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Tubes - What makes more of a difference to the sound??


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What makes more of a difference to the sound, differences between tube types, or differences between brand and quality within a tube type? Would one get more of a variety in sound owning an variety of 45/2A3/300b amps (provided the design is similar), or alternatively an amp you can tube roll different tube types, OR owning a variety of tubes with one amp? 

Edited by Midget
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All aspects mentioned above will change the sound signature. Whether you roll different brands of the same tube type for the same circuit topology or roll different tube types in a flexible circuit design the net effect will be the same. It's an option that SS amps can't offer.

 

The more common the tube type the more options will be available to accommodate the sound to your liking. And yes owning more tube amps is also great as you can roll not only tubes but amps as well - one day class AB PP may suit the next day class A SET may be your thing.

 

Enjoy the warmth, immediacy and staging all in a single experience rolling through the wonderful world of thermionic pleasure.

Edited by xlr8or
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Tubes/valve audio technology and lovers of fine music music gravitate together naturally in my opinion.

 

May I add something to xlr8or's excellent comment? There is no substitute for hearing a particular tube type--in a good circuit/amp. This will endow you with reference sonic experiences. Surprisingly, no one tube topology can 'do it all' musically, in my experience, but that's quite OK. I predict that when you hear the virtues of pentode and triode, single-ended and push-pull, you'll incline more to one kind of presentation--to suit your tastes. This is as it should be. Then there are variations within the favoured tube presentation depending on tube quality.

 

Note that one tube application does not rule out another in a different musical context! Death to 'black and white/either-or" thinking! I like all tubes but some I really love.

 

This variety is also why there are many types of wine and food and cars...and why the missionary position is so well-known...but I digress.

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1 hour ago, Colin Rutter said:

The output transformer has the greatest influence on the sq. Imho.

Agreed. Coupling caps brand are another variable that influence the sound.

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Thanks everyone, I’m still not clear about what makes more of a difference however. 
 

Do all 300b’s share somewhat of a similarity sound characteristic, with minor differences in brand and quality varying this sound within a certain range? When switching to a 2A3 does this generally give a completely different sound character?  Or can you find 300b’s and 2A3’s that sound very similar and two 300b’s that sound completely different. If both of these instances are possible, which is more common, and which one generally gives more of a difference in sound characteristic. 

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Guest dr_carl

Well Midge, I  think the message is that no single variable dominates. There are lots of changes one can make, some add up to something,  some don't. 

 

When it comes down to it, we are tweakers and we tweak, you know, just in case ...

 

It's all very subjective.  A totally different sound? That's the off switch. Everything else that we call dramatic change is not perceived by non audiophiles. Just have some fun. Play around.

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I *think* you might be fixated on the tube rather than the whole package [tube + configuration + amplifier (circuit + parts + transformer)]?

 

It's not so simple as you imply by your question, because the tube is part of the whole. For example, a single-ended tube amp, run in pentode/ultralinear, is very often the reviewer's overall choice in an amp where they could have triode if they wished (I have seen this said in reviews of VTL, Consonance and Cayin).

 

If your favoured music is mostly played well by your favourite tube/amplifier then you won't be put out by the small proportion of other music that 'might' not be dealt with so very well. This is the reality for most systems. Of course when you spend the very big bucks you'll have it all.

 

There is an instructive and extensive Audiogon discussion about this topic you have raised: 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ultralinear-vs-triode-vs-set

 

Lots of people have pondered your type of question.

 

One excerpt:

I own, and like, SET amps. Yes, there are things that they do that really cannot be matched by other designs (realistic decay of notes, truly enveloping soundstage).

But, the difference between the SET topology and pushpull is perhaps not as big a difference as that between tube types. I agree with the poster who noted how much a 300b in SET and pushpull share common characteristics. I have heard quite a few 300b, 45 and 2a3 pushpull and SET amps. I own, and like the sound of my pushpull 45 amp, even though it doesn't do all that a good SET can do. The amps tend to sound most like the tube type, with pushpull topology sounding "tighter" and seeming to not have as much "bloom" and not delivering all of the harmonic richness of the SET.

On the power limitation/speaker compatibility issue, I would agree that, if one happens to like a speaker that demands more power, then the priority is to find a compatible amp, and if that means foregoing certain topologies, that is just one of MANY compromises one must make when building a system (to me the priority is speaker choice first and foremost, then finding a compatible amp--not the other way around). But, I find that most people overestimate how much power they really need and the range of speaker choices for SET amplification is really not as narrow as some would believe. I've heard several 845 and 211 SETs that would work with almost anything, provided the room is not too large and one does not require extremely high playback levels. If one finds that much more power is needed, I would look at OTL amps first, then solid state amps (I tend to dislike higher powered pentode tube amps).

On the subject of OTLs, it may well be the case that a good OTL would be a first choice, regardless of power requirement. I love the speed, liveliness and "directness" of OTL. Within their power limitations, SETs can also have that quality, but, it is really hard to beat an OTL in those regards. To me, the tradeoff is that the sound is a touch "raw" or "rough."

One more thing, there is a pretty wide range of capabilities of SET amps. Although the SET topology is quite simple, SET amps are actually quite costly to do correctly because of the demand placed on the output transformer. In order to handle the DC current in the primary, the transformer must be big, air gapped, etc. SET transformer design requires even more complicated balancing of tradeoffs than pushpull transformer design. The better SET amps tend to be quite expensive.

 

It's time for a personal opinion. There is a reason why single-ended triodes--especially the 300B tube--have become the place where for so many seekers of the musical truth, their journey ends. I would add ditto for 2A3 and 845 tubes. Something about the sound from these devices is just wonderful when implemented well! 

 

Your actual question makes me think you wish to narrow down the search for that Holy Grail so as to focus your future efforts. I may be wrong. But if you are heading in that direction just find a way to listen to fellow music lovers' systems, or wherever you can get to these days to hear the 300B and 2A3 in action. Then you will know so much more instantly.

 

One listen to AudioNote/Airtight/Audion/Audio Research/Line Magnetic/Shindo/Cary/VTL/Supratek/Leben/Weston is worth a thousand words. [Any topology.]

 

If you are in Sydney I could show you the Line Magnetic SET 845 configuration to your satisfaction with some of your own music.

 

I hope this helps.

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Thank you Doogie, from your excerpt it does sound like tube type tends to have a general overall characteristic that can even cross the boundaries of implementation (SET vs PP). I currently have a 300b SET and I have been a little hesitant to try PP because I wasn't sure if the pleasant sound was in the 300b or the SET design.

 

My questions are really to understand if I might hear more of a difference in sound by just buying more expensive 300b tubes for my current amp, or possibly trying out other amps that take different tubes. Of course to make it fair the design and parts would have to be similar to know that it is really just the tubes that are changing the sound and not some other factor.

 

Line Magnetic has a 300b amp that can also be configured to be 2A3 as an example. This means that all the parts are exactly the same for both regardless of what you choose, and only the tube changes. So which might offer more of a change in sound, the difference between the 300b version and 2A3 version, or the 300b version with difference 300b tubes?

Edited by Midget
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1 hour ago, Midget said:

My questions are really to understand if I might hear more of a difference in sound by just buying more expensive 300b tubes for my current amp, or possibly trying out other amps that take different tubes. Of course to make it fair the design and parts would have to be similar to know that it is really just the tubes that are changing the sound and not some other factor.

Yes - you will hear a difference as internal constructions are different as are biasing points - for example, a 300BXLS versus a 300B. A 300B mesh plate versus non mesh plate.

1 hour ago, Midget said:

Line Magnetic has a 300b amp that can also be configured to be 2A3 as an example. This means that all the parts are exactly the same for both regardless of what you choose, and only the tube changes. So which might offer more of a change in sound, the difference between the 300b version and 2A3 version, or the 300b version with difference 300b tubes?

Not quite - a 2A3 runs at half the heater voltage compared to a 300B and operating points are different with lower plate voltage on the 2A3 as is the primary load on the OPT. Sound signatures will be different.

Edited by xlr8or
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Yes, that Line Magnetic amp you mentioned asks you to choose your tube alright.

 

When you say "more of a change in sound" I think you're asking theoretically about trying the 2A3 {or lashing out for a top 300B type, as you say).

 

This is like asking whether you would like a cabernet or a shiraz for a red wine choice; both would be OK in context. The real question to me is which you would prefer? You might have reached the limit of what people can suggest to you...having said that, I don't imagine you would be unhappy running 2A3s  if you have sensitive-enough speakers. All you are going to get here on the Forum at this juncture is what other people describe from their own listening. There are no iron-clad rules.

 

But--here goes (my 2c):

 

1. The pleasant sound of your system you mention is the sound of a SET + one of the most sympatico triodes ever made, the 300B. Other triodes have different 'flavours' but not necessarily better sound.

2. Push-pull can be really great

3. Only by listening to different topologies can you decide what suits you--ideally these are top class amps you choose to help you experience this.

4. Many members here have more than one kind of amplifier!! Here too you would need sensitive speakers if you move around the driving amp. 

5. Many members here have more than one system!

6. Many members here have heard the results of the systems in the homes of their friends or at showrooms. Live and learn.

7. It's a slippery slope (law of diminishing returns) to upgrade the bigger power tubes in an amp unless you are gaining a big improvement. If you are wealthy forget what I just wrote.

8. If your system is balanced well and sounds good you might get just as much 'improvement'/'difference in sound' by attending to your room acoustics, or favourite front end. Don't forget a good subwoofer; if you do have one, they can make real magic for a low-powered amplifier driven system.

 

I could go on but I'm sure you can see where I'm propelling you ?

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On 08/08/2020 at 6:55 PM, Midget said:

What makes more of a difference to the sound, differences between tube types, or differences between brand and quality within a tube type? Would one get more of a variety in sound owning an variety of 45/2A3/300b amps (provided the design is similar), or alternatively an amp you can tube roll different tube types, OR owning a variety of tubes with one amp? 

As has been alluded to by the other respondents this is not really an either or question.

 

The very first question to answer is if your amplifier/ valve of choice is suited to the speaker it is being asked to drive. That synergy is the most important question.  A 2A3 or 45 SET produces a tiny amount of power. It can only show what it is capable of with a tiny percentage of speakers. If your speakers can not be effectively driven by the available power then just about any more powerful valve amp will make a far greater change to the quality of sound than rolling in the greatest valves ever produced to an under powered amp. The speakers capable of being driven by a 45 SET have their own signatures and limitations. 

 

An SET 300B amp is good for about 8 Watts. That will still only effectively drive a very small percentage of speakers.  If your speakers are suited to that type of power and a very benign load then the audible differences in quality valves are very noticeable. However......often even greater changes to the perceived sound signature of the amplifier can be achieved by changing the input valve.  Has the personality of the 300B changed? No, but the personality of the amplifier has changed. 
 

As always it comes down first to the requirements of the speaker being driven.  Once those criteria are met then the valve/amp options available can be considered. Then the variables in the construction, implementation and valves will come into play.  Once the best candidate has risen to the top then valve rolling is worthwhile. 
 

There have definitely been comparisons between push pull 300B amps and Parallel Single Ended 300B amps by the same manufacturer. Those comparisons have always found the PP to have a little more bottom end control but the PSE to be a far more magical experience. I certainly found that to be true of Audion Silver Nights in those two differing implementations of basically identical amplifiers.

 

When owning Cary 805 Anniversary amplifiers I found the use of the 211 output valve far superior to an 845. For me it was far more detailed, taught and realistic. The 845 sounded a bit ‘wet’ in comparison.  I then headed down the 211 route till I ended up with Elrog 211’s.  I never however heard the equivalent Elrog 845, maybe my decision might have been different if I had. 
 

There are a million variables,  definitive answers are hard to quantify.  An amp with the correct underlying power / current abilities , quality of design,  build and synergy with the speaker being driven is what is required.  Answering all those questions keeps the classifieds full of gear.  

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Guest dr_carl

ditto @Ooogh I have just rolled my input tubes. Noticeable difference immediately. I currently have have an old Italian 6ns7GTA from 1950's in front of two brand new PSVANE UK-6ns7 drivers. Very nice result even though I'm told the PSVANEs take 300 hours to burn in...should be interesting to hear how they sound as time goes on.

 

I think of tubes as like signal processors - each has its own profile, similar to using a different filter in DSP. Instead of tweaking an algorithm we just swap out out a tube for another one - its a modular approach really. Mixing and matching will produce some interaction/combination of these signal modulations, each of which is unique, some of which will suit your system some won't. So you play around until you get something you like (make careful notes of what configuration got you there)...then try to resist tweaking any further....and fail....but at least if you didn't sell something you want to use again you can go back....

 

...its a hobby that has no endpoint while you still have your hearing.

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On 09/08/2020 at 5:53 PM, Midget said:

My questions are really to understand if I might hear more of a difference in sound by just buying more expensive 300b tubes for my current amp, or possibly trying out other amps that take different tubes. Of course to make it fair the design and parts would have to be similar to know that it is really just the tubes that are changing the sound and not some other factor.

There is nothing quite like hearing things yourself...

 

Of course when anyone is trying to describe how any particular output tube or circuit topology 'sounds', the elephant in the room is how you 'hear' these tubes – by them 'driving' a speaker and the synergy, or otherwise, of that relationship will more or less allow you to gauge sonic characteristics of the tubes or their implementation.  As others have said already, the permutations are almost immeasurable and endless.

 

So my question is what speakers are you driving with your 300B SET amp?

There may be no way a 2A3 will drive them to your satisfaction or allow you to compare performance of 300B to 2A3 or 45 etc etc...

Yet Paralleled or Push Pull 300B may provide more of what your speakers need to satisfy you.

 

As an example, my Voxativ field coil speakers are energised by a tube rectifier power supply (10 x GZ34 tubes per field coil) that allows me to adjust the DC voltage output and therefore the speaker's efficiency between 98-108dB. 

I drive them with amplifiers that have 2 paralleled 845 output tubes (Elrog ER845) per channel.  I can also run these amps (as I am right now while I am typing this) with one 845 tube per channel – albeit not optimally but it still allows me the opportunity to compare with its optimal configuration and there are virtues to both.  I have used 300B SET and I much prefer using the 845 amps I have now but I was fortunate to be able to compare 300B to 845 amps with my speakers.   I found the difference in performance between the 300B SET monoblocks and my 845 monoblocks in some ways as much of a contrast as I have experienced between different 845 tubes in my Absolare amps (Shuguang, Psvane and Elrog).  

 

Not sure this has helped you much.

 

Good luck – be open to all possibilities and take advantage of every opportunity to listen and trust your hearing – ultimately that is all you have to rely on.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Aperalim said:

There is nothing quite like hearing things yourself...

 

Of course when anyone is trying to describe how any particular output tube or circuit topology 'sounds', the elephant in the room is how you 'hear' these tubes – by them 'driving' a speaker and the synergy, or otherwise, of that relationship will more or less allow you to gauge sonic characteristics of the tubes or their implementation.  As others have said already, the permutations are almost immeasurable and endless.

 

So my question is what speakers are you driving with your 300B SET amp?

There may be no way a 2A3 will drive them to your satisfaction or allow you to compare performance of 300B to 2A3 or 45 etc etc...

Yet Paralleled or Push Pull 300B may provide more of what your speakers need to satisfy you.

 

As an example, my Voxativ field coil speakers are energised by a tube rectifier power supply (10 x GZ34 tubes per field coil) that allows me to adjust the DC voltage output and therefore the speaker's efficiency between 98-108dB. 

I drive them with amplifiers that have 2 paralleled 845 output tubes (Elrog ER845) per channel.  I can also run these amps (as I am right now while I am typing this) with one 845 tube per channel – albeit not optimally but it still allows me the opportunity to compare with its optimal configuration and there are virtues to both.  I have used 300B SET and I much prefer using the 845 amps I have now but I was fortunate to be able to compare 300B to 845 amps with my speakers.   I found the difference in performance between the 300B SET monoblocks and my 845 monoblocks in some ways as much of a contrast as I have experienced between different 845 tubes in my Absolare amps (Shuguang, Psvane and Elrog).  

 

Not sure this has helped you much.

 

Good luck – be open to all possibilities and take advantage of every opportunity to listen and trust your hearing – ultimately that is all you have to rely on.

 

 

 

Sage advice here....?

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