPo
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