Upgrade from miniDSP 2X4 HD to SHD Studio in a DEQX based system?

[Satanica]

Hi, my somewhat complicated setup is as follows.

I have 3 way main speakers (original Legend Big Reds) which are actively controlled with a DEQX.

 

From the L and R bass outputs of the DEQX I send the 150Hz and below L and R signals to a miniDSP 2X4 HD.

I crossover in the miniDSP at 80Hz sending L bass to L Legend bass unit and R bass R Legend bass unit from 150Hz to 80Hz.

This comes out of the outputs 1 and 2 on my miniDSP.

Also in the miniDSP I send mono bass to two sub-woofers from 80Hz and below.

This comes out of outputs 3 and 4 on the miniDSP.

I EQ with the DEQX up till about 80Hz.

I don't do any EQ'ing with the miniDSP.

I do a little EQ'ing with JRiver Media Center (L and R) from about 80Hz to 250Hz.

JRiver Media Center is effectively my digital pre-amp where volume is applied (not in the DEQX).

Sorry if you're gotten this far and are already confused.

So, I'm considering swapping the miniDSP 2X4 HD with the all digital miniDSP SHD Studio and running it before my DEQX.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio

I would want the miniDSP SHD Studio to crossover from 80Hz and up and digitally send to my DEQX.
I would want the miniDSP SHD Studio to crossover from 80Hz and down and digitally send to a cheap DAC which would then send analog to my sub-woofers.
I would then want to use Dirac Live with the SHD Studio and probably no longer EQ with DEQX and JRiver Media Center.
Sound OK?

Edited August 6, 2020 by Satanica

[cazzesman]

@gibbo9000

 

Regards Cazzesman

[Irek]

what about that one? 

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-dac.html

[gibbo9000]

5 hours ago, Satanica said:

I would want the miniDSP SHD Studio to crossover from 80Hz and up and digitally send to my DEQX.
I would want the miniDSP SHD Studio to crossover from 80Hz and down and digitally send to a cheap DAC which would then send analog to my sub-woofers.
I would then want to use Dirac Live with the SHD Studio and probably no longer EQ with DEQX and JRiver Media Center.
Sound OK?

At first look that sounds OK and well suited to the SHD - Studio. 
Just to clarify - JRiver on PC  is your primary audio source and that would become a USB input to the SHD Studio, and any other inputs would also go into SHD?  Or would you use Volumio as Streamer in the SHD.? The SHD back-end would then use its X-Over to split the signal across its 2 digital outputs - one heading to DEQX and the other via DAC to your Subs?  If that is the case that is basically how I use it - Iwith Roon as main input.
The SHD manages the X-Over in its back-end (along with any time alignment of sub etc.) and lets you set up 4 'presets' if you want to play with different X-Over frequencies.  And each Preset in turn has its own Dirac optimisation across the full frequency range.

If I haven;t quite got it right perhaps draw a picture of current and proposed.  Not quite sure I understand the DEQX to Mains hook-up - is it still handling the 150Hz active X-Over for the mains?

Gibbo

 

 

[Satanica]

47 minutes ago, Irek said:

what about that one? 

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-dac.html

Not fit for purpose.

[frednork]

Should be ok, just make sure the latency on the DEqx is not longer than the delay available on the SHD studio.  Am sure you have considered but SHD would cut out need for dac but probably more exe.

[gibbo9000]

16 minutes ago, frednork said:

just make sure the latency on the DEqx is not longer than the delay available on the SHD studio

SHD -Studio is max 30ms delay.  Wasn't quite long enough for DSP on my mains that run at around 90ms.  But you can buy dedicated time wasters!   I used one of these to get around the problem:  https://www.blustream.co.uk/ad11au before I moved to an OpenDRC as DAC and up to 1000ms delay.

[AudioGeek]

Not an answer to your question, but I notice the Big Reds have pretty impressive bass output. Why not run them full range with your 2 subs like a swarm/dba setup. 4 bass sources under 80Hz with the 2 subs positioned around the room would correct a lot of bass issues. Would be easy to setup as well.

I say this as I have experimented and done similar with an lx521 system, but I only have 1 sub. 

[Satanica]

13 hours ago, gibbo9000 said:

At first look that sounds OK and well suited to the SHD - Studio. 
Just to clarify - JRiver on PC  is your primary audio source and that would become a USB input to the SHD Studio, and any other inputs would also go into SHD?  Or would you use Volumio as Streamer in the SHD.? The SHD back-end would then use its X-Over to split the signal across its 2 digital outputs - one heading to DEQX and the other via DAC to your Subs?  If that is the case that is basically how I use it - Iwith Roon as main input.
The SHD manages the X-Over in its back-end (along with any time alignment of sub etc.) and lets you set up 4 'presets' if you want to play with different X-Over frequencies.  And each Preset in turn has its own Dirac optimisation across the full frequency range.

If I haven;t quite got it right perhaps draw a picture of current and proposed.  Not quite sure I understand the DEQX to Mains hook-up - is it still handling the 150Hz active X-Over for the mains?

Gibbo

 

JRiver MC via my HTPC is my only source.

No I would not be going USB input to the SHD Studio but rather SPDIF.

Reason being and my system is even slightly more complicated I also have a Focusrite USB 6 channel interface for surround sound.

 

So it goes like:

HTPC\JRiver MC (USB) ---> Focusrite USB Interface (SPDIF) ---> DEQX ---> Speakers High
                                                                                                                                ---> Speakers Mid
                                                                                                                                ---> miniDSP 2X4 HD ---> Speakers Bass (80Hz High Pass)
                                                                                                                                                                       ---> 2 Subwoofers   (80Hz Low Pass)

 

And I think it could go like:

 

HTPC\JRiver MC (USB) ---> Focusrite USB Interface (SPDIF) ---> miniDSP SHD Studio (SPDIF - 80Hz High Pass) ---> DEQX ---> Speakers High
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             ---> Speakers Mid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             ---> Speakers Bass
                                                                                                                                                           (SPDIF - 80Hz Low  Pass) ---> DAC    ---> 2 Subwoofers

 

Thanks for the info regarding the 4 presets each with a different Dirac Live optimisation which makes the SHD Studio even more attractive.

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Satanica

[Satanica]

11 hours ago, frednork said:

Should be ok, just make sure the latency on the DEqx is not longer than the delay available on the SHD studio.  Am sure you have considered but SHD would cut out need for dac but probably more exe.

I actually didn't consider it when I first posted this topic and only just remembered about delay just before reading your reply.

So you were onto it quicker than me!

I believe the latency on the DEQX is quite low.

From memory it is typically is less than 10ms.

 

10 hours ago, gibbo9000 said:

SHD -Studio is max 30ms delay.  Wasn't quite long enough for DSP on my mains that run at around 90ms.  But you can buy dedicated time wasters!   I used one of these to get around the problem:  https://www.blustream.co.uk/ad11au before I moved to an OpenDRC as DAC and up to 1000ms delay.

Thanks, I think 30ms would cover it but I really should find out from DEQX how much delay is typically introduced with a 3 way crossover.

[Satanica]

3 hours ago, AudioGeek said:

Not an answer to your question, but I notice the Big Reds have pretty impressive bass output. Why not run them full range with your 2 subs like a swarm/dba setup. 4 bass sources under 80Hz with the 2 subs positioned around the room would correct a lot of bass issues. Would be easy to setup as well.

I say this as I have experimented and done similar with an lx521 system, but I only have 1 sub. 

Yeah I ran them full range when I didn't have sub-woofers.

Then I ran them full range with two sub-woofers.

The two sub-woofers are positioned Front\Back as per Harmon whitepaper.

 

 

Then I decided to high pass them because of what I think are the advantages of high passing the bass modules of my mains:

 

Sum bass under 80Hz electrically rather than acoustically in the room.

Less bass under 80Hz should be reflected off the corners of the room.

Relieves the mains (Legend Big Reds) bass modules of low bass.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Satanica

[AudioGeek]

Makes sense, sounds like you allready have an awesome setup

[gibbo9000]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

And I think it could go like:

 

HTPC\JRiver MC (USB) ---> Focusrite USB Interface (SPDIF) ---> miniDSP SHD Studio (SPDIF - 80Hz High Pass) ---> DEQX ---> Speakers High
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             ---> Speakers Mid
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             ---> Speakers Bass
                                                                                                                                                           (SPDIF - 80Hz Low  Pass) ---> DAC    ---> 2 Subwoofers

The SHD-Studio would handle that fine and provide you Dirac Live optimisation over the full range if you needed it.

[Satanica]

1 minute ago, gibbo9000 said:

The SHD-Studio would handle that fine and provide you Dirac Live optimisation over the full range if you needed it.

That's pretty much the crux of why it think it could be worthwhile.

While DEQX is probably as good as anything as an up to 3-way digital crossover it IMO lacks at sub-woofer integration and room correction in general as it cannot room correct EQ per channel but rather globally (same room correction EQ applies to both L and R channels).

I think I could potentially add another DEQX in a master\slave configuration and from memory @almikel does exactly this.

But I would still only have DEQX's seemingly inferior compared to today's standard of room correction (Dirac Live) and compared to the SHD Studio this is a much more costly option.

Especially in my case as my current HDP-3 also has 4 Hypex amplifiers in it for my mains and this unit could only be used as a slave making the mentioned 4 Hypex amplifiers useless.

[Sinewave]

I agree the DEQX is an excellent choice.

 

My setup is similar and therefore I have faced the same challenges as you have.

 

 I am using some old pro crossover/equalizers (Dolby Lake Contours) in 4 way active, and although they are difficult to use the results have been spectacular.
 

 

[Sinewave]

 

21 hours ago, Satanica said:

Hi, my somewhat complicated setup is as follows.

I have 3 way main speakers (original Legend Big Reds) which are actively controlled with a DEQX.

 

From the L and R bass outputs of the DEQX I send the 150Hz and below L and R signals to a miniDSP 2X4 HD.

I crossover in the miniDSP at 80Hz sending L bass to L Legend bass unit and R bass R Legend bass unit from 150Hz to 80Hz.

This comes out of the outputs 1 and 2 on my miniDSP.

Also in the miniDSP I send mono bass to two sub-woofers from 80Hz and below.

This comes out of outputs 3 and 4 on the miniDSP.

I EQ with the DEQX up till about 80Hz.

I don't do any EQ'ing with the miniDSP.

I do a little EQ'ing with JRiver Media Center (L and R) from about 80Hz to 250Hz.

JRiver Media Center is effectively my digital pre-amp where volume is applied (not in the DEQX).

Sorry if you're gotten this far and are already confused.

So, I'm considering swapping the miniDSP 2X4 HD with the all digital miniDSP SHD Studio and running it before my DEQX.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-studio

I would want the miniDSP SHD Studio to crossover from 80Hz and up and digitally send to my DEQX.
I would want the miniDSP SHD Studio to crossover from 80Hz and down and digitally send to a cheap DAC which would then send analog to my sub-woofers.
I would then want to use Dirac Live with the SHD Studio and probably no longer EQ with DEQX and JRiver Media Center.
Sound OK?

Wow that is a super interesting way to send signal to your subs. I wouldn’t have thought of that and I spend hours a day thinking of convoluted signal paths

Edited August 7, 2020 by Sinewave

[Satanica]

1 hour ago, Sinewave said:

Wow that is a super interesting way to send signal to your subs. I wouldn’t have thought of that and I spend hours a day thinking of convoluted signal paths

Haha, well thank you, I think.

 

My system gets used as much for HT as music and I've found what I currently have an OK way for the two.

For HT, I mix the LFE (.1) channel into the L and R channels with my PC software player (JRiver MC) and then effectively move it to the sub-woofers with the miniDSP (80Hz crossover).

Edited August 7, 2020 by Satanica

[davewantsmoore]

22 hours ago, Satanica said:

Sound OK?

Yes

 

As long as the above mentioned latency issues are OK.    ie. as long as the DEQX is not introducing more latency than the SHD can compensate for.

 

 

If that was an issue.... You could work around it by removing the phase linearisation from DEQX (assuming it is doing that now), and doing it in Dirac Live instead  ..... however there's a number of "you'll need to know what you are doing" caveats to that.

Edited August 7, 2020 by davewantsmoore

[Sinewave]

32 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Haha, well thank you, I think.

 

My system gets used as much for HT as music and I've found what I currently have am OK way for the two.

For HT, I mix the LFE (.1) channel into the L and R channels with my PC software player (JRiver MC) and then effectively move it to the sub-woofers with the miniDSP (80Hz crossover).

Right. So by playing video through JRiver you negate the latency issue with the DEQX- the sole reason I don’t have one. 
 

I too have JRiver, and use is as An audio player and FIR convolution engine, but use an Oppo 205 as video source so can’t have that processing delay to my mains.
 

The volume being done in the player is smart (and excellent imo) I use my phone to control JRiver from my listening position. 

[Satanica]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

If that was an issue.... You could work around it by removing the phase linearisation from DEQX (assuming it is doing that now), and doing it in Dirac Live instead  ..... however there's a number of "you'll need to know what you are doing" caveats to that.

Thanks for the chime in Dave and I was hoping you would.

I'm a bit intimidated by your work around so I'm thinking it's plan A or bust.

And plan A is the phase linear DEQX setup out of the box for the Legend Big Reds has to be quick enough.

Although @gibbo9000 suggested a device that could be used to delay the subs.

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Satanica

[Satanica]

54 minutes ago, Sinewave said:

Right. So by playing video through JRiver you negate the latency issue with the DEQX- the sole reason I don’t have one. 
 

I too have JRiver, and use is as An audio player and FIR convolution engine, but use an Oppo 205 as video source so can’t have that processing delay to my mains.

The processing delay induced by the DEQX with Linear Phase crossovers is relatively very quick as far as I know.

And most if not all TVs and projectors can do so much video processing these days that they introduce video delay by considerably more, I think.

From memory, in JRiver I delay audio by about 250ms when playing video for my JVC X7000 projector to catch up.

I'm not 100% sure but I'm thinking you would be most likely fine with the amount of delay a Linear Phase crossover from DEQX would introduce.

DEQX or no DEQX have you considered playing video from your PC\JRiver instead of your Oppo for what I presume is mostly blu-ray discs?

If you did you could potentially use madVR (need a GPU with a bit of grunt) which is known as some of the best video processing available.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Satanica

[Sinewave]

MadVR is a great suggestion. I really must try it. 
 

my speakers have their crossovers removed entirely so I can *only* play them with a Lake (or 2 in 4 way as I use one for each channel) or my Prism Orpheus. 

I only play blue rays on my projector so that’s why I have the Oppo, and also it’s one of my favorite components. JRiver - usb to Oppo, XLR out into the lakes, then into my triple stack Hypex setup. With volume in Oppo or JRiver.  

[Satanica]

3 hours ago, Sinewave said:

MadVR is a great suggestion. I really must try it. 
 

my speakers have their crossovers removed entirely so I can *only* play them with a Lake (or 2 in 4 way as I use one for each channel) or my Prism Orpheus. 

I only play blue rays on my projector so that’s why I have the Oppo, and also it’s one of my favorite components. JRiver - usb to Oppo, XLR out into the lakes, then into my triple stack Hypex setup. With volume in Oppo or JRiver.  

To play a blu-rays through JRiver you'll need software to decrypt discs first and there is none better than AnyDVD HD (https://www.redfox.bz/en/anydvdhd.html).

 

I recommend creating at least a second zone in JRiver so there is one for Audio and one for Video.

[davewantsmoore]

17 hours ago, Satanica said:

The processing delay induced by the DEQX with Linear Phase crossovers is relatively very quick as far as I know.

Yes, that is what I would expect.

They use a "special technique" to minimise the latency.

[Irek]

It looks like Andy has similar plans. 

 

" Mine is to replace my miniDSP 10x10HD.  Currently, I run this in 2x8 mode, so:

• digital in
• 8x analogue channels out (sub / bass / mid / ribbon, either side)
• at 96kHz

with:

• a nanoDIGI 2x8 (digital in & 4x digital out), running at 96kHz
• plus 4x Topping E30 DACs - to give me my 8x analogue channels out.

What this does is give me better output DACs than are used in the miniDSP 10x10HD.

 

Andy "