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horze

Rear speakers, atmos speakers, home theatre setup advice + opinions

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Hey guys, hope everyone is well in these troubled times
Wondering if i can get some help from some of you gurus please
Sorry if there is too much detail in the post.. i thought the more the better to make it easier

Currently building theatre room at my parents place.
We are looking at doing 7 channel, 4 heights, 1 or 2 sub
They will mainly use it for movies, and occasionally for music... We are building the room more for movies.

Alot of the items we have decided on, clarification that im on the right track would be great

Sony VPL - VW260ES 4k projector
150 inch screen
HTPC + blue ray player
Anthem MRX-1120 - 11 channel amp

Paradigm Premier 800F (fronts)
Paradigm Premier 600C (center)
Paradigm Surround 3 90% decided (surround) or Premier 200B (10%) advice on this please
Paradigm Premier 200B 90% decided (rear) or Surround 3 or 1 (10%) advice on this please

Paradigm CI Home H55-R (5.5inch) or CI Home H65-R (6.5inch) or CI Home H65-A (angled 6.5inch) or CI Home H65-SM (6.5inch with dual directional tweeter) As you can see i need lots of advice on this one

Paradigm Subs Defiance V10 (300w RMS) , or Defiance X10 x 2 (120w RMS) (combined 240w RMS)

We are unsure if we should go 2 x less powerful sub, or 1 powerful sub
We are leaning more towards 2 x less powerful subs, recommendations please.
I get mixed answers regarding 1 vs 2 subs from everywhere.. Some say 1 large sub, you can feel it more, some say 2 is a little more balanced in the room.
Even with the 2x less powerful subs however, the RMS isnt as large as the same more powerful X10.

The fronts i think im good (correct angle)

Now the center is going to be very low... i know this isnt good.. but have no choice as dad wants the 150 screen. So dad is building a little shelf for it, that the speaker will sit on and it will be angled to help.

The surround speakers by paradigm are multi directional, so this is why im unsure if picking them for the surround is correct idea, as it throws the angles out from Dolby recommendations? But with the setup it might be a good thing. I have talked dad in putting these lower in height than we were intending too... prob still not low enough.. but i think it will be ok. Angle is at 100 degrees

Same theory with the rears, hence why im leaning towards bookshelfs to keep the angle tighter.
The rears i need huge help on. Im unsure if to put behind the seat or more towards the corner of room. The angles dolby recommends are showing me more towards corner of room.
But it feels like the corners are so busy with speakers that you wont know where the sound is coming from.
I feel like the sound should come from behind you? or am i wrong here. Angle undecided
With dolby recommendations - the rears should be in light green on my drawing. In Brown they are outside of Dolby angle recommendation

To add to the confusion, Dolby shows on page 36 - atmos is in between rear and surround. But on page 8, the atmos are now before rear and surround

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

The atmos........ im loosing my hair on.. i think im on the right track but need clarification Currently at 45 degree and same separation from MLP for front atmos and rear atmos

The atmos speakers are about 250-200mm in towards screen than the front speakers. Best i can get it unfortunely

Im hoping the diagram i made can help.
Also please see spreadsheet for details/lengths angles All in metric
Photos attached (The RED ladder is the back wall), the screen is marked with small pieces of blue masking tape
(big thankyou to the guy who spent time making the spreadsheet template)
and thankyou in advance for taking the time to read and post

dimensions.png

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IMG_9295.JPG

IMG_9296.JPG

IMG_9297.JPG

IMG_9298.JPG

IMG_9299.JPG

IMG_9300.JPG

IMG_9301.JPG

second.png

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Posted (edited)

wow thats a alot.. are you having 3 rows of seating? thats a lot imo for the sound to be even in all seats.

 

i can only go by my 2 rows of seating in a basic ht room (non atmos).. rears do not put them in the corners as they should be inside the "line" of the fronts.

 

sides.. this may be interesting over 3 rows but not much choice other than in the middle of the 2nd row.

 

subs.. imo you must get 2 subs in that room, minimum 12" with one at the front and one behind seating. definately would not be buying a 10" 120w sub and a $2000 10" sub.. sorry that room needs bigger. consider buying 2 of these.. http://deephzaudio.com/Specials.html $1650 each. 15" drivers from PSA will do the room justice.

 

in a dedicated HT room subs and centre are the most important, the other speakers come after they are chosen.

Edited by hopefullguy

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the sony with feeble output will struggle with 150" screen....something scale of this probably want 570es or one of the JVCs and a scope screen anyways would have thought ? only blu-ray player ? thought go uhd ? 

 

is this putting main listening position (front seat) in middle of room... id try avoid unless is mid row thats aimed to be 2/3rd room depth and optimised for ? 

 

need bigger sub/s up front... if want use existing ones down back ...in paradigm id go a couple of their 15" prestige or something of ilk.... its a large room ...

 

focus on setting up surrounds for either front row or middle row... which ever is preference to optimise for ....

 

with 3 rows consider something like 9.2.6

 

or 9.2.4 and dont care about rear row...

 

definitely get best centre and sub can where possible as per advice above...

 

 

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Initial impression:

Nice big room room, with a rectangle shape, until I saw the need for three rows - could be tight. And it won't be possible for everyone to get the same sonic bubble.

If you can use the Premier all round that's nice. 

Directional tweeters for the in ceiling ones are a good idea.

IMO, two subs work better in a bass response. You may get less impact, but the quality will be better. That's me.

 

Oh, I did notice you have an extra roaming German woofer... that counts those the mids and highs only though... :D 

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Thanks for the posts all

Hopefullguy: and alot of headaches🤣

Yep!.. i tried to talk them out of the 3 rows.. but they are thinking future (me, brother and sister with familys.. dont get me started please) lol

I fully agree, the sound is not going to optimal for every seat in the room, the idea is to try and get it as good as we can considering what we have to work with.

I did have 6 seats setup (2 seats on each row), and the projector up as we fine tuned the heights. I had my Yamaha ns 777's there, the paradigm premiere 600c (which is quite large) and a couple of old Jamo surround speakers, and my YST 515 Yamaha.. It didnt sound too bad TBH. The sub was def lacking though. It sounded good, but i had it on full blast.

 

About the rears... that is what has confused me the most. Have a look at the dolby guide link i posted... On page 8 it shows the rears  closer to wall than the atmos and front left and right... but then on page 36... its shows the rears closer to the center than the atmos and front left and right... im thinking maybe it doesnt matter if its outer of inner of the fronts and atmos... and highly dependent on the angle from MLP... im not sure.. im scratching my head on that one

 

The sides, are the multi directional surrounds,, so they should help for the 3 rows im thinking?

 

With the subs... not sure if u mis understood me or i have mis understood you.. if i went 2 i was looking at going 2 x of the 120w rms.. not 1 of each..  

Im not going to be able to get the subs at the front... they are going to have to go on the rears... is this going to make much difference? i thought it didnt matter too much with subs.

I will def take your advice about the larger subs. So even 2 x the expensive X10's wont cut it im guessing? They are 300 RMS each... Or when you mean side.. you mean physical woofer size, and not so much the power?

 

Betty boop: I did have the projector setup. and it seemed good? anything i should be looking for in what your mentioning?

"is this putting main listening position (front seat) in middle of room... id try avoid unless is mid row thats aimed to be 2/3rd room depth and optimised for ?"  : Sorry this part has confused me

Ill have a look at the Prestige... another person mentioned SVS subs?

The surrounds current position should be ok for front and second i think.. as its just behind second row.. correct?

 

Petetherock: defenitely right... all seats wont be optimise.. But i picked the centre of the middle row as the MLP, as i thought... its better for all seats to be a little out, instead of having 1 row of great seats and 2 rows of bad seats?

"If you can use the Premier all round that's nice.  " : Defenitely will be using premiere all round except for the sourrands ..Do you think ditch the paradigm sourrand 3 and go premiere bookshelf instead?

 

Directional tweeters... like these?

https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-ceiling-speakers/ci-home-h65-a

These ones are angled

 

https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-ceiling-speakers/ci-home-h65-sm

or these.. these are dual directional

 

"Oh, I did notice you have an extra roaming German woofer... that counts those the mids and highs only though... :D"  Oh man that made me laugh.. I need a good laugh after the headaches of this room. You should see her going up and down the platforms 🤣 Its like a playground for her

 

Thanks heaps for your posts :D

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Posted (edited)

i was referring to the woofer size. i would not bother with a sub+10" woofer no matter the watts.

 

nothing wrong with both subs behind your seating imo. i run 1 front and 1 rear and it works well.

 

yes its difficult helping others when they dont listen to you haha

 

as posted for HT 1 big centre 2 good subs.. the rest after.

 

if you use actual rear speakers i would still be inclined to mount the "rear" speakers inside the line of the front. with atmos the sides, rears, even fronts are basically at the same tweeter level. i actually raise my front speakers off the floor to being the tweeter to about 1/3rd up the screen.

 

the centre will be very low and i honestly feel i would not like sitting in that 3rd row. have you thought of an acoustically transparent screen just so the centre can be mounted better. from another member these are not too shabby and they can customise the size for you.. just an idea. you can keep the fronts as is or put them behind as well, raised up of course.

 

Class a audio.. visualax AT screen

 

sorry forgot.. NO i would not buy those 2 120w subs OR the 1x bigger sub you posted.

 

 

Edited by hopefullguy

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8 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

the centre will be very low and i honestly feel i would not like sitting in that 3rd row. have you thought of an acoustically transparent screen just so the centre can be mounted better. from another member these are not too shabby and they can customise the size for you.. just an idea. you can keep the fronts as is or put them behind as well, raised up of course.

or scope screen...its one of the pitfalls of going large 16:9...centre ends up practically at floor firing at shins ...or if elevated in seating at your toes :D 

 

1 hour ago, horze said:

Betty boop: I did have the projector setup. and it seemed good? anything i should be looking for in what your mentioning?

~

hi horze...just wont be possible with the 260ES to get UHD output to any sort of level for HDR... yes get by on SDR blu-ray/DVD and 12-16FL need...some folk get by with less 9fl and such feel quite good enough...but with HDR you want 22(very least calibrated) to 30FL (100nits) more ideally... just not possible with the sony and 150" what to look for ? check with a light meter what light level achieving at centre of screen... should be as per above...

 

1 hour ago, horze said:

is this putting main listening position (front seat) in middle of room... id try avoid unless is mid row thats aimed to be 2/3rd room depth and optimised for ?

 

the middle of room is likely worst place audio wise (generally a big null there for bass) want to move yourself (main listening position) to around 2/3rd room depth which sonically works well for audio ... out also means you can gets you well setup for picture and setup of surrounds around you particularly if going 3D audio with heights as doesnt mean all speakers are all on top of each other...

 

3 rows might be overkill... not sure what driving that... is it necessary ? 

1 hour ago, horze said:

Ill have a look at the Prestige... another person mentioned SVS subs?

The surrounds current position should be ok for front and second i think.. as its just behind second row.. correct?

the paradigms go low are very clean, punchy and controlled... can definitely look at SVS they tend to aim more in output side of things....

 

 

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sorry hope i didnt give impression of anti paradigm subs, just not 10" subs 🙂

 

can you post the room size, it may not be as big as it looks. how far is the front row to that proposed 150" 16:9 screen?

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25 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

sorry hope i didnt give impression of anti paradigm subs, just not 10" subs 🙂

paradigm make stunning subs always have eg going back to their servo15 20 years ago....id go with paradigm but yeah not 10" :D

 

26 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

can you post the room size, it may not be as big as it looks. how far is the front row to that proposed 150" 16:9 screen?

agree its not really clear dimensions and am a bit confused myself given the sort of drawing where focus is with main listening position ...

 

 

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7 hours ago, horze said:

I feel like the sound should come from behind you?

Think about it like this.

 

If you had (for arguments sake) speaker positions where the subwoofers are (the blue diamonds) ..... These two speakers playing together, can create sound which appears to come from the red box (ie. directly behind you).

 

So, as long as the speakers are behind you.....  they can make sound appear to come from "far behind you".     Moving them to be phycailly further behind you won't "help".     What will help, is putting them exactly where dolby expects them...... as that will let the processor create the effect the best.

 

Quote

About the rears... that is what has confused me the most. Have a look at the dolby guide link i posted... On page 8 it shows the rears  closer to wall than the atmos and front left and right... but then on page 36... its shows the rears closer to the center

When you look at the all the possible angles.... it could be either.

 

For you, I would (staying within the permitted angles) push the front height as far forward as possible.... to get them closer to equidistant from the front (LR) and the MLP.     Back heights look about right.

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To TS
Ideally all channels should use the same tweeter if not the same speaker.

Directional, as in the tweeter can point towards your MLP.

I use Anthony Gallo Micros and A'Divas because they can be screwed onto the ceiling and I can swivel them quite easily. They are spaced at the same width as my fronts, and point towards my MLP but not too directly actually. 

IMO, it's ok to use another brand for these channels if there isn't an equivalent one. 

I would suggest spending more on the front three, especially the centre and the brace of subs you're planning


Buy The Best Subs You Can Afford :)

 

You won't regret it.

 

As for the seating, yes avoid having the MLP right in the centre - about 2/3 back is good. If the seats aren't going to be used much, I won't elevate the last two rows too much or else the centre will appear too low. And the centre, along with the subs underpin the entire HT experience. 

 

image.thumb.png.4532cb614712841085e1787155536037.png

 

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Posted (edited)

Heaps of good info in here!

Give you's some room sizes to make a little easier to understand

Room size 5.4metres x 7.43m

MLP is currently set at 4.6m from screen

So (7.43/3) X 2 = 4.95M   = so My MLP should be at 4.95m by right?     Means i am 350mm too forward

Front row to screen.... i have to check that one i dont know top of my head

 

If there is any measurements you want.. let me know

 

hopefullguy Spoke to dad about the subs.. looks like we going 12 or 15 inch. :)

and you guys recommend still going 2 even with the 12's or 15s?

 

Thanks Betty boop for that info.. I wont be able to check that now till the room is done.. but the screen will be the very last thing we do.. so i will see how it is.. and decrease the size of the screen if its not looking good.

If it was my choose believe me, wouldnt be doing 3 rows. Its my parents hope that their grandparents soon. dont get me started.

 

im not happy with the center height either... i will try to shrink the screen size as much as we can at the end.. Currently its at 330mm from floor.. i know its low

 

Davewantsmore

Your explanation is brilliant. So dolby's angles for rears which is 135 to 150 ends up being the light green lines on my drawing... so you recommend put them there?

The only thing by putting the rears in the light green line areas is it wont be on the inner line of front L & R as hopefullguy mentioned

 

"push the front height as far forward as possible.... to get them closer to equidistant from the front (LR) and the ML" Lost me here though. What equal distances am i trying to get here?

 

Petetherock Love that Atmos is in the house sign :D

Edited by horze

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14 minutes ago, horze said:

Thanks Betty boop for that info.. I wont be able to check that now till the room is done.. but the screen will be the very last thing we do.. so i will see how it is.. and decrease the size of the screen if its not looking good.

If it was my choose believe me, wouldnt be doing 3 rows. Its my parents hope that their grandparents soon. dont get me started.

looks a blank wall now.. so if have the projector can sit it on a ladder and throw an image up on the wall :) this is best ways to test things ... before ponying up for a screen that end up finding is wrong size ...

 

re the centre you dont want it so low ! 

 

a scope screen as mention will help you go big in screen but narrow so centre can go up higher up ...

 

otherwise consider an AT screen... maybe one of the krix walls or something :D 

 

ps re the dolby recommendations for speaker locations just stick within  the angles ... not much else to it ... and optimise it for your main listening position :) 

 

with such a large room id definitely suggest a 9.2.4 or 9.2.6 if want full coverage of 3 rows.... check dolby site for recommendations to suit for speaker locations they suggest...

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TS : you can find that sign off ebay or other websites..

I like the SVS SB 2000 pro, which I find to be a good place to begin.

I use two JL Audio E112s and I can't find their limits ... good gear you'll keep for years.. 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry but I think there are way too many issues with your current layout. If its not too late I would stop work and go back to the planning stage.

 

You need an Acoustically transparent to get the centre speaker up high enough for the rear seats to hear it. A DIY spandex screen is cheap and easy to do.

You may need to lower the height of the seat risers otherwise there will not be enough separation between height speakers and ear level speakers. How high are your ceilings and risers ?

You need more surrounds to cover all 3 rows. I assume you have bipole srrounds which work well for 2 rows but will leave the middle row (the MLP) in a compromised position. 

As mentioned the ear level speaker should have the tweeter (funnily enough) at ear level.

You need 6 heights to cover all 3 rows

Angled tweeters for height speakers are not recommended if you want perfect sound - get speakers with the entire driver angled or if you go 6 down firing with really good dispersion may be better option.

Having all speakers exactly identical is a huge improvement and highly recommended.

Trying to get 3 rows of seating adds enormously to the equipment needed and the expense for what may not be fully used all that often. Maybe better to do one row of 5 seats and do bar seating behind and bean bag seating in front for the kids. Could get away with 7.1.4 that way.

When using the Dolby guidelines ignore their drawings which are not accurate - use the angles only, as they are accurate and the only way to get everything in the right location in your room. 

You will need 2 good subs at least - 4 would be better in that sized room 😉

 

All of the above is taken from my experience building and enjoying my 6.3x4.3x2.7 room

Edited by niterida

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Posted (edited)

i think i can speak for the majority here and actually any other forum.

 

that room should have 2 subs.. thats 2 subwoofers... ie: 1+1... or just buy 1 sub and then go out and buy another sub but dont tell the first one.. 🙂

 

the front seating distance will matter if the screen is too large from that position and your eyes are forced to move all the time. it will then make the front row disliked, un used and a waste of money.. cant have that.

 

sorry but for movies ported subs work better as long as placed/EQ'd correctly

 

niterida.. the screen i mentioned previously is not a expensive one.. sub $900? and would be an alternative to DIY. but yes i also am liking your venture into spandex, so to speak haha

Edited by hopefullguy

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Perhaps TS, you consider a setup that caters to four seats, and let the others be extras?

If they are only filled on the odd occasion, then there's no need for risers.

Place the screen a tad higher if you can to allow the centre to sit under it, but honestly an acoustically transparent screen will help to no end..

 

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can i be a bit picky? ok

 

seems the riser is a no compromise thing. normally a riser would go from one side of the room to the other, this one cant on one side due to sliding door and cant at the rear due to the door. your 3rd section is very high for anyone actually walking on it, falls will happen.

 

i first built a riser similar, fell off and re built it so it covers the full back of room area. i think some thought to modifying the sides for safety needs to be done.

 

 

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Yes good pickup ... dark ... steps ... no hand rails... it’s like podium

 

I’ve seen strip lighting used but will also kill contrast 

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12 hours ago, horze said:

"push the front height as far forward as possible.... to get them closer to equidistant from the front (LR) and the ML" Lost me here though. What equal distances am i trying to get here?

When you look at the dolby layout, you will notice that the front heights are ~ mid-way between the MLP and the LCR.

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

When you look at the dolby layout, you will notice that the front heights are ~ mid-way between the MLP and the LCR.

 

Sorry but that is not what you are trying to achieve. The ideal location is at 45deg elevation from MLP - whether that is midway between MLP and LCR or not is immaterial. It may look that way in the Dolby drawing but every room will be different and you should use the angles not the "look" of the Dolby drawing.

What you do want is the MLP midway between front and rear heights.

 

But also remember the Dolby guidelines are just that - it will probably sound good no matter where you put them (within reason)  but just maybe not as good as it could :) 

Edited by niterida

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3 minutes ago, niterida said:

you should use the angles not the "look" of the Dolby drawing.

100% on this !

 

the diagrams are just that diagrams... diagrammatic... illustrative... the angles as recommendations  is where its at ! 

 

there is a fair bit of lee way in the angles though between front and rear so should be easily achievable for most... ie would need to really have a mess or screw up to get wrong. I personally think achievable for OP...

 

 

5 minutes ago, niterida said:

What you do want is the MLP midway between front and rear heights.

absolutely .... thats a given,  though given 3 rows and the large spread of listeners would be worthy considering 7.1.6 ...

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9 hours ago, niterida said:

Sorry but that is not what you are trying to achieve. The ideal location is at 45deg elevation from MLP

Yes, that is correct..... however within the stated angles, you can choose to move (say) 10 degrees away.... which in a high aspect ratio room (eg. if it is long, or if the roof is low) .... it can make an extreme difference as to where the height speaker ends up with respect to the distance between the LCR and LMP.

 

Balancing this ensures that spatial location using front and top is correct.

9 hours ago, niterida said:

whether that is midway between MLP and LCR or not is immaterial.

No, that incorrect  (immaterial being a very very strong word).

 

Sometimes (in a high aspect ratio room) a small change in angle (witin the stated angles, of course) can make a huge difference to where the speaker ends up.

9 hours ago, niterida said:

It may look that way in the Dolby drawing but every room will be different and you should use the angles

That's correct.    Use the angles.    45 (+/-15) .... being in that range is very important.   45 is ideal..... but sometimes the +/-15 can make an extreme difference (and this should be considered).

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Sorry for the delayed reply guys, melbourne has been a little crazy last few days and trying to get as much as work done before we go in a heavier lock down.

Thanks all for your replys and knowledge

Looks like i got some work to do.

All the steps for the raisers have downfacing LED strips that can be dimmed right down enough just so you can see the steps... i seen that problem when dad was building it... and lights is my expertise so i wired them up. The sides of these will be the seats so it should be ok

This CC channel is my main concern it seems. So with a scope screen. It keeps the horizontal scale the same, but cuts a little off the top and the bottom of the image? is that what a scope screen does? Meaning you might gain eg 100mm on top and 100mm on bottom?

 

While the 6 heights sounds great... i think we are going to stick to the 4 heights. In reality its the middle row that we are trying to cater for the most.

 

Def decided on 2 subs. And pretty sure it will be 2 x 12's and possibly 2 x 15's.

With the angles of dolby, the rear speakers should go in the light green lines area.

The side/sourrands, im going to get the bipolar.

The rears if they are going in the light green line area, would you stick to bipolar again or mono bookshelf?

 

Niterida do you mean these types for the heights?

https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-ceiling-speakers/ci-home-h65-sm

https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-ceiling-speakers/ci-home-h65-a

 

Ceilings are 9 foot (2.7m).. First raiser from memory is .5m

Oh man i hate this room 😂

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Save$$ on the extra ceiling speakers and put it towards subs.

A very value sub will be the Hsu VTF, and the SVS SB 2000 pro isn't shabby.

I like the JL audio E112

 

Oh, be careful where you place the drivers for the LED light strips. The strips last, but the drivers may need replacement.

Also do consider adding some strips behind your kit so you can see your kit easily and when you swop cables etc.

 

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