Gordon Macfarlane Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind particularly if you want to get off the upgrade merry go round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saunter Posted August 14, 2020 Author Share Posted August 14, 2020 Not sure i see anything that i have written that would indicate the amps are the problem.. I have heard a few Devialet set ups with various speaker model so i am pretty sure that is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saunter Posted August 14, 2020 Author Share Posted August 14, 2020 Not sure i see anything that i have written that would indicate the amps are the problem.. I have heard a few Devialet set ups with various speaker model so i am pretty sure that is not the case. Actually further to that.. Others have heard what i have and think it's pretty darn good.. It is just that i want more.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) " When playing dense tracks particularly rock things get congested and hard in the midrange. Soundstage depth and width collapses along with imaging. " This sounds exactly like an amp runing out of steam. I base this on my personal experience as a hobby ist and the 20 yrs I spent in the high-end hifi retail industry Edited August 14, 2020 by Ozcall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 Aren't the Devialet 400 watts? Even if it was 200 watts that should be plenty for the ML2's. More likely the OP is reaching the limit of what the ML2's can do being a small standmount. Especially if he is playing at volume in a decent size room. As always my recommendation is to get the biggest pair of speakers your room can handle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saunter Posted August 14, 2020 Author Share Posted August 14, 2020 Yeah, i have the 400 watt monos... never ever going to run out of steam driving ML2. I think some of it is that they are in a reasonably large room and my expectations are probably too high given they are a two way stand mount... To me, it sounds like they don't handle the power and volume i want in the room with certain types of music. On some stuff they are wonderful but when the music gets dense they of lose composure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 It's always a compromise. Nothing will "disappear" like a standmount but I prefer the scale that a large floorstander can provide. Plenty of options but I would be looking for a 3 or 4-way speaker with large format drivers. At least 2x 8 inch woofers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryO Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) Cafad recently bought his Lenehan S2 stand mounts around to my place they sounded pretty good with the Kinki Integrated which from memory is 210w. They did sound a lot better with 550w of Music Fidelity Superchargers driving them pretty hard. At no stage we’re they overdriven. Actually when the 550w Superchargers were measured by Sterophile magazine they meausred up at nearly 700w into 8ohm’s from memory, so they are not short on grunt. The OP clearly wants new speakers and that is a good thing, we all would like better speakers, but like some others I don’t know that it is the speakers at fault in this instance. Having had over 30 plus amps in my listening room with my VA speakers the one thing I can say with confidence is just because a amp is a well known highly rated brand it does not mean that it will mate well with the rest of your components, especially speakers. Some components just don’t work in combination. When I heard a Devialet Amp with my model VA speakers it sounded weak and bass light, it was a amp that I quickly discounted as a option. I hope you find the right speakers for your set up. cheers, Terry Edited August 14, 2020 by TerryO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattd2308 Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 https://www.devialet.com/en-kr/expert-pro-sam-ready-speakers/legend-acoustics/kantu-8/ Found this article, mind you, may not be in the range or type you are after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Saunter said: Yeah, i have the 400 watt monos... never ever going to run out of steam driving ML2. I think some of it is that they are in a reasonably large room and my expectations are probably too high given they are a two way stand mount... To me, it sounds like they don't handle the power and volume i want in the room with certain types of music. On some stuff they are wonderful but when the music gets dense they of lose composure. It is not about the total wattage, it is more about the balance of volts and amps. I suggest trying a good quality ,high current class A/B amp before ,perhaps , throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In the end it may be you reaching the limits of the speakers but I still suspect the power amps are at least partially responsible ,running out of steam ,given your description of the problems and my own experience with high quality equipment. Many years ago I heard a very expensive system at a pals house, at low levels or with simple music the sound was magical but the owner loved rock and when the system was cranked the effect was exactly the same as you describe. The amps were dual mono 300w Audio Research , the speakers were Duntech Princess's , the rest of the system was to the same standard. The amps with the right speakers were magical but fell over when asked to drive a low impedance load. Valves and clas D amp are sort of simmilar in their inabilty to deliver the gobs of current required to properly drive some speakers. Anyway , no horse in this race just trying to be helpfull. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 Very well could be poor synergy between the speakers and amplifier. OP, you mentioned having the speakers for the last 5 years. Have you tried different amplifiers in that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) Have been trying to think of amps to recommend trying that are avialable in Perth and I think the new Michi Stereo or mono's would be worth investigating. This is an interesting read ,if not about the specific model the OP is using : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/devialet-expert-200-amplifier-dac-and-streamer-review.12286/ Edited August 14, 2020 by Ozcall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saunter Posted August 14, 2020 Author Share Posted August 14, 2020 I have tried the Lenehans with other amps yes... I owned a Accuphase E360 which is definitely no slouch.. My wife and i listened for a couple of days before we both decided independantly the Devialet was a step up in sound quality. I liked the Accuphase and didn't want the Devialet to be better...but it was.. That was a straight 200 as well.. not the 400 i have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saunter Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 I had the opportunity to listen to some Dali Epicon 8.. It is difficult to not be very excited by what i heard. naturally the produce a much bigger sound but what i noticed immediately was a kind of silence in the music if i can put it that way. Not sure of the correct audio vocab for what i am trying to describe.. It's sort of like there is more space between the different parts of the music. I listened to some Steve Ray Vaughn at decent volume and it soundedfantastic. I was completely involved.. very enjoyable. reckon i may have found what i am after. I may regret selling the ML2 Refs since they were my first hi end ish speaker and i have a certain nostalga for them. Of course they sound darn good most of the time too... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awayward Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, Saunter said: I had the opportunity to listen to some Dali Epicon 8.. It is difficult to not be very excited by what i heard. naturally the produce a much bigger sound but what i noticed immediately was a kind of silence in the music if i can put it that way. Not sure of the correct audio vocab for what i am trying to describe.. It's sort of like there is more space between the different parts of the music. I listened to some Steve Ray Vaughn at decent volume and it soundedfantastic. I was completely involved.. very enjoyable. reckon i may have found what i am after. I may regret selling the ML2 Refs since they were my first hi end ish speaker and i have a certain nostalga for them. Of course they sound darn good most of the time too... Glad to read you may have found your new speaker. The silence you referred to is usually described as a blacker background, and generally gets blacker with better equipment, not so much the speakers IMO. Did you listen to the Dali’s in your system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 On 04/08/2020 at 6:50 PM, Peter_F said: The big problem firstly is the size of the speaker and secondly its a 2-way. If anything you must first consider a 3-way speaker if you intend to play complex and difficult music. 2-way speakers, irrespective of size, just don't cut it IMO. I think this post has some merit. I owned a Dev 400 and it drove all the speakers that I threw at it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 On 14/08/2020 at 3:55 PM, Saunter said: I have tried the Lenehans with other amps yes... I owned a Accuphase E360 which is definitely no slouch.. My wife and i listened for a couple of days before we both decided independantly the Devialet was a step up in sound quality. I liked the Accuphase and didn't want the Devialet to be better...but it was.. That was a straight 200 as well.. not the 400 i have now. Fair enough , it was just that your description of the problem you were having aligned with my experience of an amp running out of steam. Don't get too hung up on amp wattage output as 400w is not that much louder than 200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 Yeah, the Lenehans are limited because they are small two ways. As far as that sort of speaker goes they are at least as good as anything else out there, but they are certainly limited by their topology and size. There is no replacement for displacement. Larger drivers, three or four ways or more ways and that congestion with complexity and volume will disappear. You will hear a good set of big speakers three way or better and wonder how you ever managed to enjoy small two ways. Seriously. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saunter Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 1 hour ago, acg said: Yeah, the Lenehans are limited because they are small two ways. As far as that sort of speaker goes they are at least as good as anything else out there, but they are certainly limited by their topology and size. There is no replacement for displacement. Larger drivers, three or four ways or more ways and that congestion with complexity and volume will disappear. You will hear a good set of big speakers three way or better and wonder how you ever managed to enjoy small two ways. Seriously. Yess, beginning to appreciate that after just a first listen.. I do wonder if there are elements of the standmount two way sound i will miss after a while though.,. In any case it doesn't matter because i am comitted to the larger floorstanding route now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, Saunter said: I do wonder if there are elements of the standmount two way sound i will miss after a while though.,. Other than standmounts being able to "disappear".....You will miss nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awayward Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, kelossus said: Other than standmounts being able to "disappear".....You will miss nothing. You may miss the near no box/cabinet influence on the sound. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiiiii Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 Probably take your amps and hook them up to the Dali to confirm before you commit? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acg Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 14 hours ago, Saunter said: Yess, beginning to appreciate that after just a first listen.. I do wonder if there are elements of the standmount two way sound i will miss after a while though.,. In any case it doesn't matter because i am comitted to the larger floorstanding route now. Point source speakers do have advantages in a lot of setups. This advantage is in regards to how sound is radiated into the room and the frequency composition of the room reflections you hear at the listening position. I do not know how good Mikes speakers are at this, but I would say that they are decent because he is a smart guy and spends a lot of time on his crossovers and baffle shapes, but he rarely mentions constant directivity or dispersion when you talk to him, so I would think it likely there are more optimal speakers available in this regard. How much this is an important thing for you will depend on your room and how it is laid out. As @awaywardsays, Lenehan seakers are optimised to minimise cabinet resonances and their effect on sound which you may or may not miss with larger speakers, depending on what you end up with, but when you move to lower excursion drivers the cabinet resonances although still important just do not seems as important as in a smaller speaker where the driver has to move much further to get the SPL. As far as disappearing speakers goes...standmounts are not the only ones that can get this done. The effect needs capable (i.e. not broken) well designed stereo speakers well setup in the room with an appropriate listening position. My speakers are 2.4m tall and disappear convincingly. When I had Lenehan speakers they were very good at disappearing, more flexible than the giants I have now because they are more ideal point sources, but if you go big odds are that you will either have to listen in the near-field as I do, or far enough away that they become a point source (probably this option). There is no reason why you cannot go big and go true point source...something like the PSE-144's or other synergy type horns will get this done. It then just depends if these speakers float your boat or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops110 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 @Saunter Hit me up if you would be keen to pop round for a listen. Always good to listen to as many different speakers and combinations before making a purchase. I’ve got Audio Physic Classic 20’s I think they disappear quite well, I’ve had some fairly decent standmounts but they can’t compete with the Classic 20’s for scale and bass weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloth Ears Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) On 04/08/2020 at 2:03 PM, Saunter said: Hello everyone. I have been using Lenehan ML2 Reference for around 5 years and am now looking to upgrade. Amplification is Devialet LE 400 and music is 99% streamed through ROON with an occasional disk played through an Oppo 103AU (not much chop really) The Lenehans have been good mostly but there are areas where they can definitely be improved upon and i have always felt they really aren't letting me hear what the Devialets are capable of. When playing dense tracks particularly rock things get congested and hard in the midrange. Soundstage depth and width collapses along with imaging. Granted sometimes that will be down to recording quality. So recently i have begun to think about upgrading the speakers and am considering Dali Epicon 6 floorstanders. I think they will match the LE 400s better in terms of sensetivity and impedence although i am not sure if that matters much with the Devialet extemely low output impedence. Has anyone heard the Dali Epicon 6 with Devialet amps ? Or any other amp and can give some impressions of their (Dali's) performance across all types of music. The only stuff i don't listen to is Country and Western, Thrash metal and the like and also Rap.....everything else is on the menu.. There are some great deals on the Dali Epicon 6 atm due to a change in distributorship and there is an opportunity to level up so to speak that i otherwise could not afford atm. Thoughts ? Thanks very much. Have you considered a good active crossover and a good pair of sub-woofers? That should give the ML2's a chance to sing, without them running out of the ability to fill the room. If that's definitely not your path...but if it's a possibility then it might work out better than a new pair of speakers. Edited August 17, 2020 by Cloth Ears Include O/P 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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