hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, Telecine said: Can you provide a photo of the back of the amp showing your connections. Sure. First image of the left output, second is of the right. Channels are not reversed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiiiii Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 Have you tried playing with the knob on the speaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) Some pertinent further observations: – the speakers are lovely, albeit slightly light on the low end at quiet/moderate levels. They just start getting harsh at louder volumes. – my subwoofer sounds much better when set to 180° phase. I hadn't tried this previously. Speakers sound lacking in the low end without the subwoofer for my tastes (post-punk, shoegaze, alt rock, deep house etc) Edited August 6, 2020 by hazzac181 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cardiiiii said: Have you tried playing with the knob on the speaker? The tweeter contour? Yes, I've lowered it by 1db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Some pertinent further observations: – the speakers are lovely at quiet/moderate levels. They just start getting harsh at louder volumes. Classic subtle clipping. I'm going out on a limb and saying your amplifier doesn't have enough power and/or current. It's rated at 50W into 8 ohms but power doesn't tell you everything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Classic subtle clipping. I'm going out on a limb and saying your amplifier doesn't have enough power and/or current. It's rated at 50W into 8 ohms but power doesn't tell you everything. Valid point. I'd however raise a few counterpoints: a) this amp can power my old speakers (of unknown origin/brand, image attached) to much louder volumes without any clipping. b) Vandersteen recommend amps from 20-100WPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telecine Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 17 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Some pertinent further observations: – the speakers are lovely, albeit slightly light on the low end at quiet/moderate levels. They just start getting harsh at louder volumes. – my subwoofer sounds much better when set to 180° phase. I hadn't tried this previously. Speakers sound lacking in the low end without the subwoofer for my tastes (post-punk, shoegaze, alt rock, deep house etc) I see that you have a turntable, how does it sound with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Telecine said: I see that you have a turntable, how does it sound with that? Turntable is nothing to write home about. Pro-Ject Essential II through a NAD PP-2e phono stage. Listening now. Same sound signature, if that's an appropriate term. Lacking in bass, very clear up high but becomes tiring with volume. Perhaps this speaker/amp combination is simply not to taste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenticularis Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 46 minutes ago, Topman_Chief said: I think the question was focused on whether it was your dac/amp/cables in the repairer store, or theirs. If it was theirs, then there is a chance it is something further up your chain than the cables and speakers. Exactly what I meant. @hazzac181 disregard that if in fact you used the same equipment in both store and home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telecine Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Turntable is nothing to write home about. Pro-Ject Essential II through a NAD PP-2e phono stage. Listening now. Same sound signature, if that's an appropriate term. Lacking in bass, very clear up high but becomes tiring with volume. Perhaps this speaker/amp combination is simply not to taste? It is starting to sound that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Perhaps this speaker/amp combination is simply not to taste? Couple of thing here now. One is the previous speakers look like efficent Big Bangers. The type of music you listen to should be a testiment to this. (Nothing wrong with the music, just saying) You have picked a new speaker which cannot deliver the sound you had before and you are clipping the amp trying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 was the tweeter repaired ? or replaced? anything else done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Wimbo said: Couple of thing here now. One is the previous speakers look like efficent Big Bangers. The type of music you listen to should be a testiment to this. (Nothing wrong with the music, just saying) You have picked a new speaker which cannot deliver the sound you had before and you are clipping the amp trying. Thanks for the comment. I have a question (my apologies if they are uneducated): given the old speakers have a higher number of drivers and have larger drivers, how exactly are they more efficient? Are you saying they are easier to drive? The Vandersteen's are 6.X ohm, which would give me more than the 50w at 8ohm my speaker is rated at, would it not? Perhaps I have my terms muddled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 1 minute ago, frednork said: was the tweeter repaired ? or replaced? anything else done? Repaired. No other work conducted. I believe it was wiring related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) Size, brand, and number of drivers is absolutely no indication of speaker efficiency. If anything, more expensive speakers are often less efficient, harder to drive, and more power and current hungry. Without getting accurate measurements on both the amp and speakers there's no way to know. Only trying a higher current and or power amplifier will tell you. Edited August 6, 2020 by Ittaku 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 53 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Thanks for the comment. I have a question (my apologies if they are uneducated): given the old speakers have a higher number of drivers and have larger drivers, how exactly are they more efficient? Are you saying they are easier to drive? The Vandersteen's are 6.X ohm, which would give me more than the 50w at 8ohm my speaker is rated at, would it not? Perhaps I have my terms muddled. More drivers doesnt mean less efficient. The speaker as a whole is what is described as efficient and not efficient or sensitive. Yes, my guess is they are easier to drive louder with more bass or what seems like more bass. Also, in a lot of cases, the smaller the speaker,the less loud they will go for the same power input. If you have a 95db sensitive speaker that needs 20 watts to reach a specific loudness, an 85 db sensitive speaker will need 200 watts to reach the same loudness level. loudness doubles in multiples of 10. Hence I believe your earlier speakers were the types of speaker that suited you. What you need to do is either get a more power amplifier, a lot more, or get speakers like JBL, Altecs, Klipsch etc to perform well with your amp and the music you like to listen too. 95db sensitive or so. This is IMO of course 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangzie Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) Room or amp. Amp honestly looks like the less likely of the 2 (50 watts for what appear to be 90dp speakers that according to spec don't dip below 4.8 ohms), however is the easiest to test, if you know anyone nearby that could loan you an alternative, and depending on music, room and preferred listening level could turn out to be the issue. Room might be harder overall. Someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to provide advice Other thing to check: accidents happen, maybe the repair had an issue? There are simple phase checks that can be tried online Edited August 6, 2020 by Fangzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 can also double check phase by connecting to a battery (aa is fine) neg terminal on speaker to neg on battery and pos to pos. woofer should stick out when battery applied, if it goes in then phase reversed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Wimbo said: More drivers doesnt mean less efficient. The speaker as a whole is what is described as efficient and not efficient or sensitive. Yes, my guess is they are easier to drive louder with more bass or what seems like more bass. Also, in a lot of cases, the smaller the speaker,the less loud they will go for the same power input. If you have a 95db sensitive speaker that needs 20 watts to reach a specific loudness, an 85 db sensitive speaker will need 200 watts to reach the same loudness level. loudness doubles in multiples of 10. Hence I believe your earlier speakers were the types of speaker that suited you. What you need to do is either get a more power amplifier, a lot more, or get speakers like JBL, Altecs, Klipsch etc to perform well with your amp and the music you like to listen too. 95db sensitive or so. This is IMO of course Very helpful insight. Thank you. I thought 90db sensitivity (as the Vandersteens are) would've been easy enough to drive with my current amp, but I guess I misjudged. Bit of a lesson for me, I'll sell them and move on to a more suitable product (with a bit more research this time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 32 minutes ago, Fangzie said: Room or amp. Amp honestly looks like the less likely of the 2 (50 watts for what appear to be 90dp speakers that according to spec don't dip below 4.8 ohms), however is the easiest to test, if you know anyone nearby that could loan you an alternative, and depending on music, room and preferred listening level could turn out to be the issue. Room might be harder overall. Someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to provide advice Other thing to check: accidents happen, maybe the repair had an issue? There are simple phase checks that can be tried online I suspect room and amp in combination (for my listening tastes). Unfortunately I daresay I wouldn't be able to borrow an alternate amp. Thanks for the comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 17 minutes ago, frednork said: can also double check phase by connecting to a battery (aa is fine) neg terminal on speaker to neg on battery and pos to pos. woofer should stick out when battery applied, if it goes in then phase reversed Thanks. Unfortunately due to the design of the Vandersteens I can't see the driver nor remove the fabric 'sock' surrounding them. I'll look into finding a bright enough light source to allow me to see through the fabric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
075Congo Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 It would be interesting to send a question re your situation to the Vandersteen website and see what Richard has to say. I had a blown bass driver in my Vandersteen 3A's and got a reply fairly quickly from the man himself. Getting at the driver itself is really fiddly but not impossible. Cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silencer13 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 I have owned both the Vandersteen 2ce Signature and the 1c, and I've never had any problems with the lower frequencies. Even with a modest amp (Audiolab 8000S, Creek 4040), they never failed to provide me plenty of bass slam and gorgeous mids. For the price, they are fantastic speakers. I'm just curious - how did you detect that the courier damaged the tweeter? It's not visible through the sock. Is it possible that the internal wiring has been damaged when it was transported back from repair? Vandersteen uses a very inflexible solid core wire from the connector to the crossover, could it have somehow been jerked out of it's soldering? At this point, my only suggestion would be to bring the whole setup (including amp and cables) back to the shop that repaired it to double check where the problem lies. Or if you're up for some testing, you can try this simple test: Try connecting just 1 speaker to the left channel of the amp, play a track and listen (just 1 speaker, the other should not be connected at all). Then connect the other speaker to the same left amp channel and listen to the same track. If they are working properly, both sides should sound the same. If 1 side sounds softer, then that speaker has a problem. Best of luck! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blybo Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 13 hours ago, hazzac181 said: I have a question (my apologies if they are uneducated): given the old speakers have a higher number of drivers and have larger drivers, how exactly are they more efficient? Are you saying they are easier to drive? The Vandersteen's are 6.X ohm, which would give me more than the 50w at 8ohm my speaker is rated at, would it not? Perhaps I have my terms muddled. Back in the day (pre 80's) we didn't have many affordable high power amps, so older speaker designs were generally quite efficient and easy to drive. See if you can borrow a bigger amp and see if you are lacking power. Moon amps have plenty of punch for their power rating though. I have a 50wpc Moon integrated that can drive my efficient speakers well over 100db, but room effects take over in my bright room and no matter what speakers or amps I've had through the room, it can't tolerate much more than 90dba before becoming harsh. Could you simply have your listening position in a null or need more room treatment? In my room I hear far more bass 1m behind my seating position, however that is a walkway, so not a feasible permanent seating position. I've only heard 1 pair of Vandersteen speakers in a mega $$$ system and they were far too bright and detailed for my liking even though I like Focal speakers which many call too bright and harsh. That system had possibly the best bass I've ever heard, but then again just his cabling was worth more than my entire system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunno77 Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 17 hours ago, hazzac181 said: Unfortunately the Vandersteen units arrived damaged by courier, with one of the tweeters having to be repaired. Listening to them in the shop after repair impressed me greatly - the sound produced was crisp and balanced to my ears. Don't give up on them yet if they were to your liking in store. Looks like it can only be electronics/amp or room acoustics. Is it only lacking bass at the seating position? If you walk around the room are there positions that sound good? Maybe a corner behind the speakers? If it is a bit lacking everywhere my guess is the amp but that is easy fixed too. Moon gear sells easily here and higher current/power amps don't have to be expensive that will drive your new speakers better. I would be working with the repairer and seeing what you can make happen. What was the gear used in store? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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