Upgrade from Lenehan ML2 Reference

[Saunter]

 

Hello everyone.

 

I have been using Lenehan ML2 Reference for around 5 years and am now looking to upgrade.

Amplification is Devialet LE 400 and music is 99% streamed through ROON with an occasional disk played through an Oppo 103AU (not much chop really)

 

The Lenehans have been good mostly but there are areas where they can definitely be improved upon and i have always felt they really aren't letting me hear what the Devialets are capable of. When playing dense tracks particularly rock things get congested and hard in the midrange. Soundstage depth and width collapses along with imaging. Granted sometimes that will be down to recording quality.

 

So recently i have begun to think about upgrading the speakers and am considering Dali Epicon 6 floorstanders. I think they will match the LE 400s better in terms of sensetivity and impedence although i am not sure if that matters much with the Devialet extemely low output impedence. 

 

Has anyone heard the Dali Epicon 6 with Devialet amps ? Or any other amp and can give some impressions of their (Dali's) performance across all types of music.

The only stuff  i don't listen to is Country and Western, Thrash metal and the like and also Rap.....everything else is on the menu..

 

There are some great deals on the Dali Epicon 6 atm due to a change in distributorship and there is an opportunity to level up so to speak that i otherwise could not afford atm.

 

Thoughts ?

 

Thanks very much.

[Ittaku]

Helps to know your budget for new speakers before making any recommendations Bear in mind you should be able to sell your ML2s here for a reasonable price since they're well respected.

[Saunter]

More Info,

 

Room is 4.8 meters wide by 7 meters long. 

Speakers are currently 90 cm from the rear wall and 2.5 apart with my listening position around 2.8 from the speakers.

 

Budget is around 10k with the idea being to get more value by buying a run out model, ex demo or second hand which would be between 14 - 20 k retail.

 

Cheers 

[gemini07]

Recommending speakers to match an amp is always problematic, especially without knowing what  specific improvements you are looking for. In any case, your room is quite big so a floor stander is probably the right way to go.

 

Have you considered EagleEye's Lenehan ML3's? Lots more bass, scale and sound stage than your ML2's, and also lots of change from your ten grand.. And he is in Perth. That would also give you an idea of what the other Lenehan floor standers could do.

 

You could also consider some of the Osborn range, especially the Epitome models:

 

https://www.osbornloudspeakers.com.au/osborn-stereo-speakers

 

Australian made speakers are unbeatable for value and the sound quality is excellent IMO. I'm sure there is a separate thread around on Aussie speaker manufacturers somewhere.

 

[Ittaku]

That's a sizeable room. I'd recommend one of the Goldenear floorstanders, like the Triton One R which scale well with large rooms and generous amplification/volumes.

https://sydneyhifimonavale.com.au/collections/goldenear-technology/products/goldenear-triton-one-r-floorstanding-speakers

[Cafad]

Just to act as devils advocate here. 

Considering the speakers and the fact that you have truckloads of high end amplification on tap have you considered trying listening to one of those songs that doesn't satisfy you from several different sites/files/sources just to find out if it is the quality of the recordings.  Because if it is then you could save a very pretty penny (or even 2) for quite a small investment in time.

[Ray H]

I owned the Dali Epicon 6 for around two years. Which for me (being in constant component flux normally), was an eternity.

 

I now have kii3/BXT which are around 6 times the price of the Dali’s.

 

Sound wise I think they are severely underrated in Australia. From a passive speaker perspective I have pretty much been a Dynaudio user. But when I purchased them, they were second hand and I had Dyn C2 platinum’s. The Epicon 6 sounded better to me, they had better bass, more body and were just easier to listen too. The C2 need a bigger room than the Epicon 6 also, so room wise they are a bit agnostic, they just require a bit of space into the room.

 

The one thing I did learn was that the Epicon, like most good speakers, scale well with better amps. But I couldn’t help but feel they need at least 200 + good watts to truly get the best out of them. I actually heard them with a Nuforce 200 watt class d integrated amp and they sounded great, which for some reason surprised me as the Nuforce isn’t particularly expensive.

 

The other positive for the Epicon is the build/finish. I have seen and owned quite a few speakers and the Epicon build and finish is easily one of the best around for sane money. I would go so far as to say it is the best finish of any speaker I have owned.

Probably the only real negative is that they are designed to be listened too with next to no toe-in towards the listener.if you do the traditional triangle placement they will sound a little aggressive in the top end, but just slightly toed in, ie outside the ears of the listening position, they sound neutral and detailed.

 

The ruby macassar and walnut finishes are beautiful in the flesh, pictures don’t do them justice.

 

i have no notable experience with the Devialet amps, but knowing the class D Nuforce worked well, makes me believe the Devialet would likely be a very good combo, noting the power and descriptors I have read about its sound signature.
 

 

[Tim D]

That’s some nicely finished speakers!

[Saunter]

Thanks to everyone who has responed and especially Ray H for answering specifically regarding the Dali Epicon 6.

Hearing that they were prefered over Dynauduo C2 and were great class D amplification is a positive endorsement then some.

 

Question for RayH if you remember..... how are they for imaging, layering, soudstage depth and width ?

 

I am sure that the deficiencies i am hearing in the sound described in my first post are not due to recording quality.

They are either WAV files i ripped directly from the best CD sources i could find, or remastered and or HiRez files.

 

The value of Aussie made speakers can not be questioned that is for sure and i will look into some of the suggestions.

I can also listen to the Golden Ear models in Perth as well.

 

I did think about Eagleeyes ML3 but if the signature is similar through the mid range i would probably end up feeling about them as i do my Ref 2.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

 

[Ray H]

@Saunter

 

in a word, “great”.

 

Soundstaging and layering is one of the C2’s strengths IME, But the Epicon 6 was as good in this respect. Probably slightly less tall image than the C2 (when you look at the two speakers it seems obvious as to why noting the height and positioning of the drivers on each of the speakers) but width and projection into the room are great.

 

Edit; by the way another speaker to consider is the PMC 25.26, that midrange driver is great.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Ray H

[awayward]

I have found that my ML2s respond to whatever is sent to them, yes it’s a stupid statement really, and I’ve experienced some average sound recently due to other factors, but that is a good thing. Basically any deficiencies elsewhere will be reflected, I.e. source, cables, amp etc, so I would suggest trying to get an in home demo for your preferred new speakers, perhaps it is not the ML2s.

[Saunter]

Thanks agin... 

 

[jt301]

Hey @Saunter, I have a remarkably similar system with similar broad tastes in music in a room only slightly smaller than yours. You also mention an interest in Aussie speakers.  The speakers I use are the Whatmough P33 signatures.

 

One of the downsides of Aussie speakers is they’re usually not useable with SAM. From memory VAF speakers maybe an exception though.

[Saunter]

Yep SAM is something i would like to take advantage of if possible. 

 

I know that the Epicon 6 are SAMable...

[Peter_F]

6 hours ago, Saunter said:

When playing dense tracks particularly rock things get congested and hard in the midrange. Soundstage depth and width collapses along with imaging. Granted sometimes that will be down to recording quality.

The big problem firstly is the size of the speaker and secondly its a 2-way.  If anything you must first consider a 3-way speaker if you intend to play complex and difficult music.  2-way speakers, irrespective of size, just don't cut it IMO.  

[Al.M]

Lookout for any of these new or used if the amp is able to drive them like ATC40, VAF I-66 or 93, Harbeth, Kef Ref 1 or 3 etc.

 

 

 

[Pops110]

I would have a look at Audio Physic as well. Simply Hifi here in Perth have them. It looks like quite a lot of the range is SAM ready. 

[emulator]

On 04/08/2020 at 7:46 PM, jt301 said:

One of the downsides of Aussie speakers is they’re usually not useable with SAM. From memory VAF speakers maybe an exception though.

The Lenehan ML5 Refs have been SAMd. The positive difference SAM makes on the speakers I've heard it used with is not insignificant.  Vast improvements in bass character, extension and the overall tone of the music. Very clever stuff.

 

The ML2s seem to sound best with music with fast transients and space in the music. I will agree with that. I'd love to hear the ML2 Refs with SAM. Wonderful speakers. I can only imagine how good they'd sound with that treatment.

 

I've not got mine totally dialled position wise yet, but one of the two niggles I have is that at low/casual listening volumes, the bass that is abundantly present at higher volumes is a bit repressed (it is there but it's not as prominent in the overall character). SAM I've found makes a big difference to this aspect, regardless of fussy positioning speakers. Might be a while until the French Devialet lab team can come over here and lab the speakers tho...

Edited August 7, 2020 by emulator

[Saunter]

Yeah i have been hoping the ML2 Refs would appear SAMed one day or that SAM Lab would get to Perth and i could get it done but that looks like it just isn't going to happen. Devialet seem to be slowing down SAMing speakers.

 

I agree with you about the low volume listening, they really do need some juice to come alive but i gotta say when they do the bass is pretty darn good for a speaker that size. They are also much better with the likes of Cassandra Wilson and Dexter Gordon than Led Zeppelin. They do surprise with well done electronica though.

 

How much are ML5 Ref's ?

 

James

[Mord]

last time I heard the ML5 ref were 24k,that was around a year ago 

[Cardiiiii]

5 hours ago, Mord said:

last time I heard the ML5 ref were 24k,that was around a year ago 

But go for under $10k on the used market. 

[Saunter]

So,

 

I have a had a listern to some Golden Ear Triton's..

Good good sound.. but to my eyes at least...man they are ugly.. still sound should trump all so i may end up there.

The price for the reference is still quite away above what i want to spend though.

 

I thought i might like Dynaudios so listened to Contour 30s. Pretty good and physically a nice size in my room.

I thought the Tritons sounded better though, especially lower midrange down...

 

Waiting to here some Dali's since they are coming back in to W.A.. In the mean time the Epicon 6 i had my eye on are gone.

At less than half the price of new and a demo pair that is not surprising. There are some Epicon 8 available but that is really stretching the budget... They may also be physically bigger than i want in my room. Not as tall as the Tritons but wider and i think will be more visually dominant. Also the cheap ones available are Piono Black rather than the gorgeous looking woodgrain. The Epicon 8 get some tremendous reviews -- yes i am aware they are usually just glorified advertisments.

Cheap for the performance etc... and at full price so if i can land them for 50% they will probably perform better than anything i could otherwise afford.

 

There were some ATC SCM40 available in the classifieds which i nearly rashly pulled the trigger on very quickly. They were cheap. I think i did the right thing in not buying them since talking with other Devialet owners who have tried older ATC speakers. They sound good but it sounds as though the signature is not really what i am after.

 

The speakers i listened to wer not with Devialet amps so ???

 

I see there are a pair of Pioneer S-3EX available on Audiomart... All the research indicates they are tremendous being a TAD lite.. and they are cheap at $3,800... any body heard them ? I have found a review of the larger S-EX1 which makes them sound like an absolute steel with terrific sound quality. 

 

Anyway, that is where i am at for now.. I have 100% decided that the ML2 Reference are going.

They are in Piano black and come with a set of stands from Mike. Each speaker with Stand weighs 76kg

I weighed them....

 

James

 

 

[Ittaku]

38 minutes ago, Saunter said:

I have a had a listern to some Golden Ear Triton's..

Good good sound.. but to my eyes at least...man they are ugly.. still sound should trump all so i may end up there.

The price for the reference is still quite away above what i want to spend though.

Glad you liked them (audibly at least). I think they're often overlooked but are something really special when set up correctly.

[Gordon Macfarlane]

From you description it sounds to me more like an amp issue than the speakers.

[Cafad]

Just now, Ozcall said:

From you description it sounds to me more like an amp issue than the speakers.

I've been thinking that for a while now, but Jame's heart seems to be set on new speakers and it just seems cruel to try to talk someone out of something they really, really want.