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Vandersteen - Owners & Discussion Thread


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All I'd add here is that I used the DacMagic at one stage and substituted it for a Rega DAC to restore some meat to the bones.  It's a reasonably incisive DAC but (in my experience) bright, lean and brittle at high volumes.  I'd suggest trying an alternative, it should help.

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8 minutes ago, ullodea said:

All I'd add here is that I used the DacMagic at one stage and substituted it for a Rega DAC to restore some meat to the bones.  It's a reasonably incisive DAC but (in my experience) bright, lean and brittle at high volumes.  I'd suggest trying an alternative, it should help.

true but would be the same issue with original speakers if the DAC were the issue with new speakers

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Maybe just run with the balance control set hard left, listen to each driver up close, make sure there is output. Then do the same with the balance control set hard right and listen to the other speaker the same way. (Disconnect source L or R input if you have no balance control.)

That should rule out a damaged or defective driver, or wiring issues from transport.

 

Swap the Red and Black connections at one speaker only (in case there was a wiring error internally during the repair).

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4 hours ago, silencer13 said:

I'm just curious - how did you detect that the courier damaged the tweeter? It's not visible through the sock.

 

There was damage to the shipping box and clear evidence one of the units had been dropped. One of the thin and fragile wires within the tweeter snapped, as I understand. I'm not sure I'm able to explain any better than that, apologies. 

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I'm not sure that speaker out of phase has been completely ruled out.

Can you try running one set of cable connected "incorrectly" (red to black, black to red) and one set connected correctly (red to red, black to black)?

That way if one of your speakers is wired out of phase internally you'll be able to hear.

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From further tests today and after discussing with the speaker repairer:

- I don't believe a bass driver has failed. I can hear both separately, it's just bass is very light. I've tried reversing polarity of repaired unit (which resulted in a distinctly awful sound) and also the balance checks as suggested, which didn't really reveal much. Certainly both speakers are functioning. 

- Boyd from Total Recoil was using what he believes at the time was a Marantz PM-54, which has 10WPC more than the Moon I own. Crucially, he said he thinks the Vandersteens have rather weak bass, and that I should use the tone adjustments on my amp to adjust the bass until I reach a level that suits. He said he would've had the bass adjusted on the amp while listening to and subsequently demoing my speakers. 

 

So, in my mind this makes the amp something of a culprit, probably in conjunction with the poorly treated room that is my lounge. Would adding an EQ be a cheap and cheerful fix? Could I test this theory by making EQ adjustments with software on my laptop? If so, what program would be suitable? Failing that and provided I could sell my Moon (I'm currently in stage 4 Melbourne lockdown) what would be suitable alternate amplification? I'm open to the idea of a pre/power combination, and the simpler the better in terms of features. 

 

I apologise for the bombardment of questions and appreciate everyone's help thus far and going forward!

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3 minutes ago, hazzac181 said:

Boyd from Total Recoil was using what he believes at the time was a Marantz PM-54, which has 10WPC more than the Moon I own

10w will make bugger all difference

 

I notice the Marantz has tone controls though, so maybe they bumped the bass up that way?

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2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

10w will make bugger all difference

 

I notice the Marantz has tone controls though, so maybe they bumped the bass up that way?

That is what he said he did, yes. Hence my subsequent questions regarding an EQ etc.  

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8 minutes ago, hazzac181 said:

- Boyd from Total Recoil was using what he believes at the time was a Marantz PM-54, which has 10WPC more than the Moon I own. Crucially, he said he thinks the Vandersteens have rather weak bass, and that I should use the tone adjustments on my amp to adjust the bass until I reach a level that suits. He said he would've had the bass adjusted on the amp while listening to and subsequently demoing my speakers. 

 

So, in my mind this makes the amp something of a culprit, probably in conjunction with the poorly treated room that is my lounge. Would adding an EQ be a cheap and cheerful fix? Could I test this theory by making EQ adjustments with software on my laptop? If so, what program would be suitable? Failing that and provided I could sell my Moon (I'm currently in stage 4 Melbourne lockdown) what would be suitable alternate amplification? I'm open to the idea of a pre/power combination, and the simpler the better in terms of features.

My guess is the woofer is really difficult to drive with dips in impedance and extreme phase angles. Turning the bass up with equalisation is unlikely to fix this at loud volumes as the amp will just fall over - only a higher current power amplifier would. Knowing your budget will help aid a suggestion for amplification.

Edited by Ittaku
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1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

My guess is the woofer is really difficult to drive with dips in impedance and extreme phase angles. Turning the bass up with equalisation is unlikely to fix this at loud volumes as the amp will just fall over - only a higher current power amplifier would. Knowing your budget will help aid a suggestion for amplification.

Ah, that would've been pertinent to add. Apologies. I bought the Moon probably around a month ago. If I were to sell it for approximately what I purchased it for ($1100), I could see myself adding another couple hundred for the right unit. So around $1500, but preferably less. 

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4 minutes ago, hazzac181 said:

Ah, that would've been pertinent to add. Apologies. I bought the Moon probably around a month ago. If I were to sell it for approximately what I purchased it for ($1100), I could see myself adding another couple hundred for the right unit. So around $1500, but preferably less. 

As much as I'd be happy to start making recommendations, you're still jumping the gun a little and assuming I'm correct in my assumption that you're running out of current with your current amplification as the fault. I'd like to believe that I'm right but jumping into another purchase without trialling would not be ideal. See if you can get an existing hifi store to lend you an amplifier to try out even in the current climate. It is possible that you may not find amplification suited to those speakers in your price point. Unfortunately as much as I scoured the internet I was unable to see accurate measurements on the speakers to know for sure that's the issue.

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10 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

As much as I'd be happy to start making recommendations, you're still jumping the gun a little and assuming I'm correct in my assumption that you're running out of current with your current amplification as the fault. I'd like to believe that I'm right but jumping into another purchase without trialling would not be ideal. See if you can get an existing hifi store to lend you an amplifier to try out even in the current climate. It is possible that you may not find amplification suited to those speakers in your price point. Unfortunately as much as I scoured the internet I was unable to see accurate measurements on the speakers to know for sure that's the issue.

A quick browse suggest something like this might fit your bill and in your price point. It also has tone controls too in case it's more than just extra power and current you need. (This is a blind recommendation, I've not heard it so cannot say for sure it will be great).

 

https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/yamaha-a-s701-2-channel-stereo-amplifier/

Edited by Ittaku
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19 hours ago, hazzac181 said:

Valid point. I'd however raise a few counterpoints:

a) this amp can power my old speakers (of unknown origin/brand, image attached) to much louder volumes without any clipping. 

It's clear just by looking at those speakers that they are dramatically higher sensitviity than your vandersteen

18 hours ago, hazzac181 said:

Thanks for the comment. I have a question (my apologies if they are uneducated): given the old speakers have a higher number of drivers and have larger drivers, how exactly are they more efficient?

Larger speakers (in general) take less power to drive to the same SPL as smaller speakers.

Quote

Could I test this theory by making EQ adjustments with software on my laptop? 

Yes.

You could install the software player VLC, and use its equaliser (or most other players have this feature too).

Edited by davewantsmoore
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19 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

As much as I'd be happy to start making recommendations, you're still jumping the gun a little and assuming I'm correct in my assumption

I've not seen a chart, but the website quotes

Quote

6.8 ohms +/- 2 ohms

... so I don't think you are right.

 

... but I would go with your suggestion to try a differerent amp, and a different room, to see.

 

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1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said:

I've not seen a chart, but the website quotes

... so I don't think you are right.

I did read the 6.8 +/- 2 ohms but I've not seen independent measures, nor have any idea about phase angles.

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19 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

A quick browse suggest something like this might fit your bill and in your price point. It also has tone controls too in case it's more than just extra power and current you need. (This is a blind recommendation, I've not heard it so cannot say for sure it will be great).

 

https://lifestylestore.com.au/product/yamaha-a-s701-2-channel-stereo-amplifier/

Thanks. I'll investigate an alternate amp. I don't exactly want to dive into a new amp only to remain unsatisfied. Unfortunately all retail outlets are closed and I can't go outside a 5km radius of my home – severely limiting my options for the next 6 weeks.

 

It's worth noting that the Moon was purchased used, and I am happy to continue purchasing used, which should mean I am able to find something suitable eventually. 

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1 minute ago, hazzac181 said:

It's worth noting that the Moon was purchased used, and I am happy to continue purchasing used, which should mean I am able to find something suitable eventually. 

Well that increases your options then, should you pursue a different amplifier, as it increases the number of affordable amps. Musical Fidelity have a reputation for relatively high current amplification in their price point for example.

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11 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

 I've not seen independent measuress

I doubt vandersteen lied about it (as it's trivial to confirm).

Quote

nor have any idea about phase angles.

Phase angle of the impedance is a direct representation of the slope of the impedance magnitude..... so if it's only going up/down by 2ohm, the slope is low.

8 minutes ago, hazzac181 said:

severely limiting my options for the next 6 weeks.

Try them in a different room (eg. a bedroom) .... just for 5 minutes .... this will tell you pretty quick if the room is a significant issue.

 

Until then you are flying blind IMVHO.

Edited by davewantsmoore
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12 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Try them in a different room (eg. a bedroom) .... just for 5 minutes .... this will tell you pretty quick if the room is a significant issue.

 

Until then you are flying blind IMVHO.

They have been set up in my bedroom. Performance is the same - hence why I'm leaning somewhat into amplification options. Apologies for not making this known. There is slightly more bass if they are set up in a corner. Thanks for the suggestion

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15 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I doubt vandersteen lied about it (as it's trivial to confirm).

Phase angle of the impedance is a direct representation of the slope of the impedance magnitude..... so if it's only going up/down by 2ohm, the slope is low.

4 ohm coverage on a 6.8 ohm speaker. And again, it may not be lying so much as a "standard deviation" type representation which really doesn't describe the lowest impedance. I've seen many manufacturers whose measurements match their claims, but unfortunately many that don't. Given the trouble he's describing, and the way he's describing it, my money is still on them being too difficult to drive loud with his amp.

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1 hour ago, hazzac181 said:

From further tests today and after discussing with the speaker repairer:

- I don't believe a bass driver has failed. I can hear both separately, it's just bass is very light. I've tried reversing polarity of repaired unit (which resulted in a distinctly awful sound) and also the balance checks as suggested, which didn't really reveal much. Certainly both speakers are functioning. 

- Boyd from Total Recoil was using what he believes at the time was a Marantz PM-54, which has 10WPC more than the Moon I own. Crucially, he said he thinks the Vandersteens have rather weak bass, and that I should use the tone adjustments on my amp to adjust the bass until I reach a level that suits. He said he would've had the bass adjusted on the amp while listening to and subsequently demoing my speakers. 

 

So, in my mind this makes the amp something of a culprit, probably in conjunction with the poorly treated room that is my lounge. Would adding an EQ be a cheap and cheerful fix? Could I test this theory by making EQ adjustments with software on my laptop? If so, what program would be suitable? Failing that and provided I could sell my Moon (I'm currently in stage 4 Melbourne lockdown) what would be suitable alternate amplification? I'm open to the idea of a pre/power combination, and the simpler the better in terms of features. 

 

I apologise for the bombardment of questions and appreciate everyone's help thus far and going forward!

I've not owned Vandy's but had a 'few' amps and speakers along the years. (and seen/had some issues). I'll go along with the comments of probably your amp is 'running out  of juice'. The Moon is a reputable amp. But to try and put hopefully some understanding.  (firstly I'm tube amp aficionado, but don't hold that against me lol) Many (home stereo usually) manufacturers 'bump up' power rating. PMP (peak music power) or the USA often rate at double what an English manufacturer would. Two 'classic' integrated amps I owned Radford and Leak, although giving their rated watts, the Leak stereo 60 had a 'just enough' mains transformer which were known to struggle, whereas the Radford would give a full 100watts to both channels, driven with a 'dual tone signal' without struggling.  It's quite possible that your amp when headroom (spare power available for transients/current) is needed are just not giving the Vandy's 'enough'.

 The one other possible which I have just seen a friend (and my tech) have to deal with, is  'the room'. He a year or so back 'upgraded' to a pair of IMF TLS80 speakers. He totally lost all the bass from his system (TLS80's are KNOWN for good bass response). After much researching, cursing, etc, he employed the help of a friend who is a sound engineer.  Crazy, really but, Room dimensions, ceiling height, driver position in the speaker, stairwell, other rooms connecting (open plan) the room simply sucked out (cancelled out) the bass on the IMF's. He had to instal some 'panels' on the ceiling between the wooden beams and on the walls, to alter this effect.

 you mentioned a 'bad room' for positioning, it could be a combination??? (amp/room)

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33 minutes ago, Graywulf said:

I've not owned Vandy's but had a 'few' amps and speakers along the years. (and seen/had some issues). I'll go along with the comments of probably your amp is 'running out  of juice'. The Moon is a reputable amp. But to try and put hopefully some understanding.  (firstly I'm tube amp aficionado, but don't hold that against me lol) Many (home stereo usually) manufacturers 'bump up' power rating. PMP (peak music power) or the USA often rate at double what an English manufacturer would. Two 'classic' integrated amps I owned Radford and Leak, although giving their rated watts, the Leak stereo 60 had a 'just enough' mains transformer which were known to struggle, whereas the Radford would give a full 100watts to both channels, driven with a 'dual tone signal' without struggling.  It's quite possible that your amp when headroom (spare power available for transients/current) is needed are just not giving the Vandy's 'enough'.

 The one other possible which I have just seen a friend (and my tech) have to deal with, is  'the room'. He a year or so back 'upgraded' to a pair of IMF TLS80 speakers. He totally lost all the bass from his system (TLS80's are KNOWN for good bass response). After much researching, cursing, etc, he employed the help of a friend who is a sound engineer.  Crazy, really but, Room dimensions, ceiling height, driver position in the speaker, stairwell, other rooms connecting (open plan) the room simply sucked out (cancelled out) the bass on the IMF's. He had to instal some 'panels' on the ceiling between the wooden beams and on the walls, to alter this effect.

 you mentioned a 'bad room' for positioning, it could be a combination??? (amp/room)

Thanks for this insightful comment. I would suggest that the amp/room combination is poor. I'm really struggling to think of anything else that could be the case. 

 

I'd like to raise a couple of points to further the discussion. The Moon in question (I've read) had the largest-in-class transformer in one of the reviews I read. It also didn't clip at until ~64wpc, despite being rated at 50w (perhaps the same review, perhaps another). At the end of the day, if it doesn't drive the vandy's, it doesn't drive them. 

 

Now to try and source a suitable amp to borrow in the midst of stage 4 restrictions...

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17 hours ago, Ittaku said:

4 ohm coverage on a 6.8 ohm speaker. And again, it may not be lying so much as a "standard deviation" type representation which really doesn't describe the lowest impedance.

If 4.0 ohm isn't the minimum impedance... then they lied.

In a speaker with any reasonable QC it's not going to vary by more than a couple of %

17 hours ago, Ittaku said:

my money is still on them being too difficult to drive loud with his amp.

I suspect, old, tired, and the person who repaired them turned up the bass to make them sound right (all but stated by that person accroding to a previous post).

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