New room sucks.

[Pim]

On 13/08/2020 at 8:59 PM, Yamaha_man said:

I may be wrong but those speakers do look rather small for a reasonably sized room.

what size bass drivers do they have?

I use stand mounts in a room more than twice that size and the bass sounds really good up to a certain volume. Of course the larger the drivers, the more bass you can get but if there are room modes in play, I don't think bigger drivers will help. A mate of mine has B&W D2's in a small room and his bass is rather bad too.

 

My best guess is it's the room being square. OP might have to have a fight on his hands. Either with the stereo or the missus.

[Hydrology]

You mention moving back by 1m improves things - is there any reason why this cant be more permanent?

 

[Al.M]

4 hours ago, Pim said:

I use stand mounts in a room more than twice that size and the bass sounds really good up to a certain volume. Of course the larger the drivers, the more bass you can get but if there are room modes in play, I don't think bigger drivers will help. A mate of mine has B&W D2's in a small room and his bass is rather bad too.

 

My best guess is it's the room being square. OP might have to have a fight on his hands. Either with the stereo or the missus.

I’ve had Proac Response 2.5 floorstanders and other large standmounts with 6-7inch woofers and they were also able to fill large rooms with bass, but it depends on each speaker design and bass response. Some speakers have too controlled bass response that won’t fill larger rooms, which SF in general seems to have.

 

As mentioned OP should move seat forward to achieve the recommended equilateral listening triangle plus find where in that distance bass sounds he strongest, try fill the room with enough normal amounts of furniture to see if the room modes and reflections might improve before resorting to treatments, move speakers closer to rear wall to increase bass vs loss of imaging trade off, failing that a subwoofer.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Al.M

[almikel]

On 13/08/2020 at 6:43 PM, JOH1975 said:

if I move 1m back there is a lovely warm bass but it’s dry and thin where I have the chair

"lovely warm bass but it’s dry and thin" is a bit of a contradiction...although "dry" bass is what I aim for - no ringing or overhang.

On 13/08/2020 at 8:27 PM, JOH1975 said:

Im lucky to have a room but I think that 2 12’s might be my undoing. 

then you might struggle to achieve good bass in that room

 

On 13/08/2020 at 8:05 PM, JOH1975 said:

Bass traps I could probably do but I thought they were for decreasing bass nor increasing it. 

Room treatment targeted at bass frequencies can assist in reducing the peaks and troughs of room modes and speaker boundary interference response (SBIR), but treatment will be many times larger than 2 x 12" or 2 x 15"  or 2 x 18" subs...if you can't get away with a couple of subs you'll never get away with the size of treatment required to target lower frequencies...

 

...of course  you actually need both multiple subs and treatment - put that to the boss and you may compromise on a single 15" sub and some treatment targeted at low frequencies

 

Mike

 

 

[Jarrod Harrison]

Thanks for all the great ideas in this post. 
With some negotiation with my wife and some acceptance from myself I have moved the room 90° to the right. 
I don’t have the nice big picture window to look out of but I’ve been able to move the chair back and avoid the apparent null. 
Still tidying up from the move but I’m so happy I found a way without extensive room treatments. 

[Tony B]

They look a fair way apart? Are you able to achieve a solid central image?

[TDX]

52 minutes ago, Tony B said:

They look a fair way apart? Are you able to achieve a solid central image?

They do look far away apart and a bit lonely for the room 

[almikel]

big room - you're very lucky!...but 6" bass drivers will struggle to fill it

 

surely the boss would allow a couple of 15" sealed subs, or maybe a sub hidden in a coffee table, sideboard etc?

 

What's the room construction - walls/floor/walls? - walls look like VJs in the photo, which can rattle but let the low bass through - if construction is lightweight (eg timber floor, gyprock ceiling) you may not have any significant "in room" low bass issues, as it all just passes through the boundaries rather than bouncing around inside the room.

 

Adding some horsepower in the bottom end with a sub or 2 will take the load of the 6" bass drivers in your main speakers, reducing distortion...

 

...if that is a bridge too far, as @Tony B alludes to, I'd bring the speakers closer together, and have a critical listening position spot with the listening chair brought forward to the classic equilateral triangle, and moved back to the "partner friendly" spot when the room isn't used for critical listening - not quite "nearfield" distance but close to...

 

...also think about if there's another room you could move the stereo to and get away with treatment and/or subs, just a smaller room - that's what I did 10 years ago when moving into a new house. I started discussing room treatments in the lounge room with the boss, and she said to do what I want with the spare room downstairs - which is where the main stereo has been since.

 

The listening room has evolved over time, but has loads of absorption, PSE144 horn top end with stereo TD18 mid bass underneath and a single large sub (2400 x 600 x 300) that my wife calls the "coffin box".

 

My wife loves the sound, and spends as much time as I do in our dedicated "stereo" room.

 

Along the way she's also gained a great appreciation for room treatment - I swapped the absorption from fiberglass to polyester during the process and for a couple of weeks the room was "naked".

She tried to listen to the stereo and after 5 minutes came and said, "the room is broken, hurry up and treat it again".

 

She was gobsmacked (as I was) after upgrading the mid bass to 18 inch Acoustic Elegance TD18  speakers underneath the PSE144 horns - she jokes that if we ever split up she would take the TD18s (no f*^$ing way...  )

 

Then I added a really big sub for cavernous/effortless low bass as although I thought the mid bass was fantastic, after listening to friend's systems, mine was missing something in the "bottom octave".

The sub just adds weight - very subtle - you only know it's there if you turn it off.

 

cheers

Mike

 

 

 

 

[Jarrod Harrison]

3 hours ago, Tony B said:

They look a fair way apart? Are you able to achieve a solid central image?

This is a good question. I’m still working on final placement but the null is gone. 
 

It’s a bit expansive sounding now so now to experiment with toe in and maybe bringing them closer together.  But then I need to bring my chair forward and risk introducing the null again (assuming the equilateral triangle is best).  I have read that so long at the distance between speakers is the short edge of a triangle that’s ok too. 
 

they do look a bit small in this room but they do now sound balanced much more balanced and I get plenty of level. 

[betty boop]

51 minutes ago, JOH1975 said:

It’s a bit expansive sounding now so now to experiment with toe in and maybe bringing them closer together.  But then I need to bring my chair forward and risk introducing the null again (assuming the equilateral triangle is best).  I have read that so long at the distance between speakers is the short edge of a triangle that’s ok too. 

I wouldn't worry re toe in yet see if there is a hole in middle of soundstage or things on top of each other... find a happy medium in between...

 

re null... that is room related and how far speakers from front wall and where listening position is relative to front and back wall. where are you currently ? its to be honest very hard to make any comment as there is no bearing as to what the room actually is like in either dimension with sketch or where placing yourself currently  

[almikel]

1 hour ago, JOH1975 said:

But then I need to bring my chair forward and risk introducing the null again (assuming the equilateral triangle is best).

so easy to test - just bring your seat forward...or walk forward...and see how the bass is...

...bass changes significantly throughout any room - the amount depends on the rigidity of the boundaries and the amount of treatment in the room...the bass won't change as you walk around inside a tent, but lots in a concrete bunker - they're the extremes, your room is somewhere between...

Step the listening seat forward until the bass sounds good/balanced....further forward and you'll find another null...retreat backwards again.

 

It's completely normal in "typical" rooms to have bass peaks/troughs throughout the room...you just want the bass you want at the listening position...

...In  my room the bass is too loud when standing at the laptop changing songs/albums, but going back to the listening couch it's all fine...this is expected (ie different bass between the listening position and anywhere else in the room...your room my have less bass when you're changing vinyl)...good/clean bass at the listening position is all that matters...

 

Walk around your room and hear the difference in bass...put your ear close to a wall, in a corner,. crouch down into a tri-corner - the bass changes...it doesn't matter as long as the bass is as you like it at the listening position.

 

Mike

[lemarquis]

On 23/08/2020 at 7:42 PM, almikel said:

Walk around your room and hear the difference in bass...put your ear close to a wall, in a corner,. crouch down into a tri-corner - the bass changes...it doesn't matter as long as the bass is as you like it at the listening position.

 

Mike

I used to think so until I put bass traps in those corners (of a very irregular room) where I could hear the bass booming when I stuck my head in there. Made the most significant improvement to my system ever. All that stray bass has a way of smearing things. Talk about lowering the 'noise floor'!

[almikel]

 

5 hours ago, lemarquis said:

I used to think so until I put bass traps in those corners (of a very irregular room) where I could hear the bass booming when I stuck my head in there. Made the most significant improvement to my system ever. All that stray bass has a way of smearing things.

I completely agree that room treatment is a game changer for "in room" sound, but unless you've turned your room into an anechoic chamber, the bass will still change throughout the room - and that doesn't matter as long as the bass is "as you like it" at the listening position...

 

5 hours ago, lemarquis said:

I put bass traps in those corners

What are your "bass traps" in those corners?

 

I have a lot of absorption in my room, but no treatment I would regard as "bass traps".

The absorption in my room cleans up the response above 150Hz or so significantly, with a reducing effectiveness below that.

 

Referring to any absorption treatment as a "bass trap" is a misnomer - unless they are truly massive they won't absorb much below 150Hz or so, but they'll still absorb everything above unless covered with a membrane or slats to reflect higher frequencies.

 

Membrane/limp mass/Helmholtz traps can be regarded as bass traps, as they don't absorb higher frequencies, but because they're all narrowband, much trickier to design/build.

 

I have a lightly constructed room, so all the low bass leaks out - my room measurements are OK (not great) with a bunch of absorption cleaning up >150hz and a few bands of EQ cut below that...the bass is clean/dry/no overhang.

 

A more rigid room would require specialist "bass traps" - fortunately I don't need any.

 

Mike

[lemarquis]

13 hours ago, almikel said:

 

I completely agree that room treatment is a game changer for "in room" sound, but unless you've turned your room into an anechoic chamber, the bass will still change throughout the room - and that doesn't matter as long as the bass is "as you like it" at the listening position...

 

What are your "bass traps" in those corners?

 

I have a lot of absorption in my room, but no treatment I would regard as "bass traps".

 

Sounds like you have your situation sorted. Unlike me who waited years before applying any treatments because i was largely satisfied with the sound except for an occasional boominess at some frequencies, and only with some discs. 

 

Having read quite a bit here and there on approaches to certain issues, I chanced upon the above mentioned muddiness in the corners described elsewhere. Hadn't noticed it much before (or paid attention to it more likely) but after a session of sticking my head in every nook and cranny (lockdown affords time for such essential pursuits) there it was , and in places I hitherto never suspected (i.e. not the obvious ones). 

 

Enter some 'bass traps', so described by the catalogue but not necessarily by the scientists, from Selby. Not too expensive and allegedly reasonably effective and importantly easy to manipulate as I do not want a permanent installation given the room constraints. (Hint : one problem area is a kitchen alcove to the left of the speaker which provides 2 nasty little corners and proved to be the worst offender). 

 

These are not the last word in acoustic treatment and I probably have a little further to go before I can say that all issues are adequately addressed but the results from this rather simple approach have been immediate and profound. 

 

It's all in the listening.

[almikel]

Hi @lemarquis - sounds like you have your situation sorted also...the one point I would make is that it doesn't matter if the sound is muddy in a corner...unless you like listening in a corner...

 

The only sound that matters is in the listening positions of the room - easier with a single listening position - harder with multiple.

On 26/08/2020 at 11:00 AM, lemarquis said:

the results from this rather simple approach have been immediate and profound. 

adding absorption treatment to a room can make a truly profound difference - vastly more than interconnects, electronics etc

Ultimate speakers + bad room = ordinary sound

reasonable speakers + great room = great sound

 

Mike

[davewantsmoore]

On 13/08/2020 at 6:43 PM, JOH1975 said:

speakers toed in

curtains open and closed.

Neither of these things, nor "room treatment" (unless it's large bass traps) will affect your problem.

 

The only things which affect it are.

 

Position of the listener

Position of the bass sources

Relative to the room boundaries.

 

What that means is either (or a combination of) move the speaker, move you....  or get another bass source (eg. a subwoofer), not so much because it's adding "more" bass... but because it's moving the bass source(s).

 

If you're sitting in an equalateral triangle with the speaker, then it looks like your chair will be "out into he room" (this is good) .... but I would assume thats a "temporary" chair juts for listening.   If that's right (it's hard to tell from photos, with perspective) then why can't you put the chair whever you want it?

[davewantsmoore]

On 13/08/2020 at 7:33 PM, Gabehcuod said:

Going from a smaller room to a larger one, I would expect the bass level to drop significantly.

There's no reason to suspect this.

On 13/08/2020 at 7:55 PM, Martykt said:

The fixes for this is either playing with the placement of speakers and seating or treating the room with bass traps.

Re: bass traps .... they will need to be very large.    Most newbies don't realis that effective traps will stick out more than 30cm into the room, and take up a significant amount of square meterage.....   this isn't usually approprite in a "living room" .... also bass traps with signfiicant absrobtion (which many/most do) have problems for the high frequencies.
 

On 13/08/2020 at 8:05 PM, JOH1975 said:

Bass traps I could probably do but I thought they were for decreasing bass nor increasing it. 

The bass traps will absorb the bass and prevent the bass from "mixing with itself" in the room.... it's this "mixing with itself" that causes large peaks and dips (no bass) in the room.

 

So, paradoxically..... absorbing the bass.... will make "more bass" (at some potiitons in the room).

On 13/08/2020 at 8:22 PM, JOH1975 said:

the room does have some irregularity with the shape.

These irregularities are too small to be of consequence for bass frequencies.

 

On 13/08/2020 at 8:22 PM, JOH1975 said:

I actually thought it’d be a good sounding room but alas no

All rooms can sound good/bad, depending on where you sit.

 

As I said.... where you place the bass sources and listener in relation to the boundaries.... is essentially the whole puzle.   Little else matters at all.

 

You just got lucky in your previous room  

On 13/08/2020 at 9:02 PM, Marc said:

It's only a 6" driver so it's a big ask really for a 6x6m room.

If the listening level is the same as the old (3m) room, then we are only talking about distances of "double".   This isn't very signficant.... and will not explain the issue   (especially not given the symptoms described, ie. move back = good bass).

On 13/08/2020 at 9:02 PM, Marc said:

You could look at adding a single, quality 12" sub which will probably do the trick in reinforcing the bottom end.

The sub will add another bass "location".    It's the extra location (as opposed to the extra "oomph") which will make the change.

 

A sub is a good idea.

On 13/08/2020 at 9:02 PM, Marc said:

While not known for their dynamics ability, they're rear ported, so you could also push them further back against the wall for a bit more rear loading. 

Increasing the "loading" on the port will make it more like a "sealed box" .... and this will reduce the bass.

 

Moving it in relation to the wall, will change where the specific peaks and dips caused by the wall happen in the frequency response thoguh.... so doing this will change the sound (and you might get "better bass" ..... but it's not from increased "port loading").

[davewantsmoore]

On 25/08/2020 at 9:18 PM, almikel said:

I have a lightly constructed room, so all the low bass leaks out

For the other in this thread...

 

This is a good thing.

 

It sounds like it would lead to "less bass" ..... but what happens is becuase less bass bounces back into the room.... then the bass "mixes with itself" less .... and this means you have less peaks and dips (reiforcements and cancellations) in the room.    So you have less of the "bass nulls" problems like the person in this thread (and most people) have.

[08Boss302]

Just went through something kind of similar, I wont go through the whole situation I had but you can read the thread in full if you wish.  Initially my question was regards to a channel bias in my room, but after I took a few weeks of research and time (got a fair bit of that in Vic atm) I actually learnt more was happening than I thought and followed a few methods of placement.

 

This is how I got around it.

It wont be to everyones liking but its worked out really well for me and it MIGHT be something you look at doing providing you are happy to take your time... 

 

I am not a pro or anything close at this, but its made a significant difference to my listening in bass control, soundstage and also removed the channel bias that crept in after I changed the room around.

 

This link should take you straight my last post on what I ended up doing.  Cost me nothing but time and patience.  It may help you if not thats ok too.

 

 

 

[Guest DrSK]

On 23/08/2020 at 5:19 PM, JOH1975 said:

This is a good question. I’m still working on final placement but the null is gone. 
 

It’s a bit expansive sounding now so now to experiment with toe in and maybe bringing them closer together.  But then I need to bring my chair forward and risk introducing the null again (assuming the equilateral triangle is best).  I have read that so long at the distance between speakers is the short edge of a triangle that’s ok too. 
 

they do look a bit small in this room but they do now sound balanced much more balanced and I get plenty of level. 

Note in a room of that size, go too narrow and the side wall reflections will have a too large a delay and become audible and also interfere with imaging. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by DrSK

[Guest DrSK]

On 23/08/2020 at 5:19 PM, JOH1975 said:

It’s a bit expansive sounding now so now to experiment with toe in and maybe bringing them closer together.  But then I need to bring my chair forward and risk introducing the null again (assuming the equilateral triangle is best).  I have read that so long at the distance between speakers is the short edge of a triangle that’s ok too. 

Depends on the room and available positions. The best balance for me (nulls, modes, and delay times of reflections) was to have the long side between the speakers and sit just inside of the point of the triangle with a bit of toe to counter sitting inside the triangle.

 

I needed the long side between the speakers so the speakers were closer to the side walls, which reduced the delay time of the side wall reflections. Room is 7m by 4.5m and due to door positions have to run across the room. At 6m your delay times could get reasonably high too.

 

Tuned speaker and listening positions in 100m increments until it sounded the best. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by DrSK

[Pim]

I had quite a good result by going to the Cardas web site and finding the best spot for my speakers with their calculators. I then found the best spot for my listening seat and fine tuned from there on. I now have a 'best spot for music listening' that has my speakers quite far into the room so I've put a few small marks on the floor and just set them up there for serious listening and put them back near the wall for TV and background music. It gives me the best of both worlds.