intramuscular fat Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Hi all, i recently changed from 4ohm standmounts to 8ohm standmounts. I drive them with a hybrid integrated Vincent amp that produces 196w at 4ohm, but only 100w at 8ohm ( no surprises there). My problem being that i feel the new standmounts (proac studio 118, 30Hz to 30KHz. Sensitivity 88.5 dB) now feel somewhat underpowered and lifeless. having upgraded the valves in the preamp of my current integrated i am reluctant to part with it, so i am thinking of adding a power amp (connections allow this) Am i on the right track? If so , any good options i should be looking out for? - up to $1k? - very happy with second hand . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwurb Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 What was the sensitivity of your old 4 Ohm speakers? Have you heard your 8 Ohm speakers on a more powerful amplifier? Maybe during your audition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereo coffee Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Loudspeakers which are 10 ohms ( 8 ohms specification is the Proac studio 118 ) or lower will better suit solid state amps, whereas 10 ohms or higher better suit valve amps. The reasons are provided here http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps_7.html Generally choosing a topology of amplifier that addresses lowering distortion, and that has good sensitivity to match to source components, should be high on your list of requirements. The CD format rarely exceeds 350mv RMS output, see attached, you therefore should match power amp sensitivity close to that figure. A great example is the Quad range of current dumping amps, like the Quad 306 - offering very low distortion via clever circuit design and its specifications are perfect for todays sources. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intramuscular fat Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) THE sensitivity of the 4ohms was 90dB thx Edited August 12, 2020 by intramuscular fat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangzie Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 couple of questions: did you audition the speakers before buying them? And if so, did you notice this difference at the time? What is it specifically that you feel is lacking? Is it high frequency sparkle? Or are you missing some low end punchiness? What were your previous speakers for reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quark Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Not sure if your amp has 4 and 8 Ohm connections. If so, try your speakers on the 4 Ohm outputs - while many speakers claim to be a nominal 8 Ohm, they often have big impedance dips at low frequencies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intramuscular fat Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 I didn't audition the speaker - they were bought on this website second hand - it was a bit of an opportunistic trade up. Previous speaker were Paradigm Studio 20 V5. Whats lacking? liveliness at lower volumes... Details and mid /highs are good with volume ( vocals and highs definitely better than previous) but the whole sound seems to be less of a "presence in the room".. I don't listen to electronica or other bass intensive music, so i am not seeking that kind of room moving response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) My speakers are 86 or 87db and 8ohms nominal not dropping below 5.8ohms and I use a 20 watt tube amp. Unless the proac's have a very difficult (low dip) impedance in the range somewhere I'd think 100 watts is OK. Maybe what you are hearing is the different presentation or each speaker? Edit: maybe an amp pushing more current could help *shrug* Edited August 13, 2020 by muon* 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddyev Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) I don't have experience with either speaker — though I do have 2 sets of Proacs, the 1s and D18s — so take this with a pinch of salt. It seems to me that you've made a sideways speaker move and you're hearing the different sonic signatures/presentations of both speakers. Proac tend to have great midrange strengths while I suspect the Paradigms you had might be more dynamic? I doubt there's a problem with the amp and adding a power amp probably won't help. Edited August 13, 2020 by buddyev 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangzie Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 55 minutes ago, intramuscular fat said: liveliness at lower volumes... Details and mid /highs are good with volume ( vocals and highs definitely better than previous) but the whole sound seems to be less of a "presence in the room". With this, I think Muon is likely right here and that's it's just a difference in presentation. i can't help but wonder if maybe the Paradigms might have had a small mid bass hump or similar to make them sound a little "bigger" or "fuller" and the proacs might have just a more balanced overall sound. or possibly low end rolls off a little faster? I'm not sure a new power amp would resolve the issue you've described. A sub might 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irek Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 You can audition that one at home. https://www.marchaudio.net.au/product-page/p502-500-watt-stereo-power-amplifier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 You should stick with the amp you have. It is certainly sufficiently powerful for the Proac and 100 watts is ample especially since impedance is higher, which makes life much easier for the amplifier. I think what you are hearing is the different sound characteristic going to the Proacs after the Paradigm, which are more forward, with a mid bass hump, where the Proac are more neutral and uncoloured and it may be a simple as you preferring the Paradigms. I really don't think changing the amp will do much at all unless you are prepared to spend multiples of the Vincent's cost. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweaky Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 4 hours ago, intramuscular fat said: Hi all, i recently changed from 4ohm standmounts to 8ohm standmounts. I drive them with a hybrid integrated Vincent amp that produces 196w at 4ohm, but only 100w at 8ohm ( no surprises there). My problem being that i feel the new standmounts (proac studio 118, 30Hz to 30KHz. Sensitivity 88.5 dB) now feel somewhat underpowered and lifeless. having upgraded the valves in the preamp of my current integrated i am reluctant to part with it, so i am thinking of adding a power amp (connections allow this) Am i on the right track? If so , any good options i should be looking out for? - up to $1k? - very happy with second hand . I also doubt it's the amp, and I also doubt that your PROAC's are close to 8 ohms over most of their operational range, I'd guessitimate more like 6 ohms on average. The truth is small box speakers compress the sound, some more so than others, and depending on the design, at different frequencies. There is a way you could try to get more from the PROAC's that I have seen used at audio shows successfully with small speakers, and that's with a specific room placement theory by George Cardas [see link below] I tried this when I used to run equally sized stand mounts [Celestion SL600 and B&W 805's ], and it did work, but I couldn't live with the speaker placement in my room long term, so I ended up moving to a larger speaker. If you have a room that is more a dedicated music space, then this room placement could help solve your problem, if not you may want to audition either a larger speaker or a small horn loaded speaker [the latter will have more punch but I doubt will be as smooth] http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chill3 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 3 hours ago, intramuscular fat said: I didn't audition the speaker - they were bought on this website second hand - it was a bit of an opportunistic trade up. Previous speaker were Paradigm Studio 20 V5. Whats lacking? liveliness at lower volumes... Details and mid /highs are good with volume ( vocals and highs definitely better than previous) but the whole sound seems to be less of a "presence in the room".. I don't listen to electronica or other bass intensive music, so i am not seeking that kind of room moving response. As others have said, sounds very much like your describing the basic presentation differences between those particular speakers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intramuscular fat Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Fangzie said: With this, I think Muon is likely right here and that's it's just a difference in presentation. i can't help but wonder if maybe the Paradigms might have had a small mid bass hump or similar to make them sound a little "bigger" or "fuller" and the proacs might have just a more balanced overall sound. or possibly low end rolls off a little faster? I'm not sure a new power amp would resolve the issue you've described. A sub might Thanks Fangzie, and everyone.. that seems like a consensus view and probably rings true to me when i think about it.. I previously did not enjoy a sub in my 2 channel hifi - i tried a definitive technology super cube 4000 and was underwhelmed.. since then i have realised i probably should have got an SVS..... Any thoughts on what would be good sub in my setup? thanks again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddyev Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) I presume you’ve sold your paradigms? It might just be you prefer their sound to the Proacs. You may be on a hiding to nothing in trying to recover that sound. If you do want subs SVS sealed subs are very good - I have 2 SB 1000 with my B&W standmounts. I’ve become a true believer in standmounts + subs over floorstanders. However, subs will augment the bass and they do seem to improve the whole tonal range, but I can’t really see how they will solve the ‘lifeless at low volumes’ problem you mentioned. Edited August 13, 2020 by buddyev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHH Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 I have found that REL subs pair well with ProAc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Rutter Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 hours ago, intramuscular fat said: Hi all, i recently changed from 4ohm standmounts to 8ohm standmounts. I drive them with a hybrid integrated Vincent amp that produces 196w at 4ohm, but only 100w at 8ohm ( no surprises there). My problem being that i feel the new standmounts (proac studio 118, 30Hz to 30KHz. Sensitivity 88.5 dB) now feel somewhat underpowered and lifeless. having upgraded the valves in the preamp of my current integrated i am reluctant to part with it, so i am thinking of adding a power amp (connections allow this) Am i on the right track? If so , any good options i should be looking out for? - up to $1k? - very happy with second hand . No you are not on the "right track". Do a bit of study into load impedences and power amps and you won't need to ask such a question. I get the feeling that forums like this attract lazy people. So please don't be one of those. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddyev Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said: No you are not on the "right track". Do a bit of study into load impedences and power amps and you won't need to ask such a question. I get the feeling that forums like this attract lazy people. So please don't be one of those. That’s a very bad tempered response to a new member asking for advice. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mac Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said: No you are not on the "right track". Do a bit of study into load impedences and power amps and you won't need to ask such a question. I get the feeling that forums like this attract lazy people. So please don't be one of those. Wowsers... there's nothing like showing a bit of support for a relatively new member who IS on on the right track, but has instead copped a 'virtual' slapdown for seeking advice and feedback. This sort of approach deters new members from coming back. Edited August 13, 2020 by pete_mac 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Perth Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said: No you are not on the "right track". Do a bit of study into load impedences and power amps and you won't need to ask such a question. I get the feeling that forums like this attract lazy people. So please don't be one of those. WOW great response, with responses like that us new to audio will be scared away, luckily i realise "there is always one" Then i realised his from Melbourne and probably in lock down. lol Edited August 13, 2020 by Sean Perth 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telecine Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 24 minutes ago, buddyev said: That’s a very bad tempered response to a new member asking for advice. True but I think that we should cut him some slack given that he is from Melbourne and a Citroen owner, must be hell 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddyev Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Telecine said: True but I think that we should cut him some slack given that he is from Melbourne and a Citroen owner, must be hell Yes, a recipe for pure miserabilism. Bl@@dy Queenslanders. Edited August 13, 2020 by buddyev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 9 hours ago, intramuscular fat said: Hi all, i recently changed from 4ohm standmounts to 8ohm standmounts. I drive them with a hybrid integrated Vincent amp that produces 196w at 4ohm, but only 100w at 8ohm ( no surprises there). My problem being that i feel the new standmounts (proac studio 118, 30Hz to 30KHz. Sensitivity 88.5 dB) now feel somewhat underpowered and lifeless. 8 hours ago, intramuscular fat said: THE sensitivity of the 4ohms was 90dB thx Ok am confused, I am in Melbourne and have a French cd player (Which is even worse than a french car!!) Doesnt this mean for him to equal the volume of the 4ohm speaker running at say 60 watts at 90dB sens he needs to run (roughly) the 80hm 88.5db speaker at 90watts. on one he is using around 30% of his theoretical power and on the other he is using around 90% of his theoretical power. I would of thoought this would be noticeable and this is in the unlikely case that the speaker is not difficullt to drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) Most of use only listen at a few watts at best, even me with 86-87db speakers. The rest is for transients. Edit: I have a Linear pot in my amp, but volume controls mostly are logarithmic. Edited August 13, 2020 by muon* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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