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New Projectors from Sony


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https://www.avsforum.com/threads/new-projectors-2020.3141128/post-60099089

 

that slide delivered as part of a reviewers' guide is clearly marketing material. It is intended to, and clearly does, specify features that the consumer can and should expect from the product. You did not create that slide so it is not your mistake, it is Sony's. There is no hint, suggestion, or inference required from that slide. The slide provides explicit, detailed explanation of a dynamic tone mapping feature!

The Reviewers Guide is expected to be shared with audiences, in fact on the Pro side those guides are often given to large customers to summarize the new features that can be expected in the devices. Many potential customers have already seen that material image.gif.9ee437ca77142a446d6b0c98da1f440a.gif on the announcement date if not slightly before, which should explain some of the does it/does it not discussions.

Sony needs to correct this information, immediately!

Edited by wooferocau
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lets talk AV here guys...

 

ps thanks for the link above woofer, seems Dylan Seeger HT review has joined up AVS as he saw some of his review being talked about... his comments below gives us some headsup to the source of confusion(for reviewers) on the - "Dynamic tone mapping" aspect. Apparently sony asked for the graphic talking about dynamic tone mapping to be removed.

 

I see some of you guys are discussing some of the aspects of my First Look article. There's a few things I'd like to clear up.

Dynamic tone mapping is all about dynamic range compression. It makes sense, right? You're trying take all of the dynamic range encoded in the video signal and truncate it down into a range of luminance and color saturation your display is capable of. This is not what the 915ES' solution does. It actually does the opposite of what true/traditional DTM solutions do. If you take a look at the latest Spears and Munsil HDR test disc and setup the projector to clip at 1000 nits and playback the disc set to 4000 you get MASSIVE clipping. This would not happen with a properly setup DTM solution And the reason I say it does the opposite of traditional DTM solutions is because you actually get an increase in clipping when you enable the Dynamic HDR Enhancer option. This is because, as I mentioned in the article, Sony is "tone mapping" the content, but instead of decreasing dynamic range, they're actually increasing it or rather just shifting some of the picture information brighter. They're doing this so the projected image more closely matches the ideal PQ curve. Or at least that's what the graphic claimed it was doing. This shifting of the dynamic range makes the image appear brighter, as if DTM happened, but it hasn't.
 
"With all of this said, I'd like to mention that Sony asked for us to take the graphic down where it explicitly states "Dynamic Tone Mapping is Applied". They didn't give me an exact reason as to why it needed to come down. I was simply told some of the content in the photo was still confidential. Other than this graphic, all of the other information about the projector was revealed when it was announced last week. I don't know if this is Sony backtracking or if there truly was something confidential in it.
 

I know Sony uses the X1 chip for their televisions as well. I'd say your best bet to get an answer would be to look and see if any other Sony displays offer true DTM. JVC was only able to add in DTM functionality because it's using an FPGA for video processing. This is a modular CPU in the sense that you can reconfigure it to do whatever you want with it. If the X1 is more of an SoC type of chip, then I don't think this can be added in through a software update."

 

either way am sure Sony will provide some clarification with these aspects...

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7 minutes ago, betty boop said:

lets talk AV here guys...

 

Agreed, but I took exception to some of the unsubstantiated comments made by TP1 about JVC projectors, that have yet to be addressed.  I am all for forum harmony but when one member makes wild assertions they need to be challenged and one expects some response when they are challenged ... so far there has been none.

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12 hours ago, oztheatre said:

2K and use wobulation also,

 

Yes, the smaller chips are not 4K but they do not wobble and hope for the best like E-shift.  It is a more precise aggregation but of course not as good as their 4k chips.  There is controversy around whether you can call them true 4k but since they can project a dead accurate 4k picture ( sharper than LCD which can have  convergence issues) the consensus amongst most professionals is that they are true 4k. 

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2 minutes ago, TP1 said:

 

Some of us have a life away from the computer - don't worry- I will still call out the BS.    

 

Rightio ... perhaps it is better to not indulge in the BS yourself.

Edited by MrC
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37 minutes ago, MrC said:

Rightio ... perhaps it is better to not indulge in the BS yourself.

 

How dare someone criticise JVC?   Only other brands are fair game?   I speak from experience but you missed my point entirely. The point being most people prefer  their projector for a variety of reasons - not all of which are the same as everyone else.  The criticisms I made of JVC are  either not noticed or not seen as  significant by  others who are still happy with their decisions.   Conversely the same is said  for others  who don't buy  JVC which  is why I gave the DLP example .

 

So while the cut and paste tsunami  from AVS  centres on how Sony achieves its tone mapping,   there is nowhere near a body of evidence  accumulated yet to pronounce  how good or bad it is in day to day viewing.  If it's unworkable - as I have said before  Sony only have themselves to blame but since they did it for a reason ( never mind the second guessers) it is worth the wait to see how effective they have been. 

 

 

Edited by TP1
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38 minutes ago, TP1 said:

 

Yes, the smaller chips are not 4K but they do not wobble and hope for the best like E-shift.  It is a more precise aggregation but of course not as good as their 4k chips.  There is controversy around whether you can call them true 4k but since they can project a dead accurate 4k picture ( sharper than LCD which can have  convergence issues) the consensus amongst most professionals is that they are true 4k. 

 

They are far from dead accurate mate with very ordinary optics. The epson destroys these dlp machines for clarity and sharpness. I know, I've had them all here. I have not seen the X12000h however, that likely has better optics than the cheaper units but is double and triple the price at 10 grand rrp, might have gone up actually since cogworks now distribute that model.

 

So there is no 'true 4k' when you don't have the optics to represent the panel resolution. Why I'm so surprised Epson pulled this off. The previous models were average, but this 9400 is sharp as a tack with all glass optics.

 

Here is a good example of dreadful optics on one of these 'true 4k' projectors. Looks like the purple people eater. Some of them you could get the centre looking good but the sides would be out of focus, get one side focused and the other side drifts out by too much.

 

 

2700.jpg

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There are some individuals that appear to be getting really wound up by this. Can I just ask, so as to avoid having to lock the thread and being able to work towards the sharing of knowledge and factual information, that the discussion remains civil and respectful (towards members and the brands!). There's no need to get personal and offensive. Thanks.

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3 minutes ago, Marc said:

There are some individuals that appear to be getting really wound up by this. Can I just ask, so as to avoid having to lock the thread and being able to work towards the sharing of knowledge and factual information, that the discussion remains civil and respectful (towards members and the brands!). There's no need to get personal and offensive. Thanks.

Well put Marc. It doesn't need to go off the rails. Just truthful information is all that's needed.

And some patience.

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28 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

 

They are far from dead accurate mate with very ordinary optics. The epson destroys these dlp machines for clarity and sharpness. I know, I've had them all here. I have not seen the X12000h however, that likely has better optics than the cheaper units but is double and triple the price at 10 grand rrp, might have gone up actually since cogworks now distribute that model.

 

So there is no 'true 4k' when you don't have the optics to represent the panel resolution. Why I'm so surprised Epson pulled this off. The previous models were average, but this 9400 is sharp as a tack with all glass optics.

 

Here is a good example of dreadful optics on one of these 'true 4k' projectors. Looks like the purple people eater. Some of them you could get the centre looking good but the sides would be out of focus, get one side focused and the other side drifts out by too much.

 

 

2700.jpg

Which manufacturer is this Rich (if it is OK to say)?

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16 minutes ago, Marc said:

There are some individuals that appear to be getting really wound up by this. Can I just ask, so as to avoid having to lock the thread and being able to work towards the sharing of knowledge and factual information, that the discussion remains civil and respectful (towards members and the brands!). There's no need to get personal and offensive. Thanks.

I will say nothing further and I will agree to be respectful.

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20 minutes ago, lucmor444 said:

Which manufacturer is this Rich (if it is OK to say)?

Oh I'd rather not say.. I get into too much trouble being truthful haha.

It's dlp so not too many guesses required : )

 

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2 hours ago, oztheatre said:

Oh I'd rather not say.. I get into too much trouble being truthful haha.

It's dlp so not too many guesses required : )

 

I didn't buy DLP either Rich -  I think we agree in principle about which system is  better but I know at least one guy who wouldn't trade it for anything based upon what he sees are the perceived advantages.   I find it  hard to call him wrong if it is delivering what he wants. I am sure he is not alone.

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Just now, TP1 said:

I didn't buy DLP either Rich -  I think we agree in principle about which system is  better but I know at least one guy who wouldn't trade it for anything based upon what he sees are the perceived advantages.   I find it  hard to call him wrong if it is delivering what he wants. I am sure he is not alone.

Yes I know people who won't use anything other than DLP too. I loved my BenQ W5000 back in the day, threw a lovely image.

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from same thread on avs linked above, some other interesting things from kris, Javs asked re contrast. Kris is seeing contrast "within the same range as before" Sony has indicated to him the panels "are same as before"  so that does make sense. I did ask re the infinity contrast claims... to which he says it "only applies when there is absolutely nothing on the screen" not really too sure of the value of that :D  but then again such are contrast claims from makers ! anyways we will no doubt continue to know more from folk as they have experince with these and we find out more ....

 

"The infinite contrast ratio is based on using the dynamic laser/iris dimming option FULL and completely separate from the HDR settings. And the infinite only applies when there is absolutely nothing on the screen."

 

"I never saw anything that mentioned new panels and Sony told me they are the same as before and throughout the line. Contrast is within the same range as before."

 

"Not sure on the GTZ but I was told for the consumer line the panels are identical from the 295 to the 5000 in my meeting last week."

 

 

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6 minutes ago, CCRider said:

"I did ask re the infinity contrast claims... to which he says it "only applies when there is absolutely nothing on the screen" 

That is as good as Udders on a Bull?

Yep completely pointless and just used to wow people who don't know. 

 

Like the dynamic contrast of dlp projectors of an amazing 3 million to 1. real world measurements of native contrast about 650:1.. etc.

 

They all do it, don't know why, I guess one company starts doing it and the rest feel like they need to follow.

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Just now, wooferocau said:

re the infinity contrast claims.

 

Just a note on this...  this basically is a term used with ALL laser based projectors using a Dynamic Dimming system where by the Laser can shut off 100%.  Its in reality meaningless  , and most ignore it.

 

 

haha great for when your projector stops working 

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4 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

Yep completely pointless and just used to wow people who don't know. 

 

Like the dynamic contrast of dlp projectors of an amazing 3 million to 1. real world measurements of native contrast about 650:1.. etc.

 

They all do it, don't know why, I guess one company starts doing it and the rest feel like they need to follow.

Lol like the 870es contrast was ∞ : 1 ( infinity :1 )

Edited by franin
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9 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

Yep completely pointless and just used to wow people who don't know. 

 

1 minute ago, wooferocau said:

Same as my Z1/RS4500             Its a "Bullsh*t"  marketing figure used, but not only by SONY..

 

yep cereal box spec... there all just as bad .... sounds good though :D 

 

To Infinity and beyond..... :hyper:

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16 minutes ago, wooferocau said:

re the infinity contrast claims.

 

Just a note on this...  this basically is a term used with ALL laser based projectors using a Dynamic Dimming system where by the Laser can shut off 100%.  Its in reality meaningless  , and most ignore it.

 

 

I remember trying it, it was actually quite annoying.

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